What does, “But the one who endures to the end will be saved” mean?
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I must have just glanced past this question without ever answering before, sorry about the late answer. I honestly don't know if I understand your question. I kind of need to know what "absolute judgement" is when you used it, but if you mean the wrath of God that abides over every single one of us because of Adam and original sin, the very wrath poured out in full on Jesus as He hung on that cross, then I don't believe the way you asked the question reflects a "born again" perspective. Please don't be offended and let me explain what I mean.
You're asking "How do you consolidate that absolute judgement with those who left the church, but later returned and remained faithful?", in this scenario if I'm understanding it is, if a person comes and "joins the church", then leaves to return to sin only to end up back with Jesus until the end. If that right then honestly from a spiritual perspective don't understand how this could even be confusing, but I believe this could be one of two different possibilities.
First one is he was not truly born again the first time. This is my testimony and I share this all the time. I went up front when the pastor called, repeated the prayer, and was dunked under water in front of everyone for good measure, and was not saved. God used this for a reason of course, as I would put forth in the hypothetical, he wasn't saved at first, returned like a dog to the vomit to his sin, God used that as part of his will and glory to teach him the difference and then later draws him in, in truth, and resurrects his spirit reconciling it back to His, as we were created to be, making him whole in a way impossible by the flesh.
So really the guy thinks he was saved at first, but wasn't. That being part of Gods plan to help teach and impart wisdom he can now share to draw others in. It's ALL His plan, I think we lose the meaning of what sovereign actually means a lot.
The second is very much the same kind of story only, the person is born again in truth. Praise Jesus. Does this make us 100% perfect then and there? No it is just the beginning of sanctification. So if this person returns to the vomit, he does so with our Lord in him now, Gods Spirit guiding him, convicting him when he's wrong and leading him back.
I honestly feel this kind of thinking you're putting forth in this question (this question alone, not by any mean speaking about you in general, so please don't take it like that) is honestly from a perspective of pop Christianity that says that, "no matter what if you repeat these words you are saved and no one can tell you different. Not only that I want you to know you're still going to sin. All of us do. Just look at Paul in Romans talking about what a wretched man he is."
While there is not much in this statement that is technically wrong, aside from the lie that repeating words will save you, it's just the gospel and resulting power of God in our lives, being framed the way they are here, I believe (because it happen to me first hand), creates false converts who don't believe in judging anyone for anything, at anytime, and it's created a safe spot to keep our sins in, never going out to talk about Him, never recognizing "my way" for the path straight to death that it is, and never repenting and turning from "my way" to Him and the gift of Jesus perfectness washing you clean in the eyes of the Father forever. Being born again is the literal resurrection of our dead spirit opening our eyes to the truth of the spirit in reality, testifying of the Father and Son, but not only that but you now are plugged into God, by His Spirit, for the first time, now able to live life in a way that can please our Father. The closest I can explain my rebirth to others is that it was as radical and insanely mind blowing as waking up out of the Matrix would be in real life. It is truly that radically real. We now desire this and it's only by His power and ALL works for His glory, even when, and especially when we walk away proud but come back humbly on our knees. Anyway that my thoughts on the topic, thank for the question and have a great day.
So not bad for a 1 sentence question.
You're asking "How do you consolidate that absolute judgement with those who left the church, but later returned and remained faithful?", in this scenario if I'm understanding it is, if a person comes and "joins the church", then leaves to return to sin only to end up back with Jesus until the end. If that right then honestly from a spiritual perspective don't understand how this could even be confusing, but I believe this could be one of two different possibilities.
First one is he was not truly born again the first time. This is my testimony and I share this all the time. I went up front when the pastor called, repeated the prayer, and was dunked under water in front of everyone for good measure, and was not saved. God used this for a reason of course, as I would put forth in the hypothetical, he wasn't saved at first, returned like a dog to the vomit to his sin, God used that as part of his will and glory to teach him the difference and then later draws him in, in truth, and resurrects his spirit reconciling it back to His, as we were created to be, making him whole in a way impossible by the flesh.
So really the guy thinks he was saved at first, but wasn't. That being part of Gods plan to help teach and impart wisdom he can now share to draw others in. It's ALL His plan, I think we lose the meaning of what sovereign actually means a lot.
