Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

[P1LGR1M]

This is different from Acts where we see a filling of the Holy Spirit. Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Ac 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
Ac 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Your theology is the conflict not the scriptures for they are clear.

Jesus made clear that power would be supplied after He ascended. Power which they had seen when Jesus sent them out in Matthew 10
Mat 10:5 ¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.

I agree they were empowered, which is another reason why trying to make the coming of the Comforter as promised by the father, taught by Christ, and realized on the day of Pentecost, simply an event of empowering...nullifies Christ's teaching in John 14 and 16.

See it again:


Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


They would not be Baptized with the Holy Ghost for several days. So we cannot say they were Baptized with the Holy Ghost while He was yet with them, and we know the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is the coming of the Comforter, because that too was taught by Christ that it would happen after Christ had returned to the Father, not while He yet remained with them:


John 14:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]25 [/SUP]These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You are quite correct that you will not convince me of your error as the scriptures clearly reveal.
For the cause of Christ
Roger

I can't change hearts, only God can do that.

But you will need to address the points and Scripture presented. Just saying "You're wrong and I am right" means nothing.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You continue to dig the hole deeper.

Me? lol

I'm not the one that said...

Originally Posted by notuptome

f only you knew how ridiculous you sound. They had the risen Christ standing in their midst. Of course they believed. They were given the Holy Spirit so their understanding would be opened. They were then able to put all the pieces together.

...and then have to say...

They doubted but they wanted to believe.

My statements have remained constant with Scripture provided to support each point, position, or argument.

You have not addressed anything but simply provided your position accompanied with insult.

So which is it? "Of course they believed?" Or "They doubted but wanted to believe?"

You ignore the timeline.

On the contrary, I have provided the Scripture that shows the obvious timeline, and the point you are rejecting is the simple fact that the Comforter did not come until after Christ returned to Heaven.

You have the Comforter coming and the Baptism with the Holy Ghost prior to Christ's Ascension...despite the fact that the Lord Himself states it is yet "not many days hence" and then ascends on high.

Yes at the tomb they had not yet believed that Jesus was the Messiah.

Correct, they thought the Lord rising again from the dead to be idle tales and they believed not.

My friend, I showed you that the disciple did not believe the Lord's Resurrection after He rose, and we can be sure they did not believe before He died (Peter rebuking Christ for saying He would), so is it that hard just to say you were wrong?

You were.

They doubted but they wanted to believe.

They wanted to believe what? lol

Again, the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery, which is a previously unrevealed truth.

Though told directly by Christ that He would die and rise again...they did not believe. When He was taken, all men forsook Him.

They could not believe because that understanding was not yet given to men. It would be revealed by the Holy Ghost when He came, after Christ ascended, in the Ministry of Comforter, which John 14 and 16 make clear was not going on in Christ's Day. He would send Another Comforter after He returned to Heaven.

In John 20 Jesus has now presented Himself to them in His resurrected body and He gives them the Holy Spirit and they have their understanding opened.

The statement "He breathed on them" is a curious statement, but we can dogmatically say that Christ is not nullifying that which He had taught, which is precisely what would be happening if in fact the Comforter came before He returned to Heaven.

What is more likely is that this expression simply refers to Him speaking to them, and if we connect that with His teaching that the disciples were clean through the Word spoken unto them, in view a more likely scenario would be a cleansing effect in what He is speaking. And what He is speaking is simply a command to receive the Holy Ghost, just as it was commanded that they abide in Him, and go out into all the world and be witnesses unto Him.

What is your real motivation for this obtuse discourse?

That should be pretty obvious...to discuss the new birth. lol

You are attempting to guide this somewhere but not into the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Actually, we will be guided into truth, because despite what is said, a public record is being created of the opposing views, and any who follow will be guided by the Lord in discerning truth from error.

This discussion should drive people to the Word of God to see whether these things be true, right?

And any time believers immerse themselves in the Word, howbeit in an antagonistic discussion, then the Body is edified.

So while I am used to responses that seek to attack rather than address, I would encourage you to address the Scripture and points raised, and provide your own Scripture that counters my own views and shows that I am in error.

