Was Jesus the first man?
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Vicky,
If I may ask, why do you assume that "Jesus" can only refer to (what I will dub) the "incarnate Jesus" and not the "pre-incarnate Jesus"? Might I suggest that "Jesus" can (and is) used interchangeably throughout Scripture to refer to both, the incarnate and the pre-incarnate Jesus? Examples include but not limited to:
If I may ask, why do you assume that "Jesus" can only refer to (what I will dub) the "incarnate Jesus" and not the "pre-incarnate Jesus"? Might I suggest that "Jesus" can (and is) used interchangeably throughout Scripture to refer to both, the incarnate and the pre-incarnate Jesus? Examples include but not limited to:
- ) John 8:58, Jesus expresses an existence of a different order than that of Abraham by contrasting between Abraham, who “came into being” (genesthai), and He, who simply is (ego eimi).
By itself, ego eimi does not imply eternal pre-existence; however, when placed alongside genesthai and referring to a time anterior to that indicated by genesthai (“came into being”), ego eimi or its related forms (because it denotes simple existence and is a durative form of the verb “to be”) stands in sharp contrast to the aorist genesthai which speaks of “coming into being.” It is this sharp contrast between being and becoming which makes it clear that in a text like John 8:58 that ego eimi implies eternality, not merely temporal priority. Jesus’ words closely echoes Psalm 90:2, which speaks of the eternal being of God in contrast to those things that “came into being” — “Before the mountains came into being (genethenai) and the earth and world were formed, even from age to age, You are (su ei, second-person equivalent of ego eimi),” Psalm 90:2 (see LXX).
- ) Philippians 2:5-11, the picture of Jesus’ humility begins with His existence “in the form of God,” which is prior chronologically to His entrance into the world at Bethlehem when he took “the form of a servant, being born (or ‘made’) in the likeness of men” (v. 7). Imprisoned between these two parallel statements is the means in which the activity from “form of God” to the “form of a servant… in the likeness of men” takes place. Notice that prior to “being born in the likeness of men” there was a voluntary act of self-emptying on behalf of “Jesus.”
- ) 1 Corinthians 8:6, Paul makes a powerful contrast by placing pagan pluralism of Roman Corinth (“many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’”) in juxtaposition to monotheism of the Christian Church in Corinth. “Yet for us,” Paul says, “there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist… .” But in an amazing twist, Paul then proceeds to include Jesus in this dynamic – “…and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” In drawing upon the monotheistic concept that God alone created the universe (Isaiah 44:24, 4 Ezra 3:4), Paul attributes to Christ a role in creation which Jews would commonly attribute to God (Heb 2:10, Rom 11:36).
Paul unites this “one God, the Father” together with the “one Lord, Jesus Christ” — a binitarian coupling of the two. To Paul, this “one God, the Father,” and “one Lord, Jesus Christ” are constituents, acting as the “one” Sovereign in the act of creation. Jesus’ work in creation is coextensive with the Father’s. It is the one Creator — the “one God, the Father, from whom”, and the “one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom” — are all things. And it is in this sense that Paul opposes pagan pluralism/idolatry (“many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’”), and reaffirms the monotheism of the Shema by giving the Christian self-understanding of how the monotheism of the Jewish Scriptures is to be interpreted in light of the incarnation of this “one Lord.” Just as the OT sets the one God of Israel in juxtaposition to the false gods who “did not make the heavens and the earth” (Jeremiah 10:11; Psalm 96:5), so follows Paul’s line of thought.
You oddly suggest that the Word is not a reference to "Jesus," per se. But I would suggest that notion is incorrect. It is not only a reference to Jesus, but also a reference to His eternality.
In John 1:1a, the form of the word “was” (ἦν), is a timeless word which signifies continuous or linear existence in the time period specified, “In the beginning” (John 1:1a). That is, it simply points to existence before the present time without reference to a point of origin — continual existence — “In the beginning.” One can push back the “beginning” as far as you can imagine, and according to John, the Word still “was.” John 1:1a speaks of continuous existence during a specified time period (“In the beginning”); therefore, it does not follow that we are also talking about coming into existence during that same period.
Additionally, ἦν (v. 1) is contrasted from ἐγένετο (vv. 3, 6, 14) where the verb is used to communicate something coming into existence; consider the following verbal contrasts:
Second, notice John 1:3 presupposes the eternality of the Word,
Hone in on the second part of the passage, “apart from Him nothing has come into being that has come into being.” The Word is being described as the One through whom all things which have “come into being” have their place in existence. Everything that was created; everything that had a starting point in time; everything that has come into existence… all things that “came into being” did so through, or by means of the Word. These are not words that describe a created being. These are words that describe an active, and eternal agent of creation. The Logos is not here identified as one that “came into being,” but as the One through whom all things that have “come into being” owe their existence.
Additionally, notice that the text speaks of the Word existing “with” God. The term used here for “with” is the Greek word πρὸς (pros), which, when followed by a noun in the accusative case, speaks of face-to-face communion, interaction. One does not need to leave the first chapter of John to find examples in which πρὸς signifies a person near or moving towards another person (e.g., 1:29, 42, 47). Of course, this comports well with John 17:5, where Jesus speaks of His pre-existence with the Father. What’s interesting, is that this πρὸς τὸν θεὸν (John 1:1b) language or some slight variation thereof, is used throughout the Testaments — some (17) occurrences of the phrase found within the NT, according to NA28 (Jn. 1:1, 2, 13:3; 1 Jn 3:21; Rev. 12:5, 13:6; Acts 4:24, 12:5, 24:16; Romans 5:1, 10:1, 15:30; 2 Cor. 3:4, 13:7; Phillippians 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:8, 9) — and another 20+ examples in the Genesis and Exodus accounts of the Greek OT/LXX (Gen. 17:18, 18:17, 18:31, 20:17, 24:49, 24:54, 24:46; Exodus 2:23, 3:11, 3:13, 8:25, 8:26, 9:29, 10:18, 18:19, 19:8, 19:21, 19:23, 19:24, 24:1, 24:2, 32:30). In each of these occurrences (aside from the occurrences where the neuter article τὰ is present), they explicitly refer to distinct individuals in some form of communication with one another.
This imagery that John uses in his prologue of the Word parallels other NT themes which speak of Jesus as the eikon (‘image’) of God, God’s enthroned representative — the very vicar of YHWH. When you see Jesus, you see God (John 14:9). He acts as God acts (John 5:28) — in perfect union with God. As the vicar of YHWH, the Word is God’s perfect representative; the perfect reflection of His very being.
As the Word (who came in a “vision” to Samuel) made YHWH known (1 Samuel 3:7-9, 22); so too has Jesus made known (or exegeted) the Father (John 1:18). No one has seen God at any time, except through the agency of the Word (who, according to John, is Jesus); and He has been doing this throughout the entire history of the human race, since ancient times. John intends his readers to make the referential connection between Jesus and this mysterious Word of God figure of the OT.
In John 1:1a, the form of the word “was” (ἦν), is a timeless word which signifies continuous or linear existence in the time period specified, “In the beginning” (John 1:1a). That is, it simply points to existence before the present time without reference to a point of origin — continual existence — “In the beginning.” One can push back the “beginning” as far as you can imagine, and according to John, the Word still “was.” John 1:1a speaks of continuous existence during a specified time period (“In the beginning”); therefore, it does not follow that we are also talking about coming into existence during that same period.
Additionally, ἦν (v. 1) is contrasted from ἐγένετο (vv. 3, 6, 14) where the verb is used to communicate something coming into existence; consider the following verbal contrasts:
Second, notice John 1:3 presupposes the eternality of the Word,
Hone in on the second part of the passage, “apart from Him nothing has come into being that has come into being.” The Word is being described as the One through whom all things which have “come into being” have their place in existence. Everything that was created; everything that had a starting point in time; everything that has come into existence… all things that “came into being” did so through, or by means of the Word. These are not words that describe a created being. These are words that describe an active, and eternal agent of creation. The Logos is not here identified as one that “came into being,” but as the One through whom all things that have “come into being” owe their existence.
Additionally, notice that the text speaks of the Word existing “with” God. The term used here for “with” is the Greek word πρὸς (pros), which, when followed by a noun in the accusative case, speaks of face-to-face communion, interaction. One does not need to leave the first chapter of John to find examples in which πρὸς signifies a person near or moving towards another person (e.g., 1:29, 42, 47). Of course, this comports well with John 17:5, where Jesus speaks of His pre-existence with the Father. What’s interesting, is that this πρὸς τὸν θεὸν (John 1:1b) language or some slight variation thereof, is used throughout the Testaments — some (17) occurrences of the phrase found within the NT, according to NA28 (Jn. 1:1, 2, 13:3; 1 Jn 3:21; Rev. 12:5, 13:6; Acts 4:24, 12:5, 24:16; Romans 5:1, 10:1, 15:30; 2 Cor. 3:4, 13:7; Phillippians 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:8, 9) — and another 20+ examples in the Genesis and Exodus accounts of the Greek OT/LXX (Gen. 17:18, 18:17, 18:31, 20:17, 24:49, 24:54, 24:46; Exodus 2:23, 3:11, 3:13, 8:25, 8:26, 9:29, 10:18, 18:19, 19:8, 19:21, 19:23, 19:24, 24:1, 24:2, 32:30). In each of these occurrences (aside from the occurrences where the neuter article τὰ is present), they explicitly refer to distinct individuals in some form of communication with one another.
This imagery that John uses in his prologue of the Word parallels other NT themes which speak of Jesus as the eikon (‘image’) of God, God’s enthroned representative — the very vicar of YHWH. When you see Jesus, you see God (John 14:9). He acts as God acts (John 5:28) — in perfect union with God. As the vicar of YHWH, the Word is God’s perfect representative; the perfect reflection of His very being.
As the Word (who came in a “vision” to Samuel) made YHWH known (1 Samuel 3:7-9, 22); so too has Jesus made known (or exegeted) the Father (John 1:18). No one has seen God at any time, except through the agency of the Word (who, according to John, is Jesus); and He has been doing this throughout the entire history of the human race, since ancient times. John intends his readers to make the referential connection between Jesus and this mysterious Word of God figure of the OT.
The OT may not reference Jesus by name, but there are texts in Genesis (Genesis 1:26, Genesis 19:24 cf. Amos 4:11, Jeremiah 50:40) in which Second Temple writers speculated on the identity of a second YHWH, and gave later rise to Christian interpretation. However, the acceptance of this ideology changed as early Christians began connecting this extremely Jewish idea with Jesus.
One chapter of the Word tells all. In the first of Joh's Evangel, it is written, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.. Continuing it is written the Word is our Lord, Jesus-Yeshua.
When our blessed Father spoke to Moses on the mount He declared, I will be what I will be. There is no reason to think He is not our Savior for He has declared, "I am your Redeemer,, I am your Husband, and I am your King."
Lastly for now, Isaieah 9:6 says it all, the Jesus would be the Eternal Father, Counselor, Comforter, Ruler of Kings, Almighty God.
When our blessed Father spoke to Moses on the mount He declared, I will be what I will be. There is no reason to think He is not our Savior for He has declared, "I am your Redeemer,, I am your Husband, and I am your King."
Lastly for now, Isaieah 9:6 says it all, the Jesus would be the Eternal Father, Counselor, Comforter, Ruler of Kings, Almighty God.
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You are forgetting [predestination and foreknowledge]. Before and When the WORD created everything, He also knew it would fail in terms of sin. He knew Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit. He would give man the "Law" but knew the Law would not save souls. He knew eventually He would need to come as His own creation and save them. He already had Yeshua [Jesus] prepared before giving His first Command..."Let there be Light!" (Genesis 1:3)
(As of this moment, I have not read past the first page.)
Perhaps the OP of this thread may be helpful?
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...of-god-word-father-son-and-the-trinity.72792/
Perhaps the OP of this thread may be helpful?
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...of-god-word-father-son-and-the-trinity.72792/
before time, God was. time was created through Him.
but God has not always been manifest as an human.
who does the Bible say is the first human?
Adam was the first man.
the Son of God added humanity to Himself a couple thousand years ago, becoming the man Christ Jesus.
but God has not always been manifest as an human.
The first man was of the earth, of dust;
the second Man the Lord from heaven.
(1 Corinthians 15:47)
who does the Bible say is the first human?
Adam was the first man.
the Son of God added humanity to Himself a couple thousand years ago, becoming the man Christ Jesus.
It is difficult for us to understand that Jesus is God in the flesh. So basically Jesus is God. He was there at the creation, because He is God.
The Bible teach us God knew us before we were created, is that in the flesh or spiritually? In my opinion it can only be spiritually. We will never be able to understand this fully because we are bound by the flesh and the fleshly way of thinking.
The Bible teach us God knew us before we were created, is that in the flesh or spiritually? In my opinion it can only be spiritually. We will never be able to understand this fully because we are bound by the flesh and the fleshly way of thinking.
