Were Miracles only for the Apostolic Age?
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Amen. The only people who need "proof" are those who don't really believe or have faith in God and His Holy Promise of salvation in Christ.
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remember always that God loves and understands you even if the rest of the world doesn't seem to be able to do either.
I'm sorry for your lose and praise God for your faith.
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remember always that God loves and understands you even if the rest of the world doesn't seem to be able to do either. I'm sorry for your lose and praise God for your faith.
Go jump on someone else band wagon.
You acted as if I hated God because I had cancer. That is the impression you gave me.
I was telling you about myself so you may understand more where I am coming from.
I am a nice person, I am also stressed. I am tired, and I have to take on alot of responisbility that I am not always sure I can deal with.
TO me, a baby is not a miracle. IT is not a supernatural thing, but i can see why you call it a miracle. I mean a baby is a wonderful blessing from God. FROM GOD. MAny people call something from God a miracle when I look at things in a more literal sense.
I am not at all knocking you for how you believe. I just dont necessarily agree.
Sometime, I will tell mor about my sister and her passing. Other things happened that night that I cannot explain. Alot of questions from a medical and spiritual standpoint. Keep in mind tha twas the first time I have even seen someone die. Hope it was my last.
Nah I was asking if you did hate so you could get it out.. I know some who get sick and then blame God. I didn't want it to be a part of you. I didn't know so I asked. I just felt like you needed to talk and needed a lil push.
I'm going through all kinds of things too. Life is a mess sometimes. I'll be praying for you. I know it's hard. I lost my older brother at 43 and then one of my younger ones a few years ago.
Yha we don't agree cause I think even the air I breath is a miracle of God. <smile>
Good night!
I do believe in miricals, that they are and will continue to happen.
Many have quoted scripture saying that God is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow.
If God is the same, then why should we speak of anything different in faith?
Scripture says, God does what pleases Him.
I have yet seen any scripture that speaks to miricals ending.
I have read scripture giving instructions to recieving these gifts.
Ive seen miricals, some may not be by one's definition, but will be by anothers.
I see all as being granted in Jesus a mirical.
Everything came into being because of Him.
Actually I see everything of creation as a mirical.
As to what one believes in this subject?
It is not to the flesh one looks for justfication, but in faith, believing and living in this faith in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.
All given through the power of the Holy Spirit by God Our Father.
Because in the end, one must give an account of one's self before God.
This subject will continue to be debated, and some will disagree.
What matters most though, is that all recieve and know the gift of salvation in Jesus, each ones name written in the book of life!
Thankyou Jesus for this great gift.
God bless.
pickles
Many have quoted scripture saying that God is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow.
If God is the same, then why should we speak of anything different in faith?
Scripture says, God does what pleases Him.
I have yet seen any scripture that speaks to miricals ending.
I have read scripture giving instructions to recieving these gifts.
Ive seen miricals, some may not be by one's definition, but will be by anothers.
I see all as being granted in Jesus a mirical.
Everything came into being because of Him.
Actually I see everything of creation as a mirical.
As to what one believes in this subject?
It is not to the flesh one looks for justfication, but in faith, believing and living in this faith in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.
All given through the power of the Holy Spirit by God Our Father.
Because in the end, one must give an account of one's self before God.
This subject will continue to be debated, and some will disagree.
What matters most though, is that all recieve and know the gift of salvation in Jesus, each ones name written in the book of life!
Thankyou Jesus for this great gift.
God bless.
pickles
I do believe in miricals, that they are and will continue to happen.
Many have quoted scripture saying that God is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow.
If God is the same, then why should we speak of anything different in faith?
Scripture says, God does what pleases Him.
I have yet seen any scripture that speaks to miricals ending.
I have read scripture giving instructions to recieving these gifts.
Ive seen miricals, some may not be by one's definition, but will be by anothers.
I see all as being granted in Jesus a mirical.
Everything came into being because of Him.
Actually I see everything of creation as a mirical.
As to what one believes in this subject?
It is not to the flesh one looks for justfication, but in faith, believing and living in this faith in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.
All given through the power of the Holy Spirit by God Our Father.
Because in the end, one must give an account of one's self before God.
This subject will continue to be debated, and some will disagree.
What matters most though, is that all recieve and know the gift of salvation in Jesus, each ones name written in the book of life!
Thankyou Jesus for this great gift.
God bless.
pickles
Many have quoted scripture saying that God is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow.
