Verse for "once saved always saved"?

[eternally-gratefull]

Mixing law and grace confuses so many believers...we must learn to rightly divide the word of God.

Human nature (the flesh) refuses to humble itself to the point it can submit to the fact that they are unable to help itself. Human nature says it must work and make up for its own crimes (if it admits to any crimes at all) so the th0ought of GRACE and MERCY and LOVE (Gods love) is a foreign concept to the flesh. Which is why it is foolishness to those who are not his.

 

[Lighthearted]

Yes...true...and ha!...you even have scripture as your signature that pretty much sums it up that His grace is sufficient! Romans 8:1

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes...true...and ha!...you even have scripture as your signature that pretty much sums it up that His grace is sufficient! Romans 8:1

I will never understand how people can think their works will cause God to forgive one sin, let alone a lifetime of sins. (Or half a lifetime of sin speaking of those who think Jesus died for just sins pre salvation)

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by Sagart

The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" does not appear in any post-biblical literature until the early part of the 16th century. The concept was derived through deductive logic upon the teaching of a slightly earlier concept—that God is absolutely sovereign, a doctrine that is refuted throughout much of the Bible!

So your God is not sovereign.?

 

[DJ2]

Yes...true...and ha!...you even have scripture as your signature that pretty much sums it up that His grace is sufficient! Romans 8:1

No one is debating is God's grace enough, unless you are talking about universal reconcilation. The question is can we know if we can have unquestionable personal assurance that we are part of that grace before the opening of the Book of Life.

This is the question, not is God's grace sufficient.

 

[phil36]

No one is debating is God's grace enough, unless you are talking about universal reconcilation. The question is can we know if we can have unquestionable personal assurance that we are part of that grace before the opening of the Book of Life.

This is the question, not is God's grace sufficient.

Hi DJ2

The answer is 'YES'

 

[Grandpa]

You would back pedal faster then a NFL cornerback on this formula when confronted with a "anointed" Jehovah Witness who professed believing these scriptures.

There is no real formula. As there is also a difference between believing the scripture and doing what the scripture says.

But doing those things listed would be a good start.

I'm curious though, why would a Christian need to backpedal from what they believe and the reason why they believe it? Do you really think some person who is part of some religion could convince me that I'm not saved?

Seems silly to me.

 

[DJ2]

There is no real formula. As there is also a difference between believing the scripture and doing what the scripture says.

But doing those things listed would be a good start.

I'm curious though, why would a Christian need to backpedal from what they believe and the reason why they believe it? Do you really think some person who is part of some religion could convince me that I'm not saved?

Seems silly to me.

There is no real formula.

According to your post 706 there is.

As there is also a difference between believing the scripture and doing what the scripture says.

I thought we were saved by believing not doing.

I'm curious though, why would a Christian need to backpedal from what they believe and the reason why they believe it? Do you really think some person who is part of some religion could convince me that I'm not saved?

If you are referring to post 707, you are grossly missing the point of my reply.

 

[DJ2]

Hi DJ2

The answer is 'YES'

Only God knows which individual names are written in the Book of Life.

Your name may very well be in the Book of Life but the verses being presented do not prove that we can know which individual names are listed.

Hence the answer cannot be "Yes", unless you personally are sovereign.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Only God knows which individual names are written in the Book of Life.

Your name may very well be in the Book of Life but the verses being presented do not prove that we can know which individual names are listed.

Hence the answer cannot be "Yes", unless you personally are sovereign.

Oh boy

Then John lied, and we can not KNOW we have eternal life. And by this continue to trust him. And we have no hope of eternal life. Thus could never have faith. Because apart from hope. There is no faith.

Again what are you trying to argue here. It makes no sense at all..

 

[phil36]

Only God knows which individual names are written in the Book of Life.

Your name may very well be in the Book of Life but the verses being presented do not prove that we can know which individual names are listed.

Hence the answer cannot be "Yes", unless you personally are sovereign.

Hi DJ2.

Plenty of Scripture proofs and explanations below for you to get your teeth into. Don't forget to look at the scriptures provided.


Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation

Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes, and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God, and estate of salvation; which hope of theirs shall perish: yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.

Job viii. 13, 14; Mic. iii. 11; Deut. xxix. 19; John viii. 41; Matt. vii. 22, 23; 1 John ii. 3; 1 John iii. 14, 18, 19, 21, 24; 1 John v. 13; Rom. v. 2, 5.

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God: which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.

Heb. vi. 11, 19; Heb. vi. 17, 18; 2 Pet. i. 4, 5, 10, 11; 1 John ii. 3; 1 John iii. 14; 2 Cor. i. 12; Rom. viii. 15, 16; Eph. i. 13, 14; Eph. iv. 30; 2 Cor. i. 21, 22.

III. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure; that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.

1 John v. 13; Isa. l. 10; Mark ix. 24; Ps. lxxxviii throughout, Ps. lxxvii to ver. 12; 1 Cor. ii. 12, 1 John iv. 13; Heb. vi. 11, 12; Eph. iii. 17, 18, 19; 2 Pet. i. 10; Rom. v. 1, 2, 5; Rom. xiv. 17; Rom. xv. 13; Eph. i. 3, 4; Ps. iv. 6, 7; Ps. cxix. 32; 1 John ii. 1, 2; Rom. vi. 1, 2; Tit. ii. 11, 12, 14; 2 Cor. vii. 1; Rom. viii. 1, 12; 1 John iii. 2, 3; Ps. cxxx. 4; 1 John i. 6, 7.

IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair.

Cant. v. 2, 3, 6; Ps. li. 8, 12, 14; Eph. iv. 30, 31; Ps. lxxvii. 1 to 10; Matt. xxvi. 69, 70, 71, 72; Ps. xxxi. 22; Ps. lxxxviii throughout; Isa. l. 10; 1 John iii. 9; Luke xxii. 32; Job xiii. l5; Ps. lxxiii. l5; Ps. li. 8, 12; Isa. l. 10; Mic. vii. 7, 8. 9; Jer. xxxii. 40, Isa. liv. 7, 8, 9, 10; Ps. xxii. 1; Ps. Ixxxviii throughout.



WCF Ch 18.

 

[notuptome]

If you have believed a false gospel then you will never have peace about salvation. True and genuine conversion produces a changed man that cannot be persuaded that he can ever be lost again. Truly profound is the knowledge and assurance of the grace of God.

The Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are saved. This is the peace of God that passes all understanding and the world cannot know it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

Only God knows which individual names are written in the Book of Life.

Your name may very well be in the Book of Life but the verses being presented do not prove that we can know which individual names are listed.

Hence the answer cannot be "Yes", unless you personally are sovereign.

He provides all the evince anyone needs.

I don't think any one is looking to give anymore evidence to the work of Christ that works in the believer to both will and do His good pleasure a better witness then his witness to ones own spirit.

It does not get any greater than His Spirit witnesses to ours .He gives us the His faith that comes by hearing Him through His word so we can be patient . "The first work of His labor of love in us. In that way we love Him because he first loved us .The first work of His Spirit working in us our first love is that in which we return to when we have repented as he gives us ears to hear what His Spirit is saying. . Which could be called the hidden manna ( Manna meaning ...What is it it?) I would think to help us distinguish the things of God from those of men.

I would suggest "yes" we all have a living supernatural hope that goes beyond human hope by God who gives us a living abiding, confidence. All die not receiving the promise but die with a living hope having received the confidence all will receive their new bodies. For who would hope for something they already have?

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Some in Hebrews 6 tasted of the good things to come, a new body in the new heavens and earth they crucified Christ over and over to public shame as if one demonstration did not reveal the true gospel from faith (the unseen ) to the same faith of Christ (the unseen ).They as the false bride of Christ, the false church were hoping the the new was coming but nothing needed to be changed as if it did come by observation and not understanding by faith .

 

[Grandpa]

According to your post 706 there is.

Nope. You misunderstand.

There is no real formula. If you could do all that is required to follow a formula for salvation then you wouldn't need a Saviour.

I thought we were saved by believing not doing.

Yes, we are. But believing without doing doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Belief will cause you to act. But acting is not the cause of Salvation.

If you are referring to post 707, you are grossly missing the point of my reply.

I don't know if you noticed but I asked you to explain... I suppose the way I phrased the question made you feel silly...

 

[DJ2]

Nope. You misunderstand.

There is no real formula. If you could do all that is required to follow a formula for salvation then you wouldn't need a Saviour.




Yes, we are. But believing without doing doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Belief will cause you to act. But acting is not the cause of Salvation.



I don't know if you noticed but I asked you to explain... I suppose the way I phrased the question made you feel silly...

