What 3 verses say that a lost man cannot believe the gospel?
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Context, once again what kind of works are we talking about here.
The works of the Law.
Says nothing at all in regards to the works of faith
Context, Jesus did not save or call us because of our works. AKA why he did it was of his own purpose and grace
Says nothing to our works of faith in laying hold of that which Christ laid hold of us for.
Context, what kind of works are we talking about here?
Works according to our own righteousness?
Again says nothing in regards to our works if Faith like Abraham.
Romans 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had ...
If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had
something to boast about--but not before God. ...
//biblehub.com/romans/4-2.htm - 18k
Context: works of the Law.
James 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute ...
... And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when
she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? ...
//biblehub.com/james/2-25.htm - 19k
Context: works of Faith
James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what ...
... You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. ... You see
that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. ...
//biblehub.com/james/2-24.htm - 17k
Context: works of Faith
James 2:21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for ...
... Was not Abraham our father justified by works when
he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? ...
//biblehub.com/james/2-21.htm - 18k
Context: works of Faith
Galatians 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of ...
... yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith
in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be ...
//biblehub.com/galatians/2-16.htm - 22k
Context: works of the Law.
Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith ...
... For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. ... For we maintain
that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. ...
//biblehub.com/romans/3-28.htm - 17k
Context: works of the Law.
Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's ...
... For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law,
because the knowledge of sin comes through the law. ...
//biblehub.com/romans/3-20.htm - 18k
Context: works of the Law.
Matthew 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they ...
... And wisdom is justified by her works. .... ... And wisdom is justified by her works. ...
//biblehub.com/matthew/11-19.htm - 19k
Context: works of Faith AKA the works of wisdom.
If you can not delineate between the two kinds of works at play here then for you the bible is against itself.
We know the bible is not against itself
Let God be true and every man a liar.
So which one is the liar.
Paul or James or the foolish fellow who speak against the word of God when it clearly says?
"You see that a person is justified by works"
What is useless faith?
It is faith without the works of faith that justify.
So is a person really justified by works?
What kind of works justify?
The works of the law, no
So what kind?
The kind of works that makes Faith something other then useless/worthless/inactive
So lets all come to the obedience of faith and be justified by our works.
Let stop rejecting on part of the word of God for another in our ignorance regarding the different kinds of works being discussed.
The works of the Law.
Says nothing at all in regards to the works of faith
Context, Jesus did not save or call us because of our works. AKA why he did it was of his own purpose and grace
Says nothing to our works of faith in laying hold of that which Christ laid hold of us for.
Context, what kind of works are we talking about here?
Works according to our own righteousness?
Again says nothing in regards to our works if Faith like Abraham.
Romans 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had ...
If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had
something to boast about--but not before God. ...
//biblehub.com/romans/4-2.htm - 18k
Context: works of the Law.
James 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute ...
... And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when
she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? ...
//biblehub.com/james/2-25.htm - 19k
Context: works of Faith
James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what ...
... You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. ... You see
that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. ...
//biblehub.com/james/2-24.htm - 17k
Context: works of Faith
James 2:21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for ...
... Was not Abraham our father justified by works when
he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? ...
//biblehub.com/james/2-21.htm - 18k
Context: works of Faith
Galatians 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of ...
... yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith
in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be ...
//biblehub.com/galatians/2-16.htm - 22k
Context: works of the Law.
Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith ...
... For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. ... For we maintain
that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. ...
//biblehub.com/romans/3-28.htm - 17k
Context: works of the Law.
Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's ...
... For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law,
because the knowledge of sin comes through the law. ...
//biblehub.com/romans/3-20.htm - 18k
Context: works of the Law.
Matthew 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they ...
... And wisdom is justified by her works. .... ... And wisdom is justified by her works. ...
//biblehub.com/matthew/11-19.htm - 19k
Context: works of Faith AKA the works of wisdom.
If you can not delineate between the two kinds of works at play here then for you the bible is against itself.
We know the bible is not against itself
Let God be true and every man a liar.
So which one is the liar.
Paul or James or the foolish fellow who speak against the word of God when it clearly says?
"You see that a person is justified by works"
What is useless faith?
It is faith without the works of faith that justify.
So is a person really justified by works?
What kind of works justify?
The works of the law, no
So what kind?
The kind of works that makes Faith something other then useless/worthless/inactive
So lets all come to the obedience of faith and be justified by our works.
Let stop rejecting on part of the word of God for another in our ignorance regarding the different kinds of works being discussed.
E
All of Calvinism rests on this which is non biblical presupposition >>>>>> Total depravity/total inability(wrong) >>> irresistible grace (wrong) >>> regeneration precedes belief (wrong)
Even Paul whom you hold up as your "model" stated very clearly....
Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision
Acts 26:19
Even Paul whom you hold up as your "model" stated very clearly....
Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision
Acts 26:19
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I saw this and thought "well I know where this will go".. and it did.I know the bible says "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" and "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Really a silly question. None of us would be here. Unless one some how believes the word is.. just words written in some book things like that. Not true.
Countless .. I mean countless stories of people that just heard or just read only the Gospel about Christ and are saved.
Forgive me just another thread that went of topic. I guess if we care we would keep it on topic? Just a thought
E
No not really, a lot of the things the church taught and did I thought was foolish, I can remember god drawing me for months. to the point every night I would call out to him, but never really understood what it all meant until a walked the isle and a deacon took me to the side and gave me the gospel in simple terms by walking me through scripture, it was then I know I was saved as I became the tax collector. On my knees in tears calling out to Jesus. I remember it like it was yesterday, even though it was 40 some years ago
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E
these are just questions, in the post you're quoting, and all i'm doing is using the language of algebra to say that there is salvation for those who believe, and condemnation for those who do not. look up all the verses i put -- i'm not eisegeting, i'm just putting scripture together in a structured way to see what conclusions can be drawn -- which is why, i cited several scriptures to justify very basic tenets of our faith, then asked some questions, not declared some opinion by fiat.
if you don't understand some of it, i'd be happy to explain. but yes, i am trying secretly to turn everyone into mathematicians. i consider it valuable. God created mathematics, and the cosmos He created is written in the language of it.
in this thread in particular, maybe an algebraic approach would be an useful tool so that people wouldn't be just shouting opinions they can't substantiate. mathematics is a language of substantiated statement; if you can't justify it fully, you don't say it. that is very different from the usual BDF methodology
if you don't understand some of it, i'd be happy to explain. but yes, i am trying secretly to turn everyone into mathematicians. i consider it valuable. God created mathematics, and the cosmos He created is written in the language of it.
in this thread in particular, maybe an algebraic approach would be an useful tool so that people wouldn't be just shouting opinions they can't substantiate. mathematics is a language of substantiated statement; if you can't justify it fully, you don't say it. that is very different from the usual BDF methodology
thats the problem with those types of examples. They only work if you are 100 percent right, so I would not be so proud of your equation, or use that as a means of trying to show someone Your view, it would take a lot more than that to change someone’s view about double predestination.
E
You keep ignoring half of what I say and picking and Choosing
i showed in Romans where if Paul was saved by works he would have something to boast about he said the same in Ephesians (not of works lest anyone should boast). Abraham was before the law, You can not use the law in context because there was no law in abrahams day, paul is talking to people like you, who are adding works of any type as a means of gaining or earning salvation. Hence the reason you can BOAST of saving yourself by your deeds
in contrast, James is speaking to the people of the other side of the pendulum, people who claim to have faith, but have no works, they are hearers of the word but Not doers, so he calls them out for it,
again, using your line items
paul spoke to people who believed this was true
faith - works - assured salvaion. Works based gospel where one can boast of saving himself or legalisms
james spoke to people who believed like this
mere belief (dead faith) - thought they were saved - no work proved their faith was dead. Ie licentiousness
which is why paul and James appeared to be contradicting each other when they were not.
james stated a fact. I proved abraham was declaired righteous in Gen 15. Decades before Isaac was even born. But the fact abraham did what he did, proved over and over his faith was real not dead. And by that his salvation was justified (declaired true)
not by works of righteousness (any good deed or work) which we have done, but BY HIS MERCY HE SAVED US.
you want to earn salvation by being a pharisee type, feel free.. but me, I became like the tax collector and cried out of Gods mercy, because that is the only thing that will save me, my works are as filthy rags, ain’t no way on judgment day I am giving god my works as payment for sin, he will tell me to depart for he never knew me.
i showed in Romans where if Paul was saved by works he would have something to boast about he said the same in Ephesians (not of works lest anyone should boast). Abraham was before the law, You can not use the law in context because there was no law in abrahams day, paul is talking to people like you, who are adding works of any type as a means of gaining or earning salvation. Hence the reason you can BOAST of saving yourself by your deeds
in contrast, James is speaking to the people of the other side of the pendulum, people who claim to have faith, but have no works, they are hearers of the word but Not doers, so he calls them out for it,
again, using your line items
paul spoke to people who believed this was true
faith - works - assured salvaion. Works based gospel where one can boast of saving himself or legalisms
james spoke to people who believed like this
mere belief (dead faith) - thought they were saved - no work proved their faith was dead. Ie licentiousness
which is why paul and James appeared to be contradicting each other when they were not.
james stated a fact. I proved abraham was declaired righteous in Gen 15. Decades before Isaac was even born. But the fact abraham did what he did, proved over and over his faith was real not dead. And by that his salvation was justified (declaired true)
not by works of righteousness (any good deed or work) which we have done, but BY HIS MERCY HE SAVED US.
you want to earn salvation by being a pharisee type, feel free.. but me, I became like the tax collector and cried out of Gods mercy, because that is the only thing that will save me, my works are as filthy rags, ain’t no way on judgment day I am giving god my works as payment for sin, he will tell me to depart for he never knew me.
