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C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#21
The second is entirely reliant on the first, which is the love of God, who is truth, so the love of thy neighbour is dependent on the love of God, if your truth is not their truth then no love can exist as love can only exist where there is truth, love can only exist between two people, you will not find this in our post modern relativistic dictionaries where 'love' has come to be defined as an individual's desire for something, see love and lust the devil has now blurred into one. The truth is love can only exist in the truth of attatchment between two, see love is not someone's own desire to be respectful to others, that is not love, that's just good manners, people get 'charity' and 'love' confused as well.

Always remember that it is the human heart that is above all wicked, love does not exist in our human hearts alone, love exists on the truth of the attachment of one to another, it is selfless you understand
To that I would add as Jesus said 'The kingdom of God is among you', the devil of course changed this in the KJV to the false 'The kingdom of God is inside you', Jesus was