You said they were believers, and because I gave you clear Scripture you had to change your statement. That's how it works, Roger.

And I would again remind you that we have but broached the subject, there is more yet to be discussed.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

PILGRIM, Wow, your posts are very informative., Thank you!!

Thank you for the kind words, but I have to confess I cannot take any credit for it, lol. Praise God for His Word, and...teaching us.

Scripture speaks for itself, sometimes it's just a matter of allowing God to place the pieces together for us.

There was a major difference for every human being BEFORE Jesus actually died on the cross and the veil was ripped in two and AFTER that event.

This is very true. And you point out something that many do not really stop to consider, and that is the sacrifices offered in the Old Testament. We see animal death from the very beginning for the covering of sin, and is traced through Abel, Noah, Job, Abraham, and then included in the Law, which was the last economy before Christ came.

On the last forum I was on, a fellow denied that those sacrifice brought about atonement and remission of sins, despite being shown God stating they were commanded to offer up sacrifice for their sin. He would not be convinced, yet, this is simply basic to the Old Testament, so you can imagine trying to approach understanding the Sacrifice of Christ and not understanding that which was basic.

And the major difference between the two has to be established, which is, those sacrifices could not take away sins (which is why they were continually offered), but Christ's does. And this on an eternal basis.

I've always heard that everyone is saved the same way before Jesus died on the cross just the same as after. But as you posted, they WAITED for the promise... We today have it under the grace covenant since we are not under the covenant of law as they were. There is a distinction of covenants and their requirements. I'm still trying to understand the details but that fact I do know now.

We can say they were "saved the same way," that is, by grace through faith. But we don't negate the fact that promise is promise until fulfilled. And those saints received not the promise.

Many Christians do not accept that Abraham's bosom was an actual holding place where the OT saints stayed until Jesus finished His work of redemption. Or that Lazarus was an actual real person along with the rich man. How they were in a gulf-FIXED and neither could go from one place to the other. Yet they had an awareness. But it had to be since as you pointed out in Scripture and we all know that there WAS a very heavy woven metal curtain separating the people from the Holy of Holies. And only the priest could go in FOR the people. And only God could have ripped that thing in half. (and it's shocking that they went and sewed it back together again later!!! wanting to be under the law)

It is true that modern liberal theology has sought to spiritualize the Bible to the point where the very teachings which generated the fear of God in yesteryear are now explained away. There are numerous very popular false teachers which go so far to deny there will be a Hell in which the lost will be eternally separated from God in.

The teaching of the Rich Man and Lazarus can be seen to fit into the Age of Law, for Abraham does not direct the brethren of the Rich Man to Christ, but to Moses and the Prophets (and He was speaking about the Hebrew Scriptures).

I take the position that men did not go into the presence of God at death, because their sins had not yet been atoned for. A few verses to support that, if I have not already given them, would be...


Hebrews 9

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

("was a figure" is a link)


This speaks of man's entrance to God, it is earthly, and is contrasted with the "Holiest of All," the way into which was not yet present.


[SUP]23 [/SUP]It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:



Our Great High Priest did not take an offering into an earthly Tabernacle, but into Heaven itself.



Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

[SUP]20 [/SUP]By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


Man's entrance to God in truth is through the Blood (Death) of Christ. So we see in two ways where man's entrance to God is said not to take place prior to the Cross. We see that because there was an earthly Tabernacle intended for services meant to bring atonement, and we see it in that entrance to the Holiest of all is credited to Christ's death, and this is contrasted with the death of animals numerous times.

I'm not sure all of what that priest was doing in there but he was the one who went in on behalf of the people and made the sacrifices for a year. But then sacrifices were made daily so lots of blood was shed all the time. I'm still learning about the pictures of how it shows what Jesus did for us by all the details of what the priest had to do. But the Bible clearly states that that veil was rent in two EXACTLY when Jesus died. Something MAJOR happened.

And we see that the veil of the Tabernacle represented the "good things to come," that is, the Incarnation:


Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

[SUP]20 [/SUP]By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


Under the Law men entered into the only representation of God's presence available to them in these days, and this was through the veil. The veil we go through is the flesh of Christ, which refers to the Cross.