The second is very much the same kind of story only, the person is born again in truth. Praise Jesus. Does this make us 100% perfect then and there? No it is just the beginning of sanctification. So if this person returns to the vomit, he does so with our Lord in him now, Gods Spirit guiding him, convicting him when he's wrong and leading him back.
I honestly feel this kind of thinking you're putting forth in this question (this question alone, not by any mean speaking about you in general, so please don't take it like that) is honestly from a perspective of pop Christianity that says that, "no matter what if you repeat these words you are saved and no one can tell you different. Not only that I want you to know you're still going to sin. All of us do. Just look at Paul in Romans talking about what a wretched man he is."
While there is not much in this statement that is technically wrong, aside from the lie that repeating words will save you, it's just the gospel and resulting power of God in our lives, being framed the way they are here, I believe (because it happen to me first hand), creates false converts who don't believe in judging anyone for anything, at anytime, and it's created a safe spot to keep our sins in, never going out to talk about Him, never recognizing "my way" for the path straight to death that it is, and never repenting and turning from "my way" to Him and the gift of Jesus perfectness washing you clean in the eyes of the Father forever. Being born again is the literal resurrection of our dead spirit opening our eyes to the truth of the spirit in reality, testifying of the Father and Son, but not only that but you now are plugged into God, by His Spirit, for the first time, now able to live life in a way that can please our Father. The closest I can explain my rebirth to others is that it was as radical and insanely mind blowing as waking up out of the Matrix would be in real life. It is truly that radically real. We now desire this and it's only by His power and ALL works for His glory, even when, and especially when we walk away proud but come back humbly on our knees. Anyway that my thoughts on the topic, thank for the question and have a great day.
So not bad for a 1 sentence question.
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I am praying for you, @Gardenias.
Speak for yourself.
As believers in Christ, the scripture is clear: we do not have to sin (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17).
We do not have to sin.
In the NLT,
Rom 8:12, Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.
Rom 8:13, For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live.
Rom 8:14, For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.
It is therefore possible to go without sinning for the rest of one's life.
As it is written,
1Jo 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
You may take this latter verse (3:9) as hyperbole if you wish.
As exaggeration to make a point.
What point? That if anyone is genuinely born again of the Holy Spirit, their life will change from being directed toward sin to being directed towards holiness. As it is written,
Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
And concerning 3:6, it is wise to compare to 1 John 2:17,
1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Furthermore, it should be clear in the following verses that the Lord is able to keep us from falling back into sinful behaviour.
Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
2Pe 1:10, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
1Jo 2:10, He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
As believers in Christ, the scripture is clear: we do not have to sin (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17).
We do not have to sin.
In the NLT,
Rom 8:12, Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.
Rom 8:13, For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live.
Rom 8:14, For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.
It is therefore possible to go without sinning for the rest of one's life.
As it is written,
1Jo 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
You may take this latter verse (3:9) as hyperbole if you wish.
As exaggeration to make a point.
What point? That if anyone is genuinely born again of the Holy Spirit, their life will change from being directed toward sin to being directed towards holiness. As it is written,
Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
And concerning 3:6, it is wise to compare to 1 John 2:17,
1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Furthermore, it should be clear in the following verses that the Lord is able to keep us from falling back into sinful behaviour.
Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
2Pe 1:10, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
1Jo 2:10, He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
Wow, I have NO idea what the heck you are trying to correct or agree with me on here in this wall of jumbled mess you wrote about the two sentences I was condemning for them being taught in a certain way that is deceptive and out of context, in the watered down, seeker sensitive, never say anything that might offend anyone because Jesus is ONLY love, and mentioning or pointing to any kind of coming judgement or suggesting that you may want to take a look at these things and consider them is a HUGE NO NO. To be honest it seems like you are trying to "teach me" the very point I was making, or maybe just agreeing with me, but the way you wrote it out makes my eyes want to throw up and hide under the covers, and is anything but clear. Thanks....I guess, but regardless have a good day for sure.
That's fine, brother.
If anyone would have been deceived by your statement that "everybody sins" and "you are going to sin in the future whether you like it or not", I believe that they will not see my post as being in any way garbled; and will be able, because of my post, to understand that your statements were flat out lies from the pit.
