what church can i go to?

[loveme1]

I think the arguments for the catholic religion, only prove how cunning the pagans have become in deceiving people.

The Bible tells us much, if you are willing to ignore scripture then you have allowed the delusion to fall on you.

It is difficult to view the deception, but all things will come to pass and the truth will be known.

I pray when that moment comes you will realise that Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah is the truth always and forever.

 

[GreenNnice]

And why exactly are they pagan? Because they honor Mary more than other churches? That seems a rather bad definition for the word pagan...

If that was what they were really doing......... But it is not, so pagan is very fitting.

Honoring Mary yet saying: They ask Mary to speak to Christ on their behalf, much as you and I ask our friends to pray for us.

Big difference between Mary being asked by catholics to speak to Christ on their behalf and having friends pray for us is.....

...only one of the two is in the Bible, and, its not the Mary speaking that's in there. Bible says: 'Where two or more are gathered (praying to God) in my name there I am with them also.'

No in scripture is one tittle of information saying Mary is to be asked to pray to Christ by believers.

Apologist, how many protestant denominations you know that include The Nicean Creed in their belief ? Name them.


Biggest problem I have with catholicism is they say they are the one true church (Christ's church).
I think that kind of thinking is unpeaceful and breeds hatred among Christians and catholics. It speaks that your some Master Race. You're not the second coming of Hitler, I hope. But, yeah, controversial, no way to understand that , as that will cause huge dissension right there between the two groups of christianity.

The reason catholics and protestants have so much controversy is that catholics get their belief from 6 extra books that they --not protestants--include in The Holy Bible.

God says in scripture do not take away add to His Word.
Isn't adding 6 books to the bible going against His words?

To me, I just see a continuance of controversy between catholics and protestants , based on that one fact alone is a foundation of argument beyond understanding and winnability .

Mary was sinless, Mary was with the Holy Spirit seed and God put Christ of Himself in her through normal birthing procedure only to bring Himself unto humanity in a common normal way. God, of course, needed not Mary to conceive Himself, hence, this birth of the man, Jesus, of God, by eay of HS seed, was an immaculate (supernatural, not human help) conception.

 

[loveme1]

It is not Yahshua the Messiah's mother they worship to start with!


when will people wake up from their sleep and see that it is a deception.


They are deceiving people into their pagan beliefs.

They have mixed a little truth to lure people into their lies.


I will say it again.

How do you be seen to honor yet dishonor Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah?


Here is how they do it.

They remove Yahvah God's name.

So when they say god it can mean their god... God is a title.

They changed Yahshua the Messiah's name to Jesus.

When they speak people believe they mean Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.

But it is not true.

You can argue with me until kingdom come....

If you think it sounds "ridiculous" pick up your Bible and read, how else would they deceive people.

Ask yourself: why if they be for Yahvah God do they seek to remove even YHVH from Bible's and songs?

Come on guys now is the time to stop believing man and listen to Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.

They don't like the KJV because they thought they would have full authority over the Bible which made there evil agenda easier, they have now infiltrated the truth in even more cunning ways than ever before....

 

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

Honestly it's very hard to find a good church these days. As the bible says, the church in the end times will be following every wind of doctrine and people will be heaping up teachers to soothe their itching ears.

A good way to see which Church to go to is to use discernment and ask the Holy Spirit.
If anything being taught goes against the word of God, we should avoid that church.
If anything being done goes against the word of God, we should avoid that church.
Any doctrine that differs from the ONE doctrine given to us by Christ should be discarded.

The purpose of the local church is to prepare the sheep for the road we walk which is difficult. It is rare to find a church that concerns itself with armoring the sheep as the first and foremost thing. Pastors need to know the spiritual state of every sheep in their flock which is difficult in large churches that truly need a Godly structural hierarchy. Oftentimes you will see pastors and elders more focused on attendance, getting new people, and tithing instead. Properly armored sheep that walk in Christ's light for the world to see that bring in people to the church that God the Father has prepared the ground. People who are ready to change their lives for God will be attracted to those walking in His light and truth and be brought into the fold.

