Was Jesus the first man?

[throughfaith]

And we are born again into that family

Eph 2
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6And hath raised us up together ,and made us sit together in heavenly places in christ Jesus :

 

[JaumeJ]

It seems some here are attempting to change the glorified Body of our Savior back into flehs. Our glorified bodies will be just as He is. We are promised to be just as He is, not He but just as He.

Please do not attempt to revert the citizens of the Kingdom back into flesh, this would be worshiping the creature and not the Creator.

 

[Benadam]

It is difficult for us to understand that Jesus is God in the flesh. So basically Jesus is God. He was there at the creation, because He is God.

The Bible teach us God knew us before we were created, is that in the flesh or spiritually? In my opinion it can only be spiritually. We will never be able to understand this fully because we are bound by the flesh and the fleshly way of thinking.

Yeah. So no matter how deeply we know God there is still mystery.

 

[Benadam]

Jesus is the Word and the Word is Jesus.

Amen! Jesus is a divine person being human.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Amen! Jesus is a divine person being human.

The Bible teach us that Adam is the first Adam and Jesus the second Adam. In this case Adam is a title and not a name. Jesus was the first born of the risen ones and He is our King. He had to do what we cannot do. He defeated death for us so that we can be born again into His family.

 

[p_rehbein]

God the Father: God OF man. God the Father desired a personal relationship with His children, and establish His salvation plan for all men, for He desires that all men be saved; but this was not possible for any human who beheld the presence of God the Father would perish.

God the Son: God AS man. In order to achieve His Master Plan, He took upon Himself the form of man, making Himself a little less than the angles, came down to earth where He preached His Gospel, and gave birth to the New Covenant, Grace. Through His shedding of blood on the cross, death, burial and resurrection, He defeated death and the grave and made it possible by Grace and through the washing of the blood for all who would seek Him to become worthy to be called His children and heirs to the Promise.

God the Holy Spirit: God WITHIN man. His desire to have a personal relationship with His children is realized through the receiving of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the very essence of God!

Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity IS, WAS, ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE FULLY GOD. He was not created as was Adam and all other earthly men. He did not have life breathed into Him........HE WAS THE LIFE BREATHED INTO ALL MEN FOR BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED.

To try and "lessen" who Jesus is (by denying His divinity) is to deny Him. To deny Jesus is to deny God. Jesus said it Himself....... "I and my Father ARE ONE."

To say that one Scripture speaks of Jesus and another of Christ is wrong. Christ IS NOT the name of Jesus. Christ is a Title! He IS JESUS THE CHRIST! You can NOT separate Him!

 

[Tararose]

My understanding was that by definition Jesus is FHaFD. A is A. If Jesus ceased to be FH or FD 'he' would cease to be Jesus. For 'the word', see Logos. For the creator of all, see God. For the fully divine, fully human being whom died on the cross to save humanity, see Jesus.

Remove the divinity of Jesus and you have a Nazarite preacher. Remove Jesus' humanity and you have God. Otherwise, why refer to Jesus at all, if one isn't referring to the human being and is simply referring to God?

You appear to be conflating God/Christ/Jesus/Logos. Different words have different meanings.

As Trinitarians say 'The Holy Spirit is not the Son is not the Father'. It should go without saying that I completely believe in the Trinity.

As for Jesus existing before his physical conception, not only does that not make sense, but there is no scriptural basis for it. Did God exist? Yes. Did Jesus? Jesus is by definition human, and Genesis makes it clear that the first man was Adam.

If Jesus was the first born of God, by how long did God predate Jesus?

This may not be necessarily directed at you but for a forum that doesn't tolerate anything contradicting trinitarianism compartmentalisation seems to be a problem.

Is this making sense to you?

Jesus Was called Jesus because it literally means “GOD IS SALVATION”
It doesn’t mean “fully human“.
it never did.

He can still be Jesus without being fully human now. His “name” is still true.

Names were more than just labels in scripture. They were often declarations.