If God is the same, then why should we speak of anything different in faith?
Scripture says, God does what pleases Him.
I have yet seen any scripture that speaks to miricals ending.
I have read scripture giving instructions to recieving these gifts.
Ive seen miricals, some may not be by one's definition, but will be by anothers.
I see all as being granted in Jesus a mirical.
Everything came into being because of Him.
Actually I see everything of creation as a mirical.
As to what one believes in this subject?
It is not to the flesh one looks for justfication, but in faith, believing and living in this faith in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.
All given through the power of the Holy Spirit by God Our Father.
Because in the end, one must give an account of one's self before God.
This subject will continue to be debated, and some will disagree.
What matters most though, is that all recieve and know the gift of salvation in Jesus, each ones name written in the book of life!
Thankyou Jesus for this great gift.
God bless.
pickles
Ive seen this scripture as well, it is the only one used often in this debate. My pastor and I had many good discussions on this as well.
The first time I read this scripture , the understanding recived never spoke to these things ceasing
then, or saying these things are no longer.
It says nothing about miricals.
Most bibles scripture say" when the perfect comes" refuring to when Jesus comes, returns.
I also see this scripture speaking to much more when read from beginning to finish.
the interpitation given speaks to the maturity of one in Jesus, no longer needed these imperfect things in ones relationship in Jesus Christ, but they are still needed for those on milk.
It also says knowladge will pass away, and that has not happened yet.
Yet, it speaks to in the end three things that last, faith, hope and love. The greatest of these being love.
I believe it speaks to the relationship in Jesus, where the perfection of Jesus is made perfect in one.
That nothing of the flesh is needed, only the perfect love in and of Jesus.
I believe this speaks to the goal we are called to in Jesus, that we will know.
As said before, it is before God in Jesus that one must live in faith.
I will continue to believe in all that are miricals, prophacy, and that which Jesus said we would do in the last days.
Simply because it is the word of Jesus Christ.
It is His word I will follow and live in faith.
Always subject to God Our Father's chastisment and correction though.
I say this only because, well , He is Our God, and I will not debate with Him.
And we know only in part.
Yet seek through faith, His perfection in Jesus!
In Jesus, God bless.
pickles
Ive seen this scripture as well, it is the only one used often in this debate. My pastor and I had many good discussions on this as well.
The first time I read this scripture , the understanding recived never spoke to these things ceasing
then, or saying these things are no longer.
It says nothing about miricals.
Most bibles scripture say" when the perfect comes" refuring to when Jesus comes, returns.
I also see this scripture speaking to much more when read from beginning to finish.
the interpitation given speaks to the maturity of one in Jesus, no longer needed these imperfect things in ones relationship in Jesus Christ, but they are still needed for those on milk.
It also says knowladge will pass away, and that has not happened yet.
Yet, it speaks to in the end three things that last, faith, hope and love. The greatest of these being love.
I believe it speaks to the relationship in Jesus, where the perfection of Jesus is made perfect in one.
That nothing of the flesh is needed, only the perfect love in and of Jesus.
I believe this speaks to the goal we are called to in Jesus, that we will know.
As said before, it is before God in Jesus that one must live in faith.
I will continue to believe in all that are miricals, prophacy, and that which Jesus said we would do in the last days.
Simply because it is the word of Jesus Christ.
It is His word I will follow and live in faith.
Always subject to God Our Father's chastisment and correction though.
I say this only because, well , He is Our God, and I will not debate with Him.
And we know only in part.
Yet seek through faith, His perfection in Jesus!
In Jesus, God bless.
pickles
Ok, you have pointed out the different interpretation. Glad you did!
I've done alot of reading as well, and I have stated why I use this verse in previous posts, but I will say it again because there is no need for you to have to look back and read when I can just repeat it....anyway..
I always looked at that scriptures as saying when the word of God is complete, meaning the bible. Signs and wonders were used in the first century bcv the WRITTEN bible was not completed yet so they had the ability for the Apostles(and anyone they chose thru God) to perform miracles and other supernatural things. I am also one of those that think when the apostles died then the gifts "died" with them.
OF course miracles and signs would cease when JEsus comes....so will the Earth and everything in it. I just don't understand why that scripture woudl say when Jesus comes these things woudl cease. Everything ceases. Why woudl it specifically talk about those things?
I always thought that PERFECT meant the bible.
Anyway, that is my interpretation of the verse and THANK YOU for explaining what you think the meaning was. IT is alot easier for me to understand the "other side".