As we are to be of one mind and one accord, the message being preached from any local church around the world should be the same. The Holy Spirit will not contradict. To find a church that is bible driven and being led by the Holy Spirit is indeed rare, but it is something we should all be earnestly seeking. The Truth will always convict us and challenge us. We should not be seeking a church that makes you feel good, tickles the flesh, or draws you in with a rock concert or other gimmicks. Remember we are led by the Holy Spirit, not our feelings. The Truth will not always be easy. In fact, it is often hard to grasp and apply in our lives when our flesh gets in the way. It will cause us to go through some hardships, but remember our God is a Father that loves us, and He chastens and tests those He loves. He wants us to get it right!

So seek a true narrow road and remnant church. Seek a church that presents God's word in a manner that truly prepares its sheep for the difficult road ahead. It will be worth it in the end

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Mariology and Christology are tied together in the Catholic and Orthodox Church. A lack of understanding of the role of Mary in our salvation can easily result in a warped view of Christ. Yes God came to Earth, but he came to Earth by being born of a woman.

And here is the major issue in question. mary had a role in our salvation? Did she live Christ's life? Did she set aside her equality with God and come to earth? did she get executed for our sin by hanging naked on the cross? mary had no more a part in our salvation than her parents did. Saying she had a role is like saying the mother of a serial killer had a roll in his crimes, and she should either go to jail with him or get executed along side him because she is just as guilty!

I finf it amazing the people who hated Christ called him the son of mary, yet the people who loved Christ called him the son of David. Do you venerate David as much as you do mary? I would hope not that would be just as sinfull!

Is it not God who knits me together in my mothers womb? Does that somehow make her not my mother?

And this is supposed to answer how the created can be the mother of the creator? Wow, talk about trying to excuse your belief at all costs. A father and mother supplies the egg and seed, Out of it comes a humon body. it is God who gives the "breath of life " (soul) which makes the body a person. Mary supplied 1/2 the seed to form the human body. God supplied the other half and then he himself become th elife breathing soul which entered the body formed by mary!

How can God be incarnate as a man and be born of a woman? Your trying to argue by asserting that the belief that "God can have a mother" is ridiculous. The premise that God can be incarnate as a man and born of a woman is similarly ridiculous to secular ears, but that does not make it untrue.

Yes it is ridiculous. It says that Mary created God. She gave him his deity,

If you would take some time and look at the sheer amount of illogical denial you have to go through to say Mary is not the Mother of God you would understand that yes God does have a mother.

Ok. So what your saying is in eternity past, mary somehow was alive in the heavens. And her and the father gave birth to a son, And this son happened to create the universe and all which is in it. Became the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Did the many miracles of the OT, as well as leading his people into the promised land. Then sometime a little over 2000 years ago, She first took on the form of a woman, She then got pregnant by Gods help and gave birth to her son for a second time, only this time, she bore God in flesh and blood.

Unless you believe this. mary is NOT the mother of God. She is the mother to his humanity only.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not even Creeds based on God's word? You have never said the Apostle's or Nicean Creed in church? That seems odd to me...

We follow Gods word. Not words written by men. Why would we want to say anythign about creeds? We do not even repeat our own constitution as a church, why? they are words of men, not of God,

Oneness theology also believes in Spirit Son and Father in a sense. However, they tend towards believing that Christ merely had God in him when he was incarnate. That seemed like what you were saying but it appears that I was wrong. I apologize if I misrepresented your beliefs

Thanks for the apology

Exodus 20:4: You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Idol refers to an image carved in order to be worshiped. Not any image. That would be ridiculous. That rule would apply to photographs or anything else. An image does not make someone evil.

The word there should be image. It was the pagan religion which built images of people to revere them. And to honor them. God tells us we are not to be like the world, So tell me, Why is the catholic church so like the world? making images of people?

Graven images refer to idols which would indicate worship. Until you can prove worship of Mary and the other saints, you are simply wrong about Catholicism.

If you bow down to an idol, you are worshiping that idol. That is ALL the proof anyone needs. You have seen the many pictures in here of priests and people bowing down to an image of mary, That is worship. It does not matter how they try to explain it away, A rock is a rock no matter how hard you to try to say it is not.

