Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

[Kefa54]

What about the Gentiles?

 

[ladylynn]

Thank you for the kind words, but I have to confess I cannot take any credit for it, lol. Praise God for His Word, and...teaching us.

Scripture speaks for itself, sometimes it's just a matter of allowing God to place the pieces together for us.





This is very true. And you point out something that many do not really stop to consider, and that is the sacrifices offered in the Old Testament. We see animal death from the very beginning for the covering of sin, and is traced through Abel, Noah, Job, Abraham, and then included in the Law, which was the last economy before Christ came.

On the last forum I was on, a fellow denied that those sacrifice brought about atonement and remission of sins, despite being shown God stating they were commanded to offer up sacrifice for their sin. He would not be convinced, yet, this is simply basic to the Old Testament, so you can imagine trying to approach understanding the Sacrifice of Christ and not understanding that which was basic.

And the major difference between the two has to be established, which is, those sacrifices could not take away sins (which is why they were continually offered), but Christ's does. And this on an eternal basis.




We can say they were "saved the same way," that is, by grace through faith. But we don't negate the fact that promise is promise until fulfilled. And those saints received not the promise.




It is true that modern liberal theology has sought to spiritualize the Bible to the point where the very teachings which generated the fear of God in yesteryear are now explained away. There are numerous very popular false teachers which go so far to deny there will be a Hell in which the lost will be eternally separated from God in.

The teaching of the Rich Man and Lazarus can be seen to fit into the Age of Law, for Abraham does not direct the brethren of the Rich Man to Christ, but to Moses and the Prophets (and He was speaking about the Hebrew Scriptures).

I take the position that men did not go into the presence of God at death, because their sins had not yet been atoned for. A few verses to support that, if I have not already given them, would be...


Hebrews 9

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

("was a figure" is a link)


This speaks of man's entrance to God, it is earthly, and is contrasted with the "Holiest of All," the way into which was not yet present.


[SUP]23 [/SUP]It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:



Our Great High Priest did not take an offering into an earthly Tabernacle, but into Heaven itself.



Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

[SUP]20 [/SUP]By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


Man's entrance to God in truth is through the Blood (Death) of Christ. So we see in two ways where man's entrance to God is said not to take place prior to the Cross. We see that because there was an earthly Tabernacle intended for services meant to bring atonement, and we see it in that entrance to the Holiest of all is credited to Christ's death, and this is contrasted with the death of animals numerous times.





And we see that the veil of the Tabernacle represented the "good things to come," that is, the Incarnation:


Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

[SUP]20 [/SUP]By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


Under the Law men entered into the only representation of God's presence available to them in these days, and this was through the veil. The veil we go through is the flesh of Christ, which refers to the Cross.

In other words, if someone wants to come into God's presence, they must go through Christ, and this means specific trust in His death in our stead for the remission of sins.



Hey thanks for participating. This is, in my view, one of the most rewarding studies we have.


God bless.

I must admit this is a lot to take in and I'm working on it. But this type of study is the way the Bible needs to be read if we want to get into proper interpretation. At times it seems overwhelming since there is just so much to remember to apply and reapply and when we need to do that comparing and applying yet again. But I've found that the Holy Spirit helps us remember things we humanly couldn't do in our own strength.

For instance what you said about the Hebrew Scriptures;

"The teaching of the Rich Man and Lazarus can be seen to fit into the Age of Law, for Abraham does not direct the brethren of the Rich Man to Christ, but to Moses and the Prophets (and He was speaking about the Hebrew Scriptures).

I take the position that men did not go into the presence of God at death, because their sins had not yet been atoned for. A few verses to support that, if I have not already given them, would be..."
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

This is just ONE of many things you addressed, how Abraham does not address them to Christ but to Moses and the prophets. This to me is very interesting for instance. Being able use different verses rightly dividing the Word to gain a proper understanding and not get the truths and times and covenants mixed up. I never actually considered this as speaking to the Hebrew scriptures. There is so much to delve into and many of us have only just begun to 'look into these things' Reminds me of the verse that encourages us to learn to know Him and the power of His resurrection.,

It's good you're able to remember what each person posted and answering the posts accordingly, what was said and directly approaching it with Scripture for an answer. I hope your challenges are met because these are important things in the Bible for us to consider and get answers to and not just say this person is wrong or that person is wrong.

 

[Gr8grace]

Buy if the Holy Spirit was not in them how could they be 'circumcised in heart'? How could they 'make themselves a new heart and a new spirit'? (Ezek 18.31). How could a right Spirit be renewed within them? (Psalm 51.10).

For me. Just one question will answer this. Do we, as believers, pray to God that He doesn't take His Spirit away from us?