In other words, if someone wants to come into God's presence, they must go through Christ, and this means specific trust in His death in our stead for the remission of sins.

I'm very interested in this thread to learn more on the subject. Thanks for starting it. Blessings!

Hey thanks for participating. This is, in my view, one of the most rewarding studies we have.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

We need to start over big time as we are not connecting at all....you had stated in the OP that

"So we can see that eternal life has a point in time at which it becomes available to men, and that is when the Bread of Life, Jesus the Son of God...came from Heaven.
And prior to that men did not have eternal life."

Ok, that sounded like the OT believers did not even have eternal life. ..Now can you clarify?

This statement was not actually in the OP, but perhaps in the op, lol.

Okay, let's start over. I asked you "Did you have eternal life before your sins were forgiven, Crossnote?"

Your response was...

hehe, no, I was talking about believers in the ot, they had eternal life. Of course I was lost, heading for hell before I believed.

BTW, Some of the deepest truths are found in John's writings, yet they were in short paragraphs, not long tomes (tombs)

Now why would the Old Testament Saints have eternal life before their sins were forgiven on an eternal basis, but not you?

See the problem there? What we would have to say is that you too had eternal life before you were forgiven your sins, which you admit, rightly so, no...you did not have eternal life before you were forgiven.

And we cannot argue that they received eternal life through the atonement received through animal sacrifice, that is the very point the writer of Hebrews makes here...


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The blood of bulls and goats sanctified on a temporal basis, to the purifying of the flesh. But as Christ teaches in John 6, apart from belief in Christ's death, men do not have life. They walk around physically, having a body and a spirit, but that is not equated to eternal life.


Consider:


1 John 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

[SUP]2 [/SUP](For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)

John ties Eternal Life to the Incarnation, saying that life was the Word (John 1), and was with the Father (pre-existed), and was manifested unto us.

Now let's go back to the question, and change it a little, and ask...

"...why didn't you have eternal life before your sins were forgiven?"


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Usually I'm bored to tears with long posts too but this subject so interests me and your way of posting is easy to read so I've read each post with interest. Keep them coming.

I really appreciate that, because I take fire for my style of posting, which is spaced to make it easy to read and Scripture enlarged that one might distinguish what Pilgrim says and what God has said, lol.

I have had a number of people who find that style easier to follow, and when we look at posts that are all one paragraph with Scripture intermingled, it can get a little confusing.

So again I appreciate you letting me know.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I agree with Pilgrim, if I am reading him correctly. The OT believers had the promise of eternal life. It wasn't until the Glorification of Christ that eternal life became the reality.

They were saved and secure looking forward to the reality of eternal life. Jesus Christ in perfect glorification, in His humanity and deity is our eternal life and is eternal life. And that promise became reality when Jesus Christ ascended to the Father.

We have Christ(eternal life) in us. The OT saints never did. It is one of the grace gifts that every church age believer receives at the moment of salvation.

Often the picture of Eternal Life is given to new believers in such a way that Eternal Life seems to be a substance poured into the believer at salvation, and the picture can make God and Eternal Life two elements.

The truth is that we have Eternal Life because of God indwelling us. So Eternal Life is not a substance, but God Himself.

And this goes toward another misconception (in my view, and feel free to correct me if anyone thinks I am wrong) I see people having, which is the idea that sins are what send men to Hell (the Lake of Fire).

I don't see Scripture teaching that, because we know that before the opportunity for any man or woman to sin, such as in the womb, or as babes, Man is already separated from God, under condemnation, and their fate is already Hell. Now their judgment will receive the degree of severity it receives based on sin, but, that is not why men are eternally separated, they are born separated from God.

So the one that is in Christ has Eternal Life, few would argue that. The one that is not in Christ, but natural...does not have eternal life, but stands condemned:


John 3:18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


The remedy for man's malady is singular...belief in the Risen Savior.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

This is an interesting thread but can we get back to the original question?
Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost? The easy answer is NO.

What does it mean to be born again?