If anyone would have been deceived by your statement that "everybody sins" and "you are going to sin in the future whether you like it or not", I believe that they will not see my post as being in any way garbled; and will be able, because of my post, to understand that your statements were flat out lies from the pit.
One said it like this those who spend all their time arguing about the times and the seasons are not the ones who will triumph in the end. Only those who maintain a faithful spirit and a positive witness in the midst of the corruption of this age will be saved in the end. Now He was talking to the 12 and reading above and below I don't see this as salvation. He didn't say "you" to the 12 He said "he" that endures to the end. Endures what? Does seem some are saying "he" means a believer in Christ? So Christ which has not died for the world yet and there were no Christians asking Him anything. When Christ said "saved" you think their first thought was "salvation"? Even the wisest of the Jews didn't understand "born again".
Again read above...yeah he not you he that makes it, makes it through that will be saved. To change what Christ said to mean something He never said is not wise. Then we get off rails and pre mid post. Again we well some add to what is not written. He said when He was here not man knows only the Father, then to them that asked are you going to rule now He said of those times and seasons only the Father knows " And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.". Now is where things are added.. since Christ is no longer on earth and returned to what He always was.. now He can know all. Yes I guess yet that is something thats nothing more then speculation. Now for me since Christ can not lie and talking about end times Christs words where were spoken aka GOD and will not change. He said or the Father through Him "Father has put in His own authority".
And to this very day Christ, God, Holy Spirit have never once told anyone about pre mid or post. Me I would rather have hope, faith in the now not in a day I might never see since I was not promised it in His word. So I believe today is when He comes for His bride. I am ready now. My eyes are always on Him.. my mind is always on Him. I am always watching how I think say live... for Him. I LOVE THAT!
Again read above...yeah he not you he that makes it, makes it through that will be saved. To change what Christ said to mean something He never said is not wise. Then we get off rails and pre mid post. Again we well some add to what is not written. He said when He was here not man knows only the Father, then to them that asked are you going to rule now He said of those times and seasons only the Father knows " And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.". Now is where things are added.. since Christ is no longer on earth and returned to what He always was.. now He can know all. Yes I guess yet that is something thats nothing more then speculation. Now for me since Christ can not lie and talking about end times Christs words where were spoken aka GOD and will not change. He said or the Father through Him "Father has put in His own authority".
And to this very day Christ, God, Holy Spirit have never once told anyone about pre mid or post. Me I would rather have hope, faith in the now not in a day I might never see since I was not promised it in His word. So I believe today is when He comes for His bride. I am ready now. My eyes are always on Him.. my mind is always on Him. I am always watching how I think say live... for Him. I LOVE THAT!
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Post 277:
justbyfaith said:
Galatians 3:24 (kjv) clearly tells us that the law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ; Romans 3:20 (kjv) clearly tells us that God does this by showing man that he is a sinner in need of the Saviour / salvation, through the law. And Psalms 19:7 (kjv) clearly tells us that the law has the power to convert the soul.
I think that your problem might be that you are reading an alternate translation to the kjv.
I believe that in doing so, you are heaping to yourself a teacher to tell you what your itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3).
Galatians 3:11 clearly tells us that no one will be justified in the sight of God through the keeping of the law; it does not exclude the possibility of the law converting the soul (Psalms 19:7 (kjv) by showing man that he is a sinner (Romans 3:20 (kjv)) and thus leading him to Christ as a schoolmaster.
I would also suggest that you read Hebrews 3:7-8, 3:15, and 4:7 as what those verses address also may be a part of your problem.
Another part of your problem might be what is addressed in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; as you appear to be blind to the truth that these verses teach us about.
Click to expand...
My reply to you:What an interesting perspective.
May God grant you a long and happily blessed life.
In Jesus name, amen.
QUOTE="justbyfaith, post: 4671695, member: 310696"]Thank you.
And may the Lord also do for you the same; and also receive you as a son.
(Psalms 62:4).[/QUOTE]
Well, since you put me on ignore and refused to answer my question let me just say: The reason I asked if you intended to post that passage from Psalms after your reply to my blessing post, as I also afforded LI, is because in adding the Psalm verse to your remarks, you're indicating the verse identifies you and your motives behind your reply.
I consider that providence stepping in and allowing us to learn the truth as to your dark intentions here and in your own words.