 

[BigFriendlyApologist]

We follow Gods word. Not words written by men. Why would we want to say anythign about creeds? We do not even repeat our own constitution as a church, why? they are words of men, not of God,

I agree that the Creed's are not Scripture but they represent our faith in a nutshell. For example, the Council of Nicea tackled many of the tough issues in the Christian Church including the ongoing battle between Arians and Trinitarians. One might say that it is there work, by the power of the Spirit, that made Christianity what it is today.

The word there should be image. It was the pagan religion which built images of people to revere them. And to honor them. God tells us we are not to be like the world, So tell me, Why is the catholic church so like the world? making images of people?

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that painting pictures or taking photographs was a sin but apparently to you it is. When you say "image" and expect it to apply to every single one, then you both misunderstand the intention and context of the scriptures. The verse of Exodus 20:4 comes in direct connection with God's commandment to have no other gods before him. Many of those around the Israelites served idols, carved images or stone statues that represented gods. It was not merely a statue or picture God is concerned about. It is the intent behind such a statue that would make it sinful.

If you bow down to an idol, you are worshiping that idol. That is ALL the proof anyone needs. You have seen the many pictures in here of priests and people bowing down to an image of mary, That is worship. It does not matter how they try to explain it away, A rock is a rock no matter how hard you to try to say it is not.

Bowing is a symbol of respect. It is not an integral part of worship. People do it before kings, members of government and, in some cultures, even the elderly. Are we worshiping them by bowing to them? I think not. Your logic is simply flawed. You jump from bowing and showing respect to something to worship.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree that the Creed's are not Scripture but they represent our faith in a nutshell. For example, the Council of Nicea tackled many of the tough issues in the Christian Church including the ongoing battle between Arians and Trinitarians. One might say that it is there work, by the power of the Spirit, that made Christianity what it is today.

one could say this. yet the church was established long before these counsels, And instructions given how to handle false teachings by the ones who penned the NT. I would trust the NT before I would words of men, so I would not even bother looking at these so called councels. The jews had their counsels too. And wrote books and laws which was supposed to help them. Yet these same books were misused and caused them to not see Christ. Why should we risk making the same mistake?

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that painting pictures or taking photographs was a sin but apparently to you it is.

A picture is not a graven image, nice try though.

When you say "image" and expect it to apply to every single one, then you both misunderstand the intention and context of the scriptures.

Oh I do. and what makes you such an expert? I have more than 30 years experience studying Gods word. I am not saying this makes me an expert. But I think I have studied this enough to know what God meant.

The verse of Exodus 20:4 comes in direct connection with God's commandment to have no other gods before him. Many of those around the Israelites served idols, carved images or stone statues that represented gods. It was not merely a statue or picture God is concerned about. It is the intent behind such a statue that would make it sinful.

God tells us not to be the world (as he told them) and to be different than the world. The world made carved images (not pictures) of people and Gods. Even the carved images of people were seen as sinful. because it held them up in reverence. and placed the focus on those people, and not God.

An Idol is ANYTHING which takes ones focus off God and places that focus on self, or anything else. Money can be an Idol, did you not know this? So let me guess. You think those people looking at this statue or carved image of mary is focusing on God, and not her? For you see this would make it by its very definition and Idol.

Bowing is a symbol of respect. It is not an integral part of worship. People do it before kings, members of government and, in some cultures, even the elderly. Are we worshiping them by bowing to them? I think not. Your logic is simply flawed. You jump from bowing and showing respect to something to worship.

It is one thing to show a sign of respect to the living. it is quite another to show respect to those who are dead, It is not even them we are revering, it is an image of them. They are in paradise awaiting their resurrection and the return of their savior. They can't see you honoring them, or hear you pray to them. To think they can is to not understand scripture.

To be Honest. I am sure if Mary knew what was going on, she herself would be appalled.