How do we explain it to a person as we are witnessing it to them.

Kefa

And that is the purpose of the thread, that we, as the Body, might collectively gather and share that which God has taught us.


Malachi 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.



I'm here to have my brethren test my own positions as well as challenge the views of others. When I first started my study of new birth I though "There sure aren't many passages dealing with new birth, but, there are actually quite a few.

Here are just a few of them:



John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


A few dogmatic statements we might make in regards to this text is that being born of God (which is synonymous with new birth) is not something that men can accomplish in the flesh, not by being born physically or heritage (God has no grandchildren), not by a natural proclivity inherit in us, and not by the intellect, we become sons/children of God because He so desires. That is His will, and His will is not that any man should perish, but that all should be brought to repentance.


John 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


A few dogmatic conclusions we can make here is that one cannot see the Kingdom of God except he be born again. One argument (which while I see as something we can be dogmatic about, but recognize it is a debatable issue) that men were born again prior to the Cross and Pentecost is that here they see Christ demanding that men be born again, and if He commands it, that means that it could happen in that day. But I would remind those who take that position that this is a weak argument, for Christ also commanded that the disciple go unto all the world and witness for Him, to abide in Him, and to receive the Spirit, but not one of these things can reasonably be argued as having occurred during Christ's Ministry.

Secondly, we know that the New Birth is a process where men are born of water and Spirit. Where debate may rise is what one defines the water in view to be. Baptismal Regenerations believe this is a reference to water baptism, but this could not possibly be the case seeing that regeneration is, as we see above, the operation of God, and the efforts of men are excluded. Secondly, we can see John, Christ, and Paul make the same statement which Contrasts what our Baptizer will baptize with, which is with Spirit and with Fire. Never water. Christian baptism is commanded, but as we see in Acts 19 this is for the purpose of public identification with Christ, not the salvific experience of redemption. And that is a great discussion too.

Finishing up on the second point, we consider what the water in view is (most of us would agree concerning be born of the Spirit, though there are a few radical ideas). I take the position that the water is the cleansing of the Word of God, and it is the Word of God by which men have always received divine truth and which has led them to either obey or disobey. Christ is said to cleanse the Church with the washing of the water of the Word, and in Ezekiel 36:21-27 we see that God, for His own names sake, will wash the divided Houses of Israel and Judah.

Another issue we can be dogmatic about, is that the Lord distinguishes between natural birth and being born of God (synonymous wit being "born from above"). That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Another point I think we can be dogmatic about is that the New Birth is not something that can be seen taking place. We can see the effects, like we see leaves moving in the wind, but we cannot see the One moving in regards to new birth, and that is God, that is Christ our Baptizer, that sends the Comforter to first convict the natural man, then recreate him.

And this is getting long enough, so I will stop there and open this post up to anyone who might want to discuss or debate the points raised to stir up conversation.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Ezekiel 37Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

The Valley of Dry Bones

37 The hand of the Lord was on me, and He brought me out by His Spirit and set me down in the middle of the valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me all around them. There were a great many of them on the surface of the valley, and they were very dry. 3 Then He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”
I replied, “Lord God, only You know.”
4 He said to me, “Prophesy concerning these bones and say to them: Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Lord God says to these bones: I will cause breath to enter you, and you will live. 6 I will put tendons on you, make flesh grow on you, and cover you with skin. I will put breath in you so that you come to life. Then you will know that I am Yahweh.”
7 So I prophesied as I had been commanded. While I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 As I looked, tendons appeared on them, flesh grew, and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them. 9 He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath,[a]prophesy, son of man. Say to it: This is what the Lord God says: Breath, come from the four winds and breathe into these slain so that they may live!” 10 So I prophesied as He commanded me; the breath[b] entered them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, a vast army.
11 Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel.Look how they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope has perished; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore, prophesy and say to them: This is what the Lord Godsays: I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them, My people, and lead you into the land of Israel. 13 You will know that I am Yahweh, My people, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I am Yahweh. I have spoken, and I will do it.” This is the declaration of the Lord.
The Reunification of Israel