God is good all the time.
justbyfaith said:
Galatians 3:24 (kjv) clearly tells us that the law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ; Romans 3:20 (kjv) clearly tells us that God does this by showing man that he is a sinner in need of the Saviour / salvation, through the law. And Psalms 19:7 (kjv) clearly tells us that the law has the power to convert the soul.
I think that your problem might be that you are reading an alternate translation to the kjv.
I believe that in doing so, you are heaping to yourself a teacher to tell you what your itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3).
Galatians 3:11 clearly tells us that no one will be justified in the sight of God through the keeping of the law; it does not exclude the possibility of the law converting the soul (Psalms 19:7 (kjv) by showing man that he is a sinner (Romans 3:20 (kjv)) and thus leading him to Christ as a schoolmaster.
I would also suggest that you read Hebrews 3:7-8, 3:15, and 4:7 as what those verses address also may be a part of your problem.
Another part of your problem might be what is addressed in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; as you appear to be blind to the truth that these verses teach us about.
Click to expand...
My reply to you:What an interesting perspective.
May God grant you a long and happily blessed life.
In Jesus name, amen.
QUOTE="justbyfaith, post: 4671695, member: 310696"]Thank you.
And may the Lord also do for you the same; and also receive you as a son.
(Psalms 62:4).[/QUOTE]
Well, since you put me on ignore and refused to answer my question let me just say: The reason I asked if you intended to post that passage from Psalms after your reply to my blessing post, as I also afforded LI, is because in adding the Psalm verse to your remarks, you're indicating the verse identifies you and your motives behind your reply.
I consider that providence stepping in and allowing us to learn the truth as to your dark intentions here and in your own words.
God is good all the time.
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Be careful with those good wishes sent to that one. If history repeats, he won't accept them. But will post a scripture excerpt intending to curse you back.
That happened with his intention toward me earlier. God intervened however and had him post a passage that actually exposed his dark purpose and intent here.
Another thing. Posting styles.
What you read as garbled mess in his remarks is the posting style typical of a different name here. Link.
That happened with his intention toward me earlier. God intervened however and had him post a passage that actually exposed his dark purpose and intent here.
Another thing. Posting styles.
What you read as garbled mess in his remarks is the posting style typical of a different name here. Link.
Told you I'd disagree with you.
I am NOT a works salvationist!
Read some of my other post and you will see.
As a matter of fact I believe I address this in this thread.
Salvation is a FREE GIFT that cannot be earned,Jesus paid the purchase price for us at the cross!
However I DO NOT believe we sit on our laurels and do NOTHING.
Scriptures teach that God works HIS works through us.
Not as pay back for a debt BC the sin debt we owed is already paid for.
Remember the " GREAT COMMOSSION"?
We are SERVANTS of our Lord Jesus Christ and as Jesus said @ 12 we need to be about our Father's business!
I do have a family that is unsaved so don't waste praying for me but hold them up in prayer under Gardenias,he knows me!
Yes, that is a part of my motives. Any time I ask the Lord to receive someone as a son I also have Hebrews 12:6 in mind.
Of course it is more of a blessing for someone to be received as a son and be chastened in this life than for someone to receive your blessing: that they may live long and prosper with the implication that that is the best they are going to get because they are going to hell afterwards.
And, the fact that you ascribed those motives to me means that you had the same motivation when you gave your "blessing". For, you have three fingers pointing back at you (Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:41-42).
Of course it is more of a blessing for someone to be received as a son and be chastened in this life than for someone to receive your blessing: that they may live long and prosper with the implication that that is the best they are going to get because they are going to hell afterwards.
And, the fact that you ascribed those motives to me means that you had the same motivation when you gave your "blessing". For, you have three fingers pointing back at you (Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:41-42).
not at all. unless we know another's heart [for sure] or are empathic (at least some) we may not realize that we are only 'guessing' ... if/when we judge/ (think we) discern another's intent... esp. when not in person... this seems to be a difficult task to take on... have you heard of p r o j e c t I o n ?
Most definitely. And I am saying that he has apparently projected his sin onto me, in saying that I have dark motives.
I do not deny that I had Hebrews 12:6 in mind when I pronounced the blessing on him that the Lord receive him as a son.
