What does the Law REALLY say?

royalscot · Oct 2, 2014

you have to ask first, was he killed ie yes we know he fortold this would happen
Jesus Foretells His Death
21 And he strictly charged and commanded them to tell this to no one,22 saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised."Luke 9

so who killed him? (be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes) the jewish law . (strange)

resurection.
on the third day be raised
who raised him

no wonder , some cant see, the new covenant, if the cant see the resurection.

The Ascension
6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

jesus is back in heaven, when the new covenant started, then came penrecost.

when did he tell any believer, to stop at the cross.
4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me;5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."Acts 1: The Promise of the Holy Spirit

5 And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven16 and said, "By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.Genesis 22

29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.Galatians 3

following in fath. etc Romans 8: Life in the Spirit
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.Romans

welcome to the new covenant.

royalscot · Oct 2, 2014

(jesus olny talked to the crowd, with parable, so you would have to wait about 1500 years for the bible to go to print, to read this.) ie modern day churches and sects etc. or wait like us for 2000 years to read it our selfs. etc
to read this for your selfs

21 And he strictly charged and commanded them to tell this to no one,22 saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised."Luke 9

Elin · Oct 2, 2014

john832 said:

The women, children and elderly were not in the military camp.

That's not the Deut passage, which refers to going to war and a military camp.

Num was written 40 years earlier, before they went out under Joshua to take the land,
and it is speaking of Israel's 40-year encampment in the dessert,
not of going out to take the land in Deut.

I'm thinkin' the pot is calling the kettle black in its attempt without knowledge to defend its doctrine.

Elin · Oct 2, 2014

john832 said:

The NT is likewise not based on following the Mosaic ceremonial laws.

Dan_473 · Oct 2, 2014

KohenMatt said:

I think the spirit would say not to keep the law... so, again, would the spirit tell a person not to keep those rules?

the priests and Jesus could wash themselves and their clothes... in an observant community, I think the menstruating women tend to stay home with the other women, so as to avoid these issues...

"No, Jesus did not live in a strictly observant society. "... I don't think I said strictly, but that's a good point... how strictly observant of the law was Jesus?

I don't think Torah is designed to help reach the lost... more about building a separate community... a peculiar people, that doesn't mix well with other groups...

the law says divorce OK, Jesus says no... I think that's an alteration, but I'm happy calling it a very interesting interpretation...

Dan_473 · Oct 2, 2014

john832 said:

well, when I read the surrounding verses it looked a lot to me like it was talking about army stuff... as I said, if we go with the idea that it's for everyone, that much harder... so, how serious is one about keeping that rule?

john832 · Oct 2, 2014

Dan_473 said:

Divorce was the alteration...

Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

john832 · Oct 2, 2014

Dan_473 said:

Take a concordance (E-Sword if you have it) and look up camp in the Pentateuch and see how the word camp is used. Then decide if it was a military encampment or not. Don't base it on one passage...

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Dan_473 · Oct 2, 2014

john832 said:

yes! and when I talked about a similar idea before, and asked about why not move to an observant community, or start one, the answer I got was that observant communities of believers tend to be spiritually unhealthy... looks like there was a community like that in acts 21, but none today... this leads me to believe that the spirit isn't supporting believers being zealous for the law today...

Elin · Oct 2, 2014

john832 said:

And a thorough examination thereof will show that women, children and elderly did not go up against the enemy in Dt 23:9 and were not part of the camp that did, and

that the camp referred to 40 years earlier in Num was not a military camp because they were living in the dessert under the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, would continue to do so for another 40 years before they moved out to take the promised land.

Your false theology has no legs.

psychomom · Oct 2, 2014

Dan_473 said:

hey, Dan.

didn't the Lord Jesus have to be exactingly strict in His Keeping of the Law?

every 'jot and tittle'?

KohenMatt · Oct 2, 2014

Dan_473 said:

The Spirit would tell you to worship in spirit AND in truth. Physical obedience AND the Holy Spirit.
We're not talking about not keeping the rules. We're talking about your opinion of the method needed to keep it.

Dan_473 said:

And in today's community, women have barriers to keep that from happening.

Dan_473 said:

Jesus was completely obedient to the Law as it was set forth by God. He was not completely obedient to it as the Pharisees saw fit. He had to be completely obedient because he was the perfect and pure sacrifice. He couldn't be that sacrifice if He had sinned against God.

Dan_473 said:

Yes and no. The primary purpose of the Law was to teach Israel how to live in the midst of a perfect and pure God. And yes, it would set them apart from the other nations, but even that was meant to arouse them to fear of God and a desire to serve Him instead of their gods. God always made a way and a preparation for the "alien" to come into Israel's society.