15 The word of the Lord came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a single stick and write on it: Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him. Then take another stick and write on it: Belonging to Joseph—the stick of Ephraim—and all the house of Israel associated with him. 17 Then join them together into a single stick so that they become one in your hand. 18 When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you explain to us what you mean by these things?’— 19 tell them: This is what the Lord God says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel associated with him, and put them together with the stick of Judah. I will make them into a single stick so that they become one in My hand.
20 “When the sticks you have written on are in your hand and in full view of the people, 21 tell them: This is what the Lord God says: I am going to take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one king will rule over all of them.They will no longer be two nations and will no longer be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will not defile themselves anymore with their idols, their detestable things, and all their transgressions. I will save them from all their apostasies by which[c] they sinned, and I will cleanse them. Then they will be My people, and I will be their God. 24 My servant David will be king over them, and there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow My ordinances, and keep My statutes and obey them.
25 “They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live in it forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. I will establish and multiply them and will set My sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 When My sanctuary is among them forever, the nations will know that I, Yahweh, sanctify Israel.”

This is a debated passage, and some see this as a reference to the new birth, but, I take the position that in view here is Israel's Restoration, will see it's culmination in the Millennial Kingdom. It shows the picture of a dead nation coming back to life, whereas this will be preceded by New Birth, as Christ taught in John 3, no man will enter or see the Kingdom of God except he be born again, born of God, born from above. All these terms refer to the same event in the lives of those who come to believe.

And to see the new birth which precedes their "resurrection," we just back up:


Ezekiel 36:21-27

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



Israel's sin was not keeping the Covenant they were entered into, though we know from New Testament revelation that Covenant was only meant to be temporary. Here we see elements of new birth, and new birth precedes the physical resurrection of the believer.

The Prophecy of Ezekiel follows the timeline presented in Revelation, where we see Jews born again during the Tribulation (which is the resurrection of those that were previously dead (remember all who enter the Tribulation will be unbelievers)), the Supper of the Great God in Ezekiel 39, the establishment of the Earthly Millennial Kingdom, and Temple services restored, or, the heritage of Israel lived as it was intended.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Yes!

Ezekiel 11Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Promise of Israel’s Restoration

14 The word of the Lord came to me again: 15 “Son of man, your own relatives, those who have the right to redeem you,[c][d] and the entire house of Israel, all of them, are those that the residents of Jerusalem have said this to, ‘Stay away from the Lord; this land has been given to us as a possession.’
16 “Therefore say: This is what the Lord God says: Though I sent them far away among the nations and scattered them among the countries, yet for a little while I have been a sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone.
17 “Therefore say: This is what the Lord God says: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18 “When they arrive there, they will remove all its detestable things and practices from it. 19 And I will give them one heart and put a new spirit within them; I will remove their heart of stone from their bodies[e] and give them a heart of flesh, 20 so they may follow My statutes, keep My ordinances, and practice them. Then they will be My people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts pursue their desire for detestable things and practices, I will bring their actions down on their own heads.” This is the declaration of the Lord God.

So when did this get fulfilled, WH?

And do you recognize that Prophecy can be seen to have multiple fulfillments? And a final fulfillment?

For example, Peter quotes Joel in Acts 2 and says...


Acts 2:16-21

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And it shall come


Is Joel's Prophecy fully fulfilled, or do we see that the Day of the Lord is yet to come, taught after this sermon by Peter, Paul, and John.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

This is true, but this is a Post-Pentecost teaching.

And we look to Christ's teachings in John 14 and 16 to understand that the eternal indwelling of God was not taking place at that time, those teachings are prophetic.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Let's leave out the 'eternal life IN US' part, and ask 'when an old testament saint died, if he did not have eternal life, what kind of life did he have? What kind of life did Moses and Elijah have while communing with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration?...and that was before Jesus died.

They had the same life unbelievers had, being made up of body and spirit, and thus a soul.

But when God created Adam He breathed the Breath of Life into Him, whereas Adam's descendants are said to after Adam's likeness and image:


Genesis 5

King James Version (KJV)
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:


Thus we distinguish between the life men are born into, and the life men receive through trusting Christ, which is the Eternal Life says repeatedly HE specifically came to bestow on those that believe.