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]11 Cast me not away from Your presence;[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]and take not Your Holy Spirit from me.

[/FONT]David was a mature believer at this point in His life. David was saved and eternally secure in the promise.

The natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him. How then could OT saints know the truth about God.

Direct revelation from God,signs,wonders,appearing's,prophets.

When John said, 'the Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified' he was referring to the outpouring of the Spirit promised by the prophets. He was not referring to the individual experience of believers. Indeed Jesus thought that Nicodemus should have known what it mean to be born from above.

I do disagree. This was the baptism of the Spirit, His sealing of believers. If it wasn't, David would have never had to pray to God to NOT take His Spirit from him.

Being sealed with the Spirit/baptized in the Spirit is a grace gift for the church only.

OT saints were sealed and secure with the promise. The baptism or sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit is unique to the Church and is not found in the OT.

And I do agree that Nicodemus should of known about being born from above. Jesus Christ uses the born of water(physical birth) language for a specific purpose. Nicodemus knew of the "shadow" of the ritual of the water in the laver in the temple. Nicodemus knew of the spiritual connotation/analogy of the water.

 

[ladylynn]

Yes, it was a major revelation to me to understand that we do not pray or sing that song "take not Thy Holy Spirit from me"
it was different for David. Something to do with an anointing given to David.

The Holy Spirit came and went on those OT saints. When David did evil stuff, the HS left. And I also agree with you Gr8grace that the gift of the Holy Spirit was specifically for this dispensation of the church. Also other gifts given specifically to those in the church age of grace., covenant of grace.

After the believers leave this planet (and I believe that will occur when Jesus returns for His church it what is commonly referred to as the rapture of the church.) The taking away. Then the HS will also be out of the way in a much different way than now. And as is said., all hell will break loose. 7 year tribulation and in those 7 years there is another way God deals with people.

Right now we do not have to bear God's judgement because Jesus has already done so for the Church., the Bride. Dispensations are very interesting to look into. God deals with man at different times in various ways. Again, we live in an amazing time now. Some people call it the Benjamin generation.

 

[Kefa54]

What about the Gentiles?

I would have been then and was a Gentile when I accepted Christ. What about the old testament gentiles?

Kefa

 

[Gr8grace]

Yes, it was a major revelation to me to understand that we do not pray or sing that song "take not Thy Holy Spirit from me"
it was different for David. Something to do with an anointing given to David.

The Holy Spirit came and went on those OT saints. When David did evil stuff, the HS left. And I also agree with you Gr8grace that the gift of the Holy Spirit was specifically for this dispensation of the church. Also other gifts given specifically to those in the church age of grace., covenant of grace.

After the believers leave this planet (and I believe that will occur when Jesus returns for His church it what is commonly referred to as the rapture of the church.) The taking away. Then the HS will also be out of the way in a much different way than now. And as is said., all hell will break loose. 7 year tribulation and in those 7 years there is another way God deals with people.

Right now we do not have to bear God's judgement because Jesus has already done so for the Church., the Bride. Dispensations are very interesting to look into. God deals with man at different times in various ways. Again, we live in an amazing time now. Some people call it the Benjamin generation.

I am with you. Dispensational truth is key to this thread. And the majority of Churches are stuck in covenant theology. A lot of rich and valuable truths are lost in covenant theology.

The Church has many grace gift's that OT saints never had. And Christ in YOU is one.

Blessed are those who have never SEEN and believed. Nothing special about us, but God designed it this way.

 

[Gr8grace]

I would have been then and was a Gentile when I accepted Christ. What about the old testament gentiles?

Kefa

For me, the simple answer..............they were OT saints just like David,Solomon, Moses. These men and people like them brought the Gospel to the gentiles. Israel was the client nation that brought salvation(Gods word) to the gentiles and everyone.


Israel gave up,quit,failed in doing this, so He left Israel(for a time) and switched to the Gentiles for spreading His Gospel.

 

[ladylynn]

I am with you. Dispensational truth is key to this thread. And the majority of Churches are stuck in covenant theology. A lot of rich and valuable truths are lost in covenant theology.

The Church has many grace gift's that OT saints never had. And Christ in YOU is one.

Blessed are those who have never SEEN and believed. Nothing special about us, but God designed it this way.

Exactly, there is nothing special about us but for some reason He chose to put us in this time frame 'for such a time as this'
I think no matter what dispensation a believer is in, they know the love of God in such an amazing way. Just read the Psalms and it's obvious David knew he was loved and he encouraged others to magnify the Lord with him too. Profound awareness that God is for us and will take care of us. And God is so gracious and lovely He allows us all to share in that knowledge.