It is hard to not to want to go the extra mile, but you seem to enjoy circular reasoning and pointless debates. I hope that as you grow in God you will be more inclined to listen respectfully and be less dogmatic and argumentative towards those who may have walked with the Lord for a long time and learnt much along the way.

Until then please think hard about why you are posting and responding in the way you are. It doesn’t achieve anything and you don’t seem keen to learn, just to argue.

God loves you regardless. Many of us were much tougher round the edges when we started out in the journey with Christ. We were often really wrong and really stubborn about it too. Cling to Christ - He can prune and shape us all into His likeness, and we can bear the fruits of the spirit more and more if we submit to Him and ask Him to help us. We all need that constantly, no matter how far along the path we think we are.

Please.... Read the bible A LOT. There is no way you can fully comprehend it after reading it once or even a few times, believers are still learning after 50, 60 years. I urge you to be open to listen and to correction so that you really can grow in the fruit of the Spirit and right doctrine. Knowledge puffs up but love edifies.

I don’t think I can be of any further use to you so forgive me if I ignore your questions and comments from here on for a while. The bible warns us not to enter into foolish debates and not to cast pearls to those who obly want to tread on them.
I sincerely hope you can learn from the others here and look forward to coming back to your posts in the future If so.
Until then God bless and help you.

 

[VickyK]

And the name Jesus only came because of his incarnation. Before that he wasn't called Jesus nor was He human. He was 100 percent God and Zero percent human until he took on a human body.

He wasn't called Jesus? The question I asked was regarding Jesus (FHaFD), not anyone/anything else.

 

[VickyK]

God the Father: God OF man. God the Father desired a personal relationship with His children, and establish His salvation plan for all men, for He desires that all men be saved; but this was not possible for any human who beheld the presence of God the Father would perish.

God the Son: God AS man. In order to achieve His Master Plan, He took upon Himself the form of man, making Himself a little less than the angles, came down to earth where He preached His Gospel, and gave birth to the New Covenant, Grace. Through His shedding of blood on the cross, death, burial and resurrection, He defeated death and the grave and made it possible by Grace and through the washing of the blood for all who would seek Him to become worthy to be called His children and heirs to the Promise.

God the Holy Spirit: God WITHIN man. His desire to have a personal relationship with His children is realized through the receiving of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the very essence of God!

Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity IS, WAS, ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE FULLY GOD. He was not created as was Adam and all other earthly men. He did not have life breathed into Him........HE WAS THE LIFE BREATHED INTO ALL MEN FOR BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED.

To try and "lessen" who Jesus is (by denying His divinity) is to deny Him. To deny Jesus is to deny God. Jesus said it Himself....... "I and my Father ARE ONE."

To say that one Scripture speaks of Jesus and another of Christ is wrong. Christ IS NOT the name of Jesus. Christ is a Title! He IS JESUS THE CHRIST! You can NOT separate Him!

If Jesus is God AS man, was he the first man?

 

[VickyK]

Jesus Was called Jesus because it literally means “GOD IS SALVATION”
It doesn’t mean “fully human“.
it never did.

He can still be Jesus without being fully human now. His “name” is still true.

Names were more than just labels in scripture. They were often declarations.

It is hard to not to want to go the extra mile, but you seem to enjoy circular reasoning and pointless debates. I hope that as you grow in God you will be more inclined to listen respectfully and be less dogmatic and argumentative towards those who may have walked with the Lord for a long time and learnt much along the way.

Until then please think hard about why you are posting and responding in the way you are. It doesn’t achieve anything and you don’t seem keen to learn, just to argue.

God loves you regardless. Many of us were much tougher round the edges when we started out in the journey with Christ. We were often really wrong and really stubborn about it too. Cling to Christ - He can prune and shape us all into His likeness, and we can bear the fruits of the spirit more and more if we submit to Him and ask Him to help us. We all need that constantly, no matter how far along the path we think we are.