We know there were believers saved by grace through faith in the Old Testament, but, their faith was limited to the revelation they were provided. Abraham, for example, thought that when God promised all families of the earth would be blessed through his seed, that God was speaking about physical descendants, which was true, but was not the ultimate understanding of the Promise of God given him. Thus he could have faith to sacrifice Isaac, because he knew God would have to0 resurrect Isaac, because the blessing were to be through His seed.

But we understand it better:


Galatians 3:16

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


The "Seed" through which all families of the earth would be blessed...we now know to be a reference to Christ. Just as the "Seed of Woman" is a reference to Christ.

Revelation has been progressive through the Ages, and we have to maintain the revelation provided to those days, just as we can dogmatically state that Abraham did not have the Mystery of the Gospel revealed to him. And Paul makes it clear that the Gospel of Christ was hidden wisdom, secret, and not revealed but in this Age.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Lynn,
i mentioned the Transfiguration because in post #24 Pilgrim mentioned...

So we can see that eternal life has a point in time at which it becomes available to men, and that is when the Bread of Life, Jesus the Son of God...came from Heaven.
And prior to that men did not have eternal life.


So if the OT Saints did not have eternal life what kind of life did Moses and Elijah have at the Transfiguration?

We can be sure that what is not happening is that Christ, Moses, and Elijah are glorified, because we know when Christ was glorified, and that is at His Resurrection, and He being the Firstborn from the dead (meaning He is the first to be raised in glorified form).

So what is happening on the mount of transfiguration? I can only tell you how I see it.

First, a common misperception (in my view, that is) many people have is that Christ "emptied Himself," of...something. Some think it was His Deity, some think it was His glory which He had with the Father before the world was formed, but can I suggest to you that the "Kenosis" does not speak of an emptying in the sense that Christ lost some or all divine attributes?

He was fully God, and fully Man.

So what is the answer? I think Paul gives it to us here:


Philippians 2:5-8

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


I will just make one point: He veiled His glory in human flesh.

The only thing that changed for the Son of God was His rank in regards to His Incarnation, His Eternal Being taking on the veil we see spoken of here:


Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

[SUP]20 [/SUP]By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


God cannot stop being God, even when He takes on human form. It was God speaking to Abraham on the plains of Mamre (Genesis 18), but we know that no man can look upon God in His glory, thus, when God interacts with physical man, He must do so on a physical level, that men not die being in His presence.

So when we get to this...


Matthew 17:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.


...we don't see three glorified men, but One. And we cannot say He was glorified before His Resurrection, because that would conflict with a number of teachings.

What we see is exactly what Scripture states: Christ was transfigured, His face shone as the sun, His raiment was white as the light.

And what I would suggest is that here the glory of the Son of God peaks through, and the veiling of His flesh is at this time drawn back. Doesn't mean He is seen by the disciples in His full glory, but, the transfiguration seen here is a change from His appearance in the Veil (His flesh) and the glory which that flesh veiled shining through.

That the disciples are still yet of carnal understanding, they want to erect three tabernacles unto the three men, but are corrected as the Father...glorifies Christ only, and commands them "...Hear ye Him."

And I will just throw in one verse I think is relevant to Christ's glorification and our current study?


John 7:38-39

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]38 [/SUP]He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

[SUP]39 [/SUP](But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


This single passage addresses the eternal life Christ came to bestow upon those that believed on His name, as well as points out that (1) the Spirit was not given (and the Spirit being credited is equated to the "living waters") and (2) that Christ was not yet glorified, making it a little difficult to view the Transfiguration as the Lord being glorified through His Resurrection.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

And I think that will be all the time I have for the thread until I return from our trip out of town, but I would encourage those interested in this topic to continue the discussion. There has been some great conversations so far.


God bless.

 

[Gr8grace]

Hello notuptome, thought I would revisit this as I have a little more time this morning than I did yesterday afternoon.