I've only got one variable, an arbitrary person, and I've got two categories, saved or not saved.
All I've demonstrated is that the saved are not lost.
Where are you seeing prejudicial bias in that?
You sure you and 11 aren't the ones with prejudice against what you assume I believe?
All I've demonstrated is that the saved are not lost.
Where are you seeing prejudicial bias in that?
You sure you and 11 aren't the ones with prejudice against what you assume I believe?
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Romans 3:10-11
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Isn't this exceedingly obvious which happened first? God draws a person. Then they seek after the Truth.
What you said is totally correct. Just your implication is incorrect.
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Isn't this exceedingly obvious which happened first? God draws a person. Then they seek after the Truth.
What you said is totally correct. Just your implication is incorrect.
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EleventhHour.
No both are not simultaneously correct but either could be in a specific setting.
I think both of you have decided I'm in a 'rival gang' so you are being aggressively contrary towards things that you actually both believe.
What I'm actually trying to work toward with this math is to show belief and regeneration can't be separated. Which is to say, belief neither precedes nor follows regeneration.
Is that what you've been thinking doing? I bet it's not. You mentioned 'double predestination' out of nowhere ((because I certainly haven't been talking about it)) - so I was guessing that's what you think I am doing math for? No, bro. I'm doing math because it takes the bias and opinion and eisegesis out of this topic. So we can hopefully talk about it without bitterness and presupposition.
No both are not simultaneously correct but either could be in a specific setting.
I think both of you have decided I'm in a 'rival gang' so you are being aggressively contrary towards things that you actually both believe.
What I'm actually trying to work toward with this math is to show belief and regeneration can't be separated. Which is to say, belief neither precedes nor follows regeneration.
Is that what you've been thinking doing? I bet it's not. You mentioned 'double predestination' out of nowhere ((because I certainly haven't been talking about it)) - so I was guessing that's what you think I am doing math for? No, bro. I'm doing math because it takes the bias and opinion and eisegesis out of this topic. So we can hopefully talk about it without bitterness and presupposition.
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Hmmmm.
I would consider that, some people who "don't know how to rejoice" might actually be suffering from a form of chronic depression or anxiety, and not even be aware of this. Depression and anxiety can seriously affect beliefs, feelings, and skew perception of reality.
NOT speaking of anyone on this thread, just in general, just writing because I'd just like people to keep their eye out for this and not instantly judge other people on their lack of hope and abundance of fear. They actually might need help, and they don't even know it.
The Truth of the Word trumps emotions. All emotions proceed from the flesh anyway. Joy itself is also an emotion.
I kind of think that Hope, or "faith knowledge" as I like to call it, is the true joy, that we can have because it's not dependent upon or proceeding from the flesh, but entirely hung upon the Spirit.
"Yet will I praise Him". And one can say this even when depressed and feeling horrible, because it is the Spirit that gives us hope.
I would consider that, some people who "don't know how to rejoice" might actually be suffering from a form of chronic depression or anxiety, and not even be aware of this. Depression and anxiety can seriously affect beliefs, feelings, and skew perception of reality.
NOT speaking of anyone on this thread, just in general, just writing because I'd just like people to keep their eye out for this and not instantly judge other people on their lack of hope and abundance of fear. They actually might need help, and they don't even know it.
The Truth of the Word trumps emotions. All emotions proceed from the flesh anyway. Joy itself is also an emotion.
I kind of think that Hope, or "faith knowledge" as I like to call it, is the true joy, that we can have because it's not dependent upon or proceeding from the flesh, but entirely hung upon the Spirit.
"Yet will I praise Him". And one can say this even when depressed and feeling horrible, because it is the Spirit that gives us hope.
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Math is great because it has rules and it is simple and logical.
Scripture is the same way.
People are not this way. People will devise all sorts of complicated systems to try and support their views.
Because scripture is simple to understand. But it can get complicated to explain to someone else. Especially if they already have views that need to be corrected or contradict other scriptures.
So really, you just end up preaching to the choir... Those who understand are those who already understood...
Scripture is the same way.
People are not this way. People will devise all sorts of complicated systems to try and support their views.
Because scripture is simple to understand. But it can get complicated to explain to someone else. Especially if they already have views that need to be corrected or contradict other scriptures.
So really, you just end up preaching to the choir... Those who understand are those who already understood...
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