 

[simplyme_bekah]

the one where God leads you to go to after you pray on it good luck

 

[BigFriendlyApologist]

one could say this. yet the church was established long before these counsels, And instructions given how to handle false teachings by the ones who penned the NT. I would trust the NT before I would words of men, so I would not even bother looking at these so called councels. The jews had their counsels too. And wrote books and laws which was supposed to help them. Yet these same books were misused and caused them to not see Christ. Why should we risk making the same mistake?

For the most part I think we are coming to an agreement on the whole council issue. The intentions are completely different then the Jewish councils in that the councils of the early church were trying to establish theology from scripture and set up the Bible itself and not add more rabbinical law.

A picture is not a graven image, nice try though.

Graven: Engrave (an inscription or image) on a surface.

But you understand my point. A statue for example, is something that may be considered to be a graven image (it has been engraved into stone). But that in itself is not sinful. It is the use to which that statue is put that makes it sinful.

God tells us not to be the world (as he told them) and to be different than the world. The world made carved images (not pictures) of people and Gods. Even the carved images of people were seen as sinful. because it held them up in reverence. and placed the focus on those people, and not God.

Even statues of people? You have to be kidding me. So the statue of David made by Michelangelo, a man who believed strongly in God, is somehow wrong? The statue of Abraham Lincoln in D.C. How about Mt. Rushmore? The idea that these are somehow idols because we revere these people and also have statues of them is illogical.

An Idol is ANYTHING which takes ones focus off God and places that focus on self, or anything else. Money can be an Idol, did you not know this? So let me guess. You think those people looking at this statue or carved image of mary is focusing on God, and not her? For you see this would make it by its very definition and Idol.

I agree that you in that an idol is something that takes your focus of worship away from God and towards something else. However, Catholics do not worship Mary. As long as the focus of their worship is still God, I see no problem.

It is one thing to show a sign of respect to the living. it is quite another to show respect to those who are dead, It is not even them we are revering, it is an image of them. They are in paradise awaiting their resurrection and the return of their savior. They can't see you honoring them, or hear you pray to them. To think they can is to not understand scripture.

Where exactly do you see in scripture that the dead cannot hear you? They are with God now. What prevents them from praying for you? What prevents you from asking them to pray for you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

For the most part I think we are coming to an agreement on the whole council issue. The intentions are completely different then the Jewish councils in that the councils of the early church were trying to establish theology from scripture and set up the Bible itself and not add more rabbinical law.

yet we have a church which follows these things and has doctrines not based on scripture, but on these councels. And you don't see a problem with this?

Graven: Engrave (an inscription or image) on a surface.

But you understand my point. A statue for example, is something that may be considered to be a graven image (it has been engraved into stone). But that in itself is not sinful. It is the use to which that statue is put that makes it sinful.





Even statues of people? You have to be kidding me. So the statue of David made by Michelangelo, a man who believed strongly in God, is somehow wrong? The statue of Abraham Lincoln in D.C. How about Mt. Rushmore? The idea that these are somehow idols because we revere these people and also have statues of them is illogical.

be ye separate from the world. Which means do not act like them. It gets no clearer than this

I agree that you in that an idol is something that takes your focus of worship away from God and towards something else. However, Catholics do not worship Mary. As long as the focus of their worship is still God, I see no problem.

sorry. But when they are bowing down and giving what they call honor to a statue they claim is mary, they are worshiping her. and they are not thinking of God or Christ at this time,k they are holding her up. That is called idol worhship.

Where exactly do you see in scripture that the dead cannot hear you? They are with God now. What prevents them from praying for you? What prevents you from asking them to pray for you?

are they omniscient or omnipresent? How can they be with God and at the same time be here on earth and hear your prayers? I mean we see in Daniel that one of the archangels had to be sent from heaven to get to daniel. Even he could not hear or see things happening on earth, but had to be sent. Saying that a dead person can hear us, or see us is saying they have the characteristics of God.

what prevents me from asking them to pray for me?
1. They can't see me or know my situation, so how could they pray for me with knowledge
2. They can't hear me, They are not God
3. What glory would God get from it? they are with God. God does not have to show them his love anymore. Prayer is for my benefit and those who pray for me.
4. I am not a pagan who believes when a "saint" gets to heaven, they become Godlike so we can pray to them, or have them pray for us.