Yes, it's really a shame so many are into anything that teaches other than the grace of God in this time (dispensation) What is the definition of 'covenant theology? I've heard it mentioned here and there but didn't know what it meant.

Amen, Christ IN YOU the hope of glory!

 

[crossnote]

They were on the right side of the fence that's for sure. They were in Abraham's bosom awaiting Jesus to come get them. I believe they had the promise of eternal life but Jesus had not yet paid for it. But His promise is a guarantee.
Luke 16:19-31

"Abraham's bosom - Figurative speech for paradise. Hades, the unseen world in general, but specifically here the abode of the unsaved dead between death and judgement. There is conscious existence after death; and the reality and torment of hell., no second chance after death and the impossibility of the dead communicating with the living. These men the rich man and Lazarus were 2 different lives, 2 different deaths and 2 different destinies."

I'm not sure how this worked since when they died, they died in faith but Jesus had not yet died on the cross. It does however really speak to the fact that the new covenant is so much better than the old covenant of law. We who are under the new covenant of Grace have it better than even David or any of the old testament saints. The Holy Spirit gave David the ability to see the future and all of us believers under this new covenant of grace when David said blessed are they whose iniquities were not counted against us and whose sins are remembered no more as he wrote in one of the Psalms.

This is a very interesting topic to discuss as it shows just how blessed we truly are and how dearly loved we are by God.

Again, different covenants, different requirements and different results. We live in an amazing time today.

lots of theories on Abrahams bosom including with Christ Himself.

 

[ladylynn]

lots of theories on Abrahams bosom including with Christ Himself.

Not sure what you mean crossnote about 'theories' ?? These fast little sentences often don't hit the mark with me so more explanation is required on your part.

 

[Gr8grace]

Exactly, there is nothing special about us but for some reason He chose to put us in this time frame 'for such a time as this'
I think no matter what dispensation a believer is in, they know the love of God in such an amazing way. Just read the Psalms and it's obvious David knew he was loved and he encouraged others to magnify the Lord with him too. Profound awareness that God is for us and will take care of us. And God is so gracious and lovely He allows us all to share in that knowledge.

Yes, it's really a shame so many are into anything that teaches other than the grace of God in this time (dispensation) What is the definition of 'covenant theology? I've heard it mentioned here and there but didn't know what it meant.

Amen, Christ IN YOU the hope of glory!

Lots of varied forms of covenant theology. my simplest explanation................The Church is Israel. and there are no distinctions, no 1000 year reign and no rapture...........in my Area 90% of the churches are covenant theology,and this usually comes from reformed or calvinist churches.

 

[crossnote]

This statement was not actually in the OP, but perhaps in the op, lol.

Okay, let's start over. I asked you "Did you have eternal life before your sins were forgiven, Crossnote?"

Your response was...





Now why would the Old Testament Saints have eternal life before their sins were forgiven on an eternal basis, but not you?

See the problem there? What we would have to say is that you too had eternal life before you were forgiven your sins, which you admit, rightly so, no...you did not have eternal life before you were forgiven.

And we cannot argue that they received eternal life through the atonement received through animal sacrifice, that is the very point the writer of Hebrews makes here...


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The blood of bulls and goats sanctified on a temporal basis, to the purifying of the flesh. But as Christ teaches in John 6, apart from belief in Christ's death, men do not have life. They walk around physically, having a body and a spirit, but that is not equated to eternal life.


Consider:


1 John 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

[SUP]2 [/SUP](For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)

John ties Eternal Life to the Incarnation, saying that life was the Word (John 1), and was with the Father (pre-existed), and was manifested unto us.

Now let's go back to the question, and change it a little, and ask...

"...why didn't you have eternal life before your sins were forgiven?"


God bless.

the ot saints had eternal life not because of the animal sacrificesbut because of THE ETERNAL SACRIFICE
Shed before the foundation of the world. You are thinking in natural terms of Christ sacrifice. His was a sacrifice with eternal reach, so it was no problem to be applied to the ot saints then.

 

[crossnote]

They had the same life unbelievers had, being made up of body and spirit, and thus a soul.

But when God created Adam He breathed the Breath of Life into Him, whereas Adam's descendants are said to after Adam's likeness and image:


Genesis 5

King James Version (KJV)
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:


Thus we distinguish between the life men are born into, and the life men receive through trusting Christ, which is the Eternal Life says repeatedly HE specifically came to bestow on those that believe.