Dan_473 said:

If that's the case, a large percentage of Christians are disobeying God. Moses says if you divorce, here's how to do it. Jesus says you shouldn't even get to that point. But even if you do, it should be for certain reasons (Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:15)

You seem like someone who is legitimately interested in how to make sense of these things instead of staunchly defending your perspective, and I definitely appreciate that. But with all due respect, don't get so caught up on EXACTLY how you think these things should be kept.

That's exactly what the Pharisees did.

KohenMatt · Oct 2, 2014

psychomom said:

Exactly. Or else He wouldn't have been a perfect sacrifice on our behalf.

JaumeJ · Oct 3, 2014

It cannot be mentioned often enough about our Lord, Jesus Christ. He walked this, His Creatiion, without blemish, yet He teaches you have heard it saidi and eye for an eye, but He teaches against this in favor of humility and mercy, saying nay, I tell you if you are strick on the cheek, offer the other cheek. He also mediated between the woman caught in adultery and the hypocrites wanting her stoned to death according to the law.

Did our Lord break the law in either of these instances? I say not at all, but this is why all must learn from Him just how the law is yet in effect. It is, but as I have always stressted, Jesus teahces us plainly which laws may be replaced by His teaching. He is clear on this, but doctrines of man have muddled this understanding for centuries. Pleas do not use the grace of the Blood of the Lamb of God as an excuse to be disobedient, or to teach against the wisdom of His law.

john832 · Oct 3, 2014

Dan_473 said:

yes! and when I talked about a similar idea before, and asked about why not move to an observant community, or start one, the answer I got was that observant communities of believers tend to be spiritually unhealthy... looks like there was a community like that in acts 21, but none today... this leads me to believe that the spirit isn't supporting believers being zealous for the law today...

And who told you this?

royalscot · Oct 3, 2014

JaumeJ said:

who put the law of the land in place ware you stay/live ,ie in the country you were born in. live in etc
how the law is yet in effect.
your still going to die.
ask war,
was roman the head of the law of the land or the jewish law given to moses at the time of jesus. ie so in simple terms would you have to be jewish for this law(given to moses) and because of the requirments this law, had on the jewish people, and that would need a temple of stone. etc old covenant.

how can both, partys connect to an eternal plan. in favor of humility and mercy,
would that be , by holy spirit

so it is clear that there is a need for a seperation ,because of law of the land, (do i need to tell you why) etc

that question would led to ask, how, and how can, they reconnect to a god .all of them ie both partys, jew and gentiles. etc

the new covenant. (whos plan, did this covenants come from. etc )

in favour of god s humility and mercy,

royalscot · Oct 3, 2014

john832 said:

They Had Everything in Common
32 Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common.33 And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.34 There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold35 and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.36 Thus Joseph, who was also called by the apostles Barnabas (which means son of encouragement), a Levite, a native of Cyprus,37 sold a field that belonged to him and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.Acts 4

Acts 5: Ananias and Sapphira
1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,2 and with his wife's knowledge he kept back for himself some of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles' feet.3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it.6 The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
7 After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.8 And Peter said to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much." And she said, "Yes, for so much."9 But Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."10 Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.11 And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things. Acts 5: Ananias and Sapphira

Elin · Oct 3, 2014

JaumeJ said:

Yes, an example of Jesus setting aside the Mosiac law of retaliation
and as Lawgiver, giving a new law of non-retaliation.

Yes, the law did not require her stoning because she was not a betrothed virgin,
but they sought to illegally trap him, and he turned the tables on them exposing their own sin.

Actually, in one instance, as Lawgiver, he set aside the law of retaliation, and
in the other instance he brought the law to bear on the sin of the accusers' who
would stone her illegally.

Yes, as Lawgiver, in the new covenant he has
set aside the Mosaic law (Heb 7:18-19),
replacing it with his law (Mt 22:37-39),
which fulfills the Law and the Prophets (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10),
through the indwelling Holy Spirit
who writes his new covenant law on our minds and hearts (Jer 31:31),
giving us to know what is loving and what is not loving,
without a written code of myriad regulations to do so.

Yes, it cannot be mentioned often enough about our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Alligator · Oct 3, 2014

Elin said:

i am surprised at the number of people I talk to who do not understand that Christ fulfilled the Old Law, nailing it to the cross. Without an understanding of the two covenants, including when one ended and the other began, it becomes difficult to understand many of the concepts and truths taught by Christ.

Elin · Oct 3, 2014

Alligator said:

i am surprised at the number of people I talk to who do not understand that Christ fulfilled the Old Law, nailing it to the cross.
Without an understanding of the two covenants, including when one ended and the other began,
it becomes difficult to understand many of the concepts and truths taught by Christ.

You got that right!

What does the Law REALLY say?

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