 

[BigFriendlyApologist]

yet we have a church which follows these things and has doctrines not based on scripture, but on these councels. And you don't see a problem with this?

Last time I checked, everything in the Nicean Creed and Apostle's Creed is in Scripture... so no, I don't see a problem with confessing what I believe is true based on the Word.

be ye separate from the world. Which means do not act like them. It gets no clearer than this

So you are saying that Michelangelo, the men who worked on Rushmore and Lincoln are all sinners because they built a statue of respected people?

sorry. But when they are bowing down and giving what they call honor to a statue they claim is mary, they are worshiping her. and they are not thinking of God or Christ at this time,k they are holding her up. That is called idol worhship.

So now you can see into their hearts? You can tell that they are worshiping Mary, rather than just giving respect to a Christian who has passed on to be with God? Last time I checked, that power belonged to God and God alone.

are they omniscient or omnipresent? How can they be with God and at the same time be here on earth and hear your prayers? I mean we see in Daniel that one of the archangels had to be sent from heaven to get to daniel. Even he could not hear or see things happening on earth, but had to be sent. Saying that a dead person can hear us, or see us is saying they have the characteristics of God.

Illogical assumption. Omniscient and omnipresent means present everywhere or all knowing. I am not claiming that those that have gone on before are any of those things. I am merely saying that they may be able to hear us. That in no way gives them omniscience or omnipresence. Perhaps the archangel was sent to Daniel because Daniel was limited in his ability to hear the angel, not vice versa. Also, angels are not the dead. They are servants of God that exist with him. They were never alive on earth.

what prevents me from asking them to pray for me?
1. They can't see me or know my situation, so how could they pray for me with knowledge
2. They can't hear me, They are not God

3. What glory would God get from it? they are with God. God does not have to show them his love anymore. Prayer is for my benefit and those who pray for me.

God no longer has to show them his love?!!! What?!!! You are saying God no longer cares for the Christians that have gone on before us?!!! God is love and there are with him. The idea that they are not loved is simply ridiculous. You let others pray from you and yet you refuse to let those that have gone on before us pray for you?

4. I am not a pagan who believes when a "saint" gets to heaven, they become Godlike so we can pray to them, or have them pray for us.

Catholics don't believe that they become gods either. Even this humble Protestant knows at least that much about Catholic beliefs.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Last time I checked, everything in the Nicean Creed and Apostle's Creed is in Scripture... so no, I don't see a problem with confessing what I believe is true based on the Word.



So you are saying that Michelangelo, the men who worked on Rushmore and Lincoln are all sinners because they built a statue of respected people?



So now you can see into their hearts? You can tell that they are worshiping Mary, rather than just giving respect to a Christian who has passed on to be with God? Last time I checked, that power belonged to God and God alone.



Illogical assumption. Omniscient and omnipresent means present everywhere or all knowing. I am not claiming that those that have gone on before are any of those things. I am merely saying that they may be able to hear us. That in no way gives them omniscience or omnipresence. Perhaps the archangel was sent to Daniel because Daniel was limited in his ability to hear the angel, not vice versa. Also, angels are not the dead. They are servants of God that exist with him. They were never alive on earth.




God no longer has to show them his love?!!! What?!!! You are saying God no longer cares for the Christians that have gone on before us?!!! God is love and there are with him. The idea that they are not loved is simply ridiculous. You let others pray from you and yet you refuse to let those that have gone on before us pray for you?



Catholics don't believe that they become gods either. Even this humble Protestant knows at least that much about Catholic beliefs.

out of all this. all I can say is, one can say they do not believe something. yet in reality (most likely even beyond their scope of knowledge) they do.

I have no doubt in my mind Paul when he was saul, believed in his heart everything he did was for the God of heaven, even killing Christians. I am sure he used the same illogical and UnBiblical excuses as the Catholics do to support their non scriptural doctrines.

all we can do is pray that they (as paul) see the light!

 

[BigFriendlyApologist]

out of all this. all I can say is, one can say they do not believe something. yet in reality (most likely even beyond their scope of knowledge) they do.