We know there were believers saved by grace through faith in the Old Testament, but, their faith was limited to the revelation they were provided. Abraham, for example, thought that when God promised all families of the earth would be blessed through his seed, that God was speaking about physical descendants, which was true, but was not the ultimate understanding of the Promise of God given him. Thus he could have faith to sacrifice Isaac, because he knew God would have to0 resurrect Isaac, because the blessing were to be through His seed.

But we understand it better:


Galatians 3:16

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


The "Seed" through which all families of the earth would be blessed...we now know to be a reference to Christ. Just as the "Seed of Woman" is a reference to Christ.

Revelation has been progressive through the Ages, and we have to maintain the revelation provided to those days, just as we can dogmatically state that Abraham did not have the Mystery of the Gospel revealed to him. And Paul makes it clear that the Gospel of Christ was hidden wisdom, secret, and not revealed but in this Age.


God bless.

the OT saints were dead in sins and trespasses? (same kind of life as unbelievers). Able to be with Christ in his glory? I'm not buying it.

 

[Gr8grace]

Exactly, there is nothing special about us but for some reason He chose to put us in this time frame 'for such a time as this'
I think no matter what dispensation a believer is in, they know the love of God in such an amazing way. Just read the Psalms and it's obvious David knew he was loved and he encouraged others to magnify the Lord with him too. Profound awareness that God is for us and will take care of us. And God is so gracious and lovely He allows us all to share in that knowledge.

Yes, it's really a shame so many are into anything that teaches other than the grace of God in this time (dispensation) What is the definition of 'covenant theology? I've heard it mentioned here and there but didn't know what it meant.

Amen, Christ IN YOU the hope of glory!

Want to find out how many people are covenant theology?

Start a Scofield thread!!!! You will come out bloody, I promise.

 

[crossnote]

Everlasting life in the interim state. The great procession, took OT saints from Paradise and transferred them to heaven when Jesus Christ was glorified in His perfect humanity. Heaven was not open to humanity until humanity had its perfect HUMAN redeemer.

Humanity needed a perfect 100% human redeemer.

Jesus Christ is perfect humanity and undiminished deity, but humanity needed a human redeemer. God isn't satisfied with animals. A man needed to die for men. ANd until His humanity was glorified in resurrection BODY, heaven was not open to man.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."

everlasting life? Ok, you are differing from Pilgrim you said the same kind of life as unbelievers.
See post 71. So i don't know why you are trying to defend his position to me.

 

[ladylynn]

Lots of varied forms of covenant theology. my simplest explanation................The Church is Israel. and there are no distinctions, no 1000 year reign and no rapture...........in my Area 90% of the churches are covenant theology,and this usually comes from reformed or calvinist churches.

ok, Not sure how they can think the church is Israel? wow. And there are many here on CC who do not believe in the catching away (rapture) of the church before the tribulation and when the anti Christ is revealed. How the persecution will be so bad for those believers. And I can see why because the HolySpirit will no longer be on the earth when all the Church has left already bringing in the whole tribulation period. And there is another question., When people get saved during the tribulation, they will have the Holy Spirit correct?

 

[crossnote]

Not sure what you mean crossnote about 'theories' ?? These fast little sentences often don't hit the mark with me so more explanation is required on your part.

They are theories, not supported by Scripture but rather by tradition.

 

[Gr8grace]

the OT saints were dead in sins and trespasses? (same kind of life as unbelievers). Able to be with Christ in his glory? I'm not buying it.

Crossnote, we pretty much agree on everything. Am I overlooking something here?

Is it just semantics? Because technically, I will say the OT saints had eternal life and were saved from their sins and trespasses and were not still in their sins and trespasses.............but I still believe it didn't become REALITY to them until Jesus Christ was glorified.

What am I missing? We have verses that tell us that we are ALREADY seated with Him. When were the OT saints ever told that they were already seated with Him?

 

[crossnote]

everlasting life? Ok, you are differing from Pilgrim you said the same kind of life as unbelievers.
See post 71. So i don't know why you are trying to defend his position to me.

Crossnote, we pretty much agree on everything. Am I overlooking something here?

Is it just semantics? Because technically, I will say the OT saints had eternal life and were saved from their sins and trespasses and were not still in their sins and trespasses.............but I still don't believe it became REALITY to them until Jesus Christ was glorified.

What am I missing? We have verses that tell us that we are ALREADY seated with Him. When were the OT saints ever told that they were already seated with Him?

Correction...Pilgrim said the OT Saints had the same kind of life as unbelievers.(71) You said they had eternal life...which I agree.

 

[Gr8grace]

Correction...Pilgrim said the OT Saints had the same kind of life as unbelievers.(71) You said they had eternal life...which I agree.

Thanks Buddy. I will have to read a little closer.