You are taking 1 Corinthians 13:8 out of context if you are purposing that those things will all together vanish. The point of that passage is that all those things can pass away, but charity, love, remains. You can prophesy, speak in tongues, but what good is it if you have no charity? What good are all the spiritual gifts if you have no love?
There are indeed miracles everyday. We still speak in tongues. We still prophesy. Without love though, there is no point.
There are indeed miracles everyday. We still speak in tongues. We still prophesy. Without love though, there is no point.
Beth:
certain sects believe physical healing is guaranteed in the Atonement.
they are generally found wthin the Word/Faith movement.
this is why we have "faith healers", and why people are told if they have enough "faith" God will not only heal them, but that it is God's will that no one (christians?) ever be sick.
the more extreme fanatics say all sickness is demon possession.
this site compares the REAL Atonement to the Word Faith version:
Atonement in Word of Faith . . .
One of the most visible movements of Christendom today is the Word of Faith movement. One can hardly turn on a television without coming into contact with one of its purveyors. Millions of Christians follow the charismatic leaders that are displayed on a number of Christian networks. Most are not aware of the origins or teachings of Faith theology, particularly as it relates to essential Christian doctrine.
At the heart of Christianity is the doctrine of atonement. In this doctrine we understand the work of Jesus and the love He and the Father shared for their creation. It is important for Christians to understand the nature of Christ's sacrifice and how we became reconciled to the creator of the universe.
The Faith movement has introduced cultic teaching about the sacrifice of Jesus and diminished His finished work. This article will first explore the orthodox view of atonement and then examine the origins of the Faith movement and its views on atonement. The article will conclude with an analysis of the Faith movement's theology on the atonement in light of the Bible and reason.
cont....
Atonement in Word of Faith Movement
certain sects believe physical healing is guaranteed in the Atonement.
they are generally found wthin the Word/Faith movement.
this is why we have "faith healers", and why people are told if they have enough "faith" God will not only heal them, but that it is God's will that no one (christians?) ever be sick.
the more extreme fanatics say all sickness is demon possession.
this site compares the REAL Atonement to the Word Faith version:
Atonement in Word of Faith . . .
One of the most visible movements of Christendom today is the Word of Faith movement. One can hardly turn on a television without coming into contact with one of its purveyors. Millions of Christians follow the charismatic leaders that are displayed on a number of Christian networks. Most are not aware of the origins or teachings of Faith theology, particularly as it relates to essential Christian doctrine.
At the heart of Christianity is the doctrine of atonement. In this doctrine we understand the work of Jesus and the love He and the Father shared for their creation. It is important for Christians to understand the nature of Christ's sacrifice and how we became reconciled to the creator of the universe.
The Faith movement has introduced cultic teaching about the sacrifice of Jesus and diminished His finished work. This article will first explore the orthodox view of atonement and then examine the origins of the Faith movement and its views on atonement. The article will conclude with an analysis of the Faith movement's theology on the atonement in light of the Bible and reason.
cont....
Atonement in Word of Faith Movement
SMITH WIGGLESWORTH
SMITH WIGGLESWORTH (1859-1947) was a famous Pentecostal evangelist and faith healer. Many books have been written about his unusual life. He was converted in a Methodist church, confirmed as an Anglican, and as a young man was associated with the Salvation Army and Plymouth Brethren.
In 1907 he claimed that he was "baptised in the Holy Spirit" after hands were laid on him by Mary Boddy, who alleged to have had a Pentecostal experience only a month prior to that. Mrs. Boddy believed in the doctrine of healing in the atonement, but she spent the last sixteen years of her life as an invalid.
Wigglesworth, too, believed that physical healing is guaranteed in the atonement of Christ. He taught against the use of all medicine. He believed that signs and wonders should always follow the preaching of the Gospel. He taught that a Christian can be justified and sanctified but still not have everything necessary from God. "People are never safe until they are baptized with the Holy Ghost" (Wigglesworth, "The Place of Power," June 1916, reprinted in The Anointing of His Spirit, p. 151).
http://www.toetsalles.nl/htmldoc/nb-smithwigglesworth.htm
It would be smart for everyone to look at more than that ONE verse to understand the meaning. Where thie issues lies is the word "PERFECT".
Look back at vers 10. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
I think we can all agree that this is in refence to something that hasn't happened yet, but is to come....in the future.