But I will leave it up to him to respond, as to whether or not he intended that I be blessed on the earth but be cursed in eternity.
When I give a scripture (such as Psalms 62:4), I consider that the scripture in question may or may not apply.
His reaction told me that it did apply; but I could be wrong in my assessment.
For instead of simply saying that the scripture in question did not apply to him, he protested that it does apply to me;
In judging me he exposed himself as being guilty.
For that is what Matthew 7:1-5 tells us; and that is what Luke 6:41-42 tells us; that when a person judges someone else, it is because they are guilty of the same thing.
And, I do not deny that I am guilty of "cursing inwardly" in the blessing that I have pronounced; for I considered that he had cursed me first.
At least the blessing and curse that I pronounced would amount to eternal blessing though a temporal cursing; while it seemed to me that his blessing was temporal and his cursing eternal.
But, perhaps I misread what he was saying and he only intended a blessing that is both temporal and eternal. He can make that clear by pronouncing the eternal blessing at some point in the future; by making it clear that he intended an eternal blessing.
But if he will not, then it is evidence that there was no misunderstanding.
Therefore I will concede that it was a misunderstanding if he will pronounce an eternal blessing as I did for him.
For I consider that I may indeed have misunderstood him.
Nevertheless, I believe also that Psalms 62:4 is the word of the Lord and that as such it is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
I do not deny that I had Hebrews 12:6 in mind when I pronounced the blessing on him that the Lord receive him as a son.
But I will leave it up to him to respond, as to whether or not he intended that I be blessed on the earth but be cursed in eternity.
When I give a scripture (such as Psalms 62:4), I consider that the scripture in question may or may not apply.
His reaction told me that it did apply; but I could be wrong in my assessment.
For instead of simply saying that the scripture in question did not apply to him, he protested that it does apply to me;
In judging me he exposed himself as being guilty.
For that is what Matthew 7:1-5 tells us; and that is what Luke 6:41-42 tells us; that when a person judges someone else, it is because they are guilty of the same thing.
And, I do not deny that I am guilty of "cursing inwardly" in the blessing that I have pronounced; for I considered that he had cursed me first.
At least the blessing and curse that I pronounced would amount to eternal blessing though a temporal cursing; while it seemed to me that his blessing was temporal and his cursing eternal.
But, perhaps I misread what he was saying and he only intended a blessing that is both temporal and eternal. He can make that clear by pronouncing the eternal blessing at some point in the future; by making it clear that he intended an eternal blessing.
But if he will not, then it is evidence that there was no misunderstanding.
Therefore I will concede that it was a misunderstanding if he will pronounce an eternal blessing as I did for him.
For I consider that I may indeed have misunderstood him.
Nevertheless, I believe also that Psalms 62:4 is the word of the Lord and that as such it is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
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See you are blind and have taken my comment out of context. Somehow you think I was saying it's good to sin. My whole comment was
"I honestly feel this kind of thinking you're putting forth in this question (this question alone, not by any mean speaking about you in general, so please don't take it like that) is honestly from a perspective of pop Christianity that says that, "no matter what if you repeat these words you are saved and no one can tell you different. Not only that I want you to know you're still going to sin. All of us do. Just look at Paul in Romans talking about what a wretched man he is."
See how I was using this as a quote from a hypothetical false teacher from quote "POP Christianity"? See how you're dead wrong and should apologize for coming at me like that on the false premise of your own foolish misunderstanding? See that?
Okay lets clear this up, I was condemning this teaching and went on to say it creates false converts, and was saying that as someone it had deceived before. You think you are correcting me when I was making the same point? Can you see how ridiculous you look?
Honestly you misunderstood me and are now just arguing to argue. It's like you refuse to listen because you think you've found a mistake and you're starving to teach someone. It's kind of sad, and why CC is laughed at as a place you go to be attacked. We should maybe slow our roles a bit so we're not stuck looking foolish like you are here, having missed a point and went our of your way to correct me on something we agree on and now still have not accepted correction with humility, and and least recognize you misunderstood what I was saying, because the way you are correcting me only agrees with my exact point that Romans 8 can be very deceptive in the mouth of a wolf.
If nothing else please recognize that I am 100% against this verse being used to justify sin in a believers life as it is FAR too often. Thanks and hope you're having a good day.