Please.... Read the bible A LOT. There is no way you can fully comprehend it after reading it once or even a few times, believers are still learning after 50, 60 years. I urge you to be open to listen and to correction so that you really can grow in the fruit of the Spirit and right doctrine. Knowledge puffs up but love edifies.

I don’t think I can be of any further use to you so forgive me if I ignore your questions and comments from here on for a while. The bible warns us not to enter into foolish debates and not to cast pearls to those who obly want to tread on them.
I sincerely hope you can learn from the others here and look forward to coming back to your posts in the future If so.
Until then God bless and help you.

I never claimed 'Jesus' means 'fully human'. I'm claiming that by definition Jesus (of Nazareth) is understood to be fully human and fully divine, as opposed to an ordinary human who is solely human, and God whom is fully divine.

 

[VickyK]

There was nothing presumptious about it, the chapter John 1 goes on to make it very clear the WORD of God is Christ. If you cannot accept that then I dont know that you can believe anything in scripture.


And zthe Word abecame flesh and bdwelt among us, cand we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son4 from the Father, full of dgrace and etruth. 15 (fJohn bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, g‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’ ”)

shortly followed by this incase you are still in doubt this WORD is christ that John testifies of.....

29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, xthe Lamb of God, who ytakes away the sin zof the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, a‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’

It clearly states the Word became flesh. Jesus may be the Word, but the Word is not Jesus. Do you understand? If I put bacon in between two pieces of bread, I have a bacon sandwich. Should I have referred to the bacon itself as a sandwich?

 

[VickyK]

Vicky,

If I may ask, why do you assume that "Jesus" can only refer to (what I will dub) the "incarnate Jesus" and not the "pre-incarnate Jesus"? Might I suggest that "Jesus" can (and is) used interchangeably throughout Scripture to refer to both, the incarnate and the pre-incarnate Jesus? Examples include but not limited to:

1. ) John 8:58, Jesus expresses an existence of a different order than that of Abraham by contrasting between Abraham, who “came into being” (genesthai), and He, who simply is (ego eimi).
   
   By itself, ego eimi does not imply eternal pre-existence; however, when placed alongside genesthai and referring to a time anterior to that indicated by genesthai (“came into being”), ego eimi or its related forms (because it denotes simple existence and is a durative form of the verb “to be”) stands in sharp contrast to the aorist genesthai which speaks of “coming into being.” It is this sharp contrast between being and becoming which makes it clear that in a text like John 8:58 that ego eimi implies eternality, not merely temporal priority. Jesus’ words closely echoes Psalm 90:2, which speaks of the eternal being of God in contrast to those things that “came into being” — “Before the mountains came into being (genethenai) and the earth and world were formed, even from age to age, You are (su ei, second-person equivalent of ego eimi),” Psalm 90:2 (see LXX).
   
   
2. ) Philippians 2:5-11, the picture of Jesus’ humility begins with His existence “in the form of God,” which is prior chronologically to His entrance into the world at Bethlehem when he took “the form of a servant, being born (or ‘made’) in the likeness of men” (v. 7). Imprisoned between these two parallel statements is the means in which the activity from “form of God” to the “form of a servant… in the likeness of men” takes place. Notice that prior to “being born in the likeness of men” there was a voluntary act of self-emptying on behalf of “Jesus.”
   
   
3. ) 1 Corinthians 8:6, Paul makes a powerful contrast by placing pagan pluralism of Roman Corinth (“many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’”) in juxtaposition to monotheism of the Christian Church in Corinth. “Yet for us,” Paul says, “there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist… .” But in an amazing twist, Paul then proceeds to include Jesus in this dynamic – “…and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” In drawing upon the monotheistic concept that God alone created the universe (Isaiah 44:24, 4 Ezra 3:4), Paul attributes to Christ a role in creation which Jews would commonly attribute to God (Heb 2:10, Rom 11:36).
   