We also need to understand that what is yet to come is going to serve as a permanent replacement of what is "in part" and will serve in its place more completely.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
What is to pass away was only temporary. tIts purpose was to serve a specific purpose until such time that its more complete replacement arrived on the scene. When this happened, the temporary would be obsolete and be done away with.
Verse 9 says WE meaning the body All Christians had partial knowledge and partial prophetic ability. This means no one person had all complete knowledge.
Miracles, knowledge, prophecy was served for the will of God in the infancy of the church BEFORE the bible had been written, copied and ditributed throughout the world.
Without the written record of God's will, first century Christians had no way of knowing the complete will of God. They knew part of it but not all of it because none of them had complete knowledge with the exception of the apostles. So until this was accomplished the Holy Spirit helped them along with partial knowledge and prophecy. When the need for this was no longer necessary the gifts of the Holy Spirit would be replaced with a complete written record of God's will for man.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
the CHILD meaning in this means obvous infancy of the church. CHIlDISH THINGS means the miraculous gifts, tongue and so on.
As a child we are still learning. Not yet mature. We do not have all knowledge so we go to school, and observe others for knowledge.
The bible is the book of knowledge. It is complete.
Verse 13 says faith, hope, and love. Those are the 3 things we as Christians posess today.
We don't need miraculous gifts in the present day when the book of knowledge is complete. When I say COMPLETE I do not mean all things have come to pass. I mean we all know Jesus hasnt returned to earth yet.
Through faith, hope, and love we are sure that God will bless us while we are on Earth. Without these 3 things we have nothing.
Look back at vers 10. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
I think we can all agree that this is in refence to something that hasn't happened yet, but is to come....in the future.
We also need to understand that what is yet to come is going to serve as a permanent replacement of what is "in part" and will serve in its place more completely.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
What is to pass away was only temporary. tIts purpose was to serve a specific purpose until such time that its more complete replacement arrived on the scene. When this happened, the temporary would be obsolete and be done away with.
Verse 9 says WE meaning the body All Christians had partial knowledge and partial prophetic ability. This means no one person had all complete knowledge.
Miracles, knowledge, prophecy was served for the will of God in the infancy of the church BEFORE the bible had been written, copied and ditributed throughout the world.
Without the written record of God's will, first century Christians had no way of knowing the complete will of God. They knew part of it but not all of it because none of them had complete knowledge with the exception of the apostles. So until this was accomplished the Holy Spirit helped them along with partial knowledge and prophecy. When the need for this was no longer necessary the gifts of the Holy Spirit would be replaced with a complete written record of God's will for man.
In the account of Simon the sorcerer we learn that the gifts of the Holy Ghost were passed to others only from the hands of an apostle as recorded Acts 8:18-19, "And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost." Simon recognized the fact that he could not pass the gifts of the Holy Spirit on and he wanted to buy that ability. Philip the evangelist traveled to Samaria with the gospel but he was not an apostle. The Samaritans could not receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost until Peter and John arrived to lay their hands on them. So we know from scripture that the miraculous manifestations of the Holy Spirit have passed from the scene because 20 centuries removed, there can be nobody left alive who received these gifts from an apostle.
We know that the miraculous gifts were temporary. We know that only an apostle could pass them on. We know that the miraculous gifts of knowledge and prophecy served in an instructional capacity for the first century Christians. So the question then becomes, what is it that would serve in an instructional capacity to Christians which would be complete and permanent? The answer to that question is the identification of "that which is perfect". We understand this to be the complete written record of God's will for man.
We know that the miraculous gifts were temporary. We know that only an apostle could pass them on. We know that the miraculous gifts of knowledge and prophecy served in an instructional capacity for the first century Christians. So the question then becomes, what is it that would serve in an instructional capacity to Christians which would be complete and permanent? The answer to that question is the identification of "that which is perfect". We understand this to be the complete written record of God's will for man.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
the CHILD meaning in this means obvous infancy of the church. CHIlDISH THINGS means the miraculous gifts, tongue and so on.
As a child we are still learning. Not yet mature. We do not have all knowledge so we go to school, and observe others for knowledge.
The bible is the book of knowledge. It is complete.
Verse 13 says faith, hope, and love. Those are the 3 things we as Christians posess today.
We don't need miraculous gifts in the present day when the book of knowledge is complete. When I say COMPLETE I do not mean all things have come to pass. I mean we all know Jesus hasnt returned to earth yet.
Through faith, hope, and love we are sure that God will bless us while we are on Earth. Without these 3 things we have nothing.