There is no real formula. If you could do all that is required to follow a formula for salvation then you wouldn't need a Saviour

I asked you how is this done, post 706 was your reply. It was your formula, you wrote now own it. Are you back pedaling already? Formula is defined as a conventionalized statement intended to express some fundamental truth or principle as the basis of an action.

Yes, we are. But believing without doing doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Belief will cause you to act. But acting is not the cause of Salvation

If salvation is based on belief only then acting on that belief would be a work. Which we all know is not needed for salvation. Is this not how the faith alone regeneration theology is supposed to work?

I don't know if you noticed but I asked you to explain... I suppose the way I phrased the question made you feel silly...

Not silly, just seemed like a rhetorical question. But the answer is "yes" to part (a) of your formula. On part (b) the answer is "yes" also.

BTW, you did not ask to explain, just a yes or no. You need to reread post #706.

 

[DJ2]

Phil36,

Plenty of Scripture proofs and explanations below for you to get your teeth into. Don't forget to look at the scriptures provided.

I found no verses in your list that speak of the difference between knowing false assurance and unquestionable individual personal assurance.

yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace

You make the above claim but offer no defense. How do we know we love Him in sincerity, how do we know we walk in all good conscience? Can you not see that you are not answering these questions?

the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God: which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption

You are but restating true but general statements of the assurance that all Christians have but offer no explanation on how we can know that we are truly in this assurance.

being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto.

This seems to be your best effort at a defense. A defense based on "you will just know". Good luck with that. (Jeremiah 17:9)

 

[Sagart]

Eternal security has nothing to do with Gods sovereignty, If your here to appose fatalism, then feel free. But eternal security is based on Gods essence and Gods love and Gods work. Not his sovereignty.

The concept that true Christians could not lose their salvation was derived through deductive logic in the early part of the 16th century upon the teaching of a slightly earlier concept—that God is absolutely sovereign, a doctrine that is refuted throughout much of the Bible!

Premise = God is absolutely sovereign
Deduction = There is nothing that a person can do to undo what God has done
Application = There is nothing that a Christian can do to undo his salvation


God is not only a God of love; He is also a God of holiness, righteousness, and vengeance. Jesus taught that Christians must remain in Him and produce fruit in order to escape the fires of hell.

John 15:1. “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2. “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3. “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4. “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5. “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6. “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7. “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” (NASB, 1995)

The basic teaching in this passage is that if a Christian does not abide in Christ, he or she will be cast into hell as a consequence. We know for a fact that the persons being spoken of are Christians because the Greek verb translated in this passage as ‘abide’ means to ‘continue’ or ‘remain.’ In the context of John 15:1-7, it means to continue or remain in Christ. Obviously, a non-Christian cannot continue or remain in Christ.

The same Greek verb is also used in John 15:4, in John 15:9, and in John 15:16 where it is translated “remain.” It is also used in John chapter 1 four times, John chapter 2 once, John chapter 3 once, John chapter 4 once, John chapter 5 once, John chapter 6 twice, John chapter 7 once, John chapter 8 twice, John chapter 9 once, John chapter 10 once, and in John chapters 11, 12, 14, 19, and 21. It is also used numerous times in the First Epistle of John, all three of the synoptic gospels, the Book of Acts, six of Paul’s epistles, The Epistle to the Hebrews, the First Epistle of Peter, the Second Epistle of John, and Revelation. Therefore, its meaning as used in the New Testament is very well established.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The concept that true Christians could not lose their salvation was derived through deductive logic in the early part of the 16th century upon the teaching of a slightly earlier concept—that God is absolutely sovereign, a doctrine that is refuted throughout much of the Bible!

Premise = God is absolutely sovereign
Deduction = There is nothing that a person can do to undo what God has done
Application = There is nothing that a Christian can do to undo his salvation


God is not only a God of love; He is also a God of holiness, righteousness, and vengeance. Jesus taught that Christians must remain in Him and produce fruit in order to escape the fires of hell.

John 15:1. “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2. “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3. “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4. “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5. “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6. “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7. “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” (NASB, 1995)

The basic teaching in this passage is that if a Christian does not abide in Christ, he or she will be cast into hell as a consequence. We know for a fact that the persons being spoken of are Christians because the Greek verb translated in this passage as ‘abide’ means to ‘continue’ or ‘remain.’ In the context of John 15:1-7, it means to continue or remain in Christ. Obviously, a non-Christian cannot continue or remain in Christ.

The same Greek verb is also used in John 15:4, in John 15:9, and in John 15:16 where it is translated “remain.” It is also used in John chapter 1 four times, John chapter 2 once, John chapter 3 once, John chapter 4 once, John chapter 5 once, John chapter 6 twice, John chapter 7 once, John chapter 8 twice, John chapter 9 once, John chapter 10 once, and in John chapters 11, 12, 14, 19, and 21. It is also used numerous times in the First Epistle of John, all three of the synoptic gospels, the Book of Acts, six of Paul’s epistles, The Epistle to the Hebrews, the First Epistle of Peter, the Second Epistle of John, and Revelation. Therefore, its meaning as used in the New Testament is very well established.

The concept of eternal security was founded in the 1st century, It is found in a book you may know. It is called the BIBLE. It is called “eternal” Life. Seal of the spirit (until the days of redemption) it is called passing from life to death, and as Jesus said, whoever has faith will never hunger never thirst. Never die, live forever. And given his PROMISE he will raise them on the last day.

Its called the eternal inheritance which is promised, It is It is called recieve in EVERY spiritual blessing in heavenly places, And being called (BECAUSE WE HAVE FAITH) being adopted as sons, Given not a spirit of fear. But a spirit of sound mind, and love whereby we can call out ABBA Father, It is called God having ahold of us, and the fact no one (including ourself) can snatch us from his hands, and if that did not give you hope. The fathers is greater, and we can be snatch from his hands. So we have the son and tha father holding us, and the HS sealing us. Who can bring a charge against God?

It is the fact that before time began, God predetermined to save a group of people based on the fact the his son would come to earth and die in their place (known as redemption, And justification via redemption) and according to this, his will. That all who believe will have eternal life and be blameless.

What happened in the 16th century I am not sure, I can only fathom that they were fighting the catholic/pagan view of Christianity and made the mistake of taking things to far. But to day the hope found in eternal life (eternal security) was founded in the 16th century is not true

 

[preacher4truth]

The concept that true Christians could not lose their salvation was derived through deductive logic in the early part of the 16th century upon the teaching of a slightly earlier concept—that God is absolutely sovereign, a doctrine that is refuted throughout much of the Bible!

Premise = God is absolutely sovereign

Yep.

Deduction = There is nothing that a person can do to undo what God has done

Yep.

Application = There is nothing that a Christian can do to undo his salvation

Yep.

God is not only a God of love; He is also a God of holiness, righteousness, and vengeance. Jesus taught that Christians must remain in Him and produce fruit in order to escape the fires of hell.

John 15:1. “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2. “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3. “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4. “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5. “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6. “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7. “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” (NASB, 1995)

The basic teaching in this passage is that if a Christian does not abide in Christ, he or she will be cast into hell as a consequence. We know for a fact that the persons being spoken of are Christians because the Greek verb translated in this passage as ‘abide’ means to ‘continue’ or ‘remain.’ In the context of John 15:1-7, it means to continue or remain in Christ. Obviously, a non-Christian cannot continue or remain in Christ.

The same Greek verb is also used in John 15:4, in John 15:9, and in John 15:16 where it is translated “remain.” It is also used in John chapter 1 four times, John chapter 2 once, John chapter 3 once, John chapter 4 once, John chapter 5 once, John chapter 6 twice, John chapter 7 once, John chapter 8 twice, John chapter 9 once, John chapter 10 once, and in John chapters 11, 12, 14, 19, and 21. It is also used numerous times in the First Epistle of John, all three of the synoptic gospels, the Book of Acts, six of Paul’s epistles, The Epistle to the Hebrews, the First Epistle of Peter, the Second Epistle of John, and Revelation. Therefore, its meaning as used in the New Testament is very well established.

Utter nonsense. Only a truly converted person remains in Christ. Note John 8:31ff.

Workers spend significant amounts of time attempting to make goats into sheep, sifting wheat from wheat, instead separating goats from sheep and chaff from wheat.

Bottom line? Here is their "deduction": God isn't really Sovereign, man is, Christ didn't do enough, man must help him. Talk about a deduction of asinine proportions.

 

[preacher4truth]

Saying God is not absolutely Sovereign is saying God isn't really God, man is.

The church is so inept and ignorant of God it's ALMOST unbelievable. So many have their truncated and domesticated versions of God and Christ so deeply seated in their minds that even Scripture won't be allowed to correct them."They will not endure sound doctrine..." Yep. 2 Timothy 4:3.