I have no doubt in my mind Paul when he was saul, believed in his heart everything he did was for the God of heaven, even killing Christians. I am sure he used the same illogical and UnBiblical excuses as the Catholics do to support their non scriptural doctrines.

all we can do is pray that they (as paul) see the light!

So basically you are saying that Catholics don't mean what they say when they claim not to worship Mary but you know the truth and you aren't going to address any of my counterpoints? Forgive me if I see that as a rather weak response.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So basically you are saying that Catholics don't mean what they say when they claim not to worship Mary but you know the truth and you aren't going to address any of my counterpoints? Forgive me if I see that as a rather weak response.

1. I already addressed your points. Should we keep rehashing the same argument?
2. I see what I have seen since the beginning of time, The same errors, the same excuses and the same reasoning. The only thing different is the names have changed. I am not here to convince you of this., I am just stating my belief, and I have seen nothing which would change my belief.

 

[BigFriendlyApologist]

1. I already addressed your points. Should we keep rehashing the same argument?
2. I see what I have seen since the beginning of time, The same errors, the same excuses and the same reasoning. The only thing different is the names have changed. I am not here to convince you of this., I am just stating my belief, and I have seen nothing which would change my belief.

One final question then as you refuse to accept our Catholic brothers and sisters. In the arguments you mentioned that any statue or similar item, made by man and representing someone that is revered is an idol. Do you believe that the Presidents on Rushmore, Lincoln in DC and David by Michelangelo are all idols? If not, why do you believe that a statue of a revered Christian like Mary is so different?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One final question then as you refuse to accept our Catholic brothers and sisters.

Just to point out here. I refuse to accept them as my brother not because of these faulty doctrines, But because of their gospel. They are trying to earn their way to heaven, and not recieving a gift from God in faith. This mary stuff has no bearing on ones salvation. Just happened to be what we are discussing.

In the arguments you mentioned that any statue or similar item, made by man and representing someone that is revered is an idol. Do you believe that the Presidents on Rushmore, Lincoln in DC and David by Michelangelo are all idols? If not, why do you believe that a statue of a revered Christian like Mary is so different?

God said to be separate. That means separate, If the world wants to make statues, I am not going to stop them. But you will not see me giving reverence to a dead man who may or may not even be in heaven.

 

[BigFriendlyApologist]

God said to be separate. That means separate, If the world wants to make statues, I am not going to stop them. But you will not see me giving reverence to a dead man who may or may not even be in heaven.

You haven't answered my question. All I need is a yes or no answer on the first part.
Part 1: In the arguments you mentioned that any statue or similar item, made by man and representing someone that is revered is an idol. Do you believe that the Presidents on Rushmore, Lincoln in DC and David by Michelangelo or any statue ever created by man are all idols?

If you say no to part one, then please add a little explanation on part two.
Part 2: If not, why do you believe that a statue of a revered Christian like Mary is so different?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You haven't answered my question. All I need is a yes or no answer on the first part.
Part 1: In the arguments you mentioned that any statue or similar item, made by man and representing someone that is revered is an idol. Do you believe that the Presidents on Rushmore, Lincoln in DC and David by Michelangelo or any statue ever created by man are all idols?

If you say no to part one, then please add a little explanation on part two.
Part 2: If not, why do you believe that a statue of a revered Christian like Mary is so different?

I have not answered?

God said to be separate. That means separate, If the world wants to make statues, I am not going to stop them. But you will not see me giving reverence to a dead man who may or may not even be in heaven.

That is more than an answer.If the world wants to make a statue, let them. But I will not revere, it is against God, and against his commands. It does not matter if it is a president or mary, A sin is a sin is a sin.

 

[BigFriendlyApologist]

I have not answered?

God said to be separate. That means separate, If the world wants to make statues, I am not going to stop them. But you will not see me giving reverence to a dead man who may or may not even be in heaven.

That is more than an answer.If the world wants to make a statue, let them. But I will not revere, it is against God, and against his commands. It does not matter if it is a president or mary, A sin is a sin is a sin.

Ok... just wanted to clear up that you view art of famous people as idols. Got it...