   
   
   Paul unites this “one God, the Father” together with the “one Lord, Jesus Christ” — a binitarian coupling of the two. To Paul, this “one God, the Father,” and “one Lord, Jesus Christ” are constituents, acting as the “one” Sovereign in the act of creation. Jesus’ work in creation is coextensive with the Father’s. It is the one Creator — the “one God, the Father, from whom”, and the “one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom” — are all things. And it is in this sense that Paul opposes pagan pluralism/idolatry (“many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’”), and reaffirms the monotheism of the Shema by giving the Christian self-understanding of how the monotheism of the Jewish Scriptures is to be interpreted in light of the incarnation of this “one Lord.” Just as the OT sets the one God of Israel in juxtaposition to the false gods who “did not make the heavens and the earth” (Jeremiah 10:11; Psalm 96:5), so follows Paul’s line of thought.

I am hesitant to think that you may have mistaken Trinitarianism with a form of Unitarianism (which are polar opposites) known as Modalism (or ancient "Sabellianism") which is causing (as I see it) varying communication barriers in your discussions with others.

The 'pre-incarnate Jesus' should be referred to as God, Logos etc. Jesus is FHaFD. Referring to something that is not human as Jesus would be inaccurate.

Could you talk to me about Trinitarianism vs Unitarianism? Thank you.

 

[brightfame52]

that's Eliphaz speaking in Job 15, referring to Adam.
the LORD said of Eliphaz, that he did not speak the truth about Him ((Job 42:7)).

It might be elihaz but dont believe its about Adam. Notice he adds before the hills Job 15:7

7 Art thou the first man that was born? or wast thou made before the hills?

The preincarnate Mediator Man, the Wisdom of God was before the hills Prov 8:25

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

 

[PennEd]

Genesis was composed before the birth of Jesus. That's like me saying George Floyd is referenced in the Fellowship of the Ring.

Most of your questions are answered if we can grasp that Jesus upon His resurrection and ascension is outside our time domain.

Time has a start, “in the beginning”.

He created time, and may enter it at any point as God the Son.

Colossians 1:16-20
King James Version
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

 

[KingdomBrat]

The Bible does not paint a complete picture of how our Triune God works. Most of what is being posted here comes from [our (human) interpretation] of Scripture. We believe it's close enough because we have [reasoned] it to be. Truth is, it's a "Mystery." It's a Mystery to even guess what Heaven is like, let alone the God who spoke it into existence is like. We have taken written conversations, declarations, emphasis on what Jesus said and have created a knowledge base. And from the [words] of Christ Jesus, we have compiled our understanding of the Father-Son-Holy Spirit. It does not mean we have it completely right. But we have Christ's "words," so we have a foundation to build upon. And we have the views of the Apostles. Their writings reveal how they understood it.

From my own viewpoint here, I don't follow mainstreams view of our Triune God. Much of our creeds and traditions come from both godly and ungodly men. The [truth] can be found by reading the Word of God (and allowing the Holy Spirit to open your understanding) and from then doing research to get a conglomeration of views. See where you align with others.

 

[VickyK]

Most of your questions are answered if we can grasp that Jesus upon His resurrection and ascension is outside our time domain.

Time has a start, “in the beginning”.

He created time, and may enter it at any point as God the Son.

Colossians 1:16-20
King James Version
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

God created time. God became known as Jesus when incarnated as fully human and fully divine. If you're not referring to a human, say God. Why is this so difficult for you all?

 

[JohnDB]

Jesus is the second Adam.
(Hebrews)

 

[VickyK]

Jesus is the second Adam.
(Hebrews)

So NO.

 

[PennEd]

God created time. God became known as Jesus when incarnated as fully human and fully divine. If you're not referring to a human, say God. Why is this so difficult for you all?

I got no problem referring to the Creator of all, Jesus Christ, as God. I’m cool with that.

 

[VickyK]

I got no problem referring to the Creator of all, Jesus Christ, as God. I’m cool with that.

God created everything. Jesus was the human God incarnated as on Earth.