Christ did not teach that He had to die in order to send the Comforter, but that He had to return to Heaven in order for the Comforter to be sent:

The entire teaching is one teaching that takes place from the Last Supper until the time Christ is taken. It begins with the disciples sorrowing because Christ had told them He was leaving:


John 14

King James Version (KJV)
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


The coming of the Comforter would take place after He returned:

[SUP]
16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.


Above we see the eternal indwelling of the Comforter contrasted with Christ's own temporary time with them. The Spirit has ministered to and through the disciples, and has been/is with them, but when the Comforter comes, would be in them.

That is a significant difference to the Spirit's ministry before and after the coming of the Comforter.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Here we see that the Comforter will be sent. That means that at the time of this teaching...He is not yet sent.

In John 15 we read...


John 15:26-27King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]26 [/SUP]But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.


Here we see the same thing spoken of by Christ here:



Acts 1:8

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me bothin Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


This is not an empowering, it is the reception of the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, Who will begin the unique ministry of convicting the world, unbelievers...of sin.



John 16:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

[SUP]6 [/SUP]But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


There is absolutely no confusing what the Lord teaches here: that He is returning to the Father, and when He does that...He will send the Comforter.

This is not the filling of the Spirit which is what takes place after one has been eternally indwelt of God, but the eternal indwelling that produces salvation itself.

These verses speak for themselves.


Continued...

This is how I see it. The indwelling(baptism of the Spirit) of the Spirit happened to no man until Jesus Christ ascended to His Father and was Glorified in Perfect,100% humanity and undiminished deity.

The PERSON of Jesus Christ, is humanities eternal life.

As I see in my walk at this stage................., OT saints had the Spirit upon them but He was not IN men until Pentecost.

 

[Gr8grace]

Let's leave out the 'eternal life IN US' part, and ask 'when an old testament saint died, if he did not have eternal life, what kind of life did he have? What kind of life did Moses and Elijah have while communing with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration?...and that was before Jesus died.

Everlasting life in the interim state. The great procession, took OT saints from Paradise and transferred them to heaven when Jesus Christ was glorified in His perfect humanity. Heaven was not open to humanity until humanity had its perfect HUMAN redeemer.

Humanity needed a perfect 100% human redeemer.

Jesus Christ is perfect humanity and undiminished deity, but humanity needed a human redeemer. God isn't satisfied with animals. A man needed to die for men. ANd until His humanity was glorified in resurrection BODY, heaven was not open to man.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."

 

[mpaper345]

Nobody could be born again to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven until Jesus shed His blood to take away sins,and the Spirit was poured out for people to be able to receive it and convert them.

In the Old Testament if they repented of their sins,and their sins were covered by the blood of bulls and goats,then they would have all their sins removed when Jesus shed His blood,and be able to enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[valiant]

This is how I see it. The indwelling(baptism of the Spirit) of the Spirit happened to no man until Jesus Christ ascended to His Father and was Glorified in Perfect,100% humanity and undiminished deity.

The PERSON of Jesus Christ, is humanities eternal life.

As I see in my walk at this stage................., OT saints had the Spirit upon them but He was not IN men until Pentecost.

Buy if the Holy Spirit was not in them how could they be 'circumcised in heart'? How could they 'make themselves a new heart and a new spirit'? (Ezek 18.31). How could a right Spirit be renewed within them? (Psalm 51.10).

The natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him. How then could OT saints know the truth about God.

When John said, 'the Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified' he was referring to the outpouring of the Spirit promised by the prophets. He was not referring to the individual experience of believers. Indeed Jesus thought that Nicodemus should have known what it mean to be born from above.

 

[prove-all]

The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:
for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Matthew 12:41, Luke 11:32

The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation,
and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth
to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh:
but the earth abideth for ever.


And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

 

[prove-all]

. Indeed Jesus thought that Nicodemus should have known what it mean to be born from above.

Jesus told Nicodemus that a flesh and blood mortal, visible person ,
could not enter into the kingdom, Jesus knew he did not know anything about it

 

[prove-all]

the spirit was given and administered by God back then,
given as deemed fit for his purpose.


now Jesus is the administer of doling out Gods power, now a down payment ,
as an heir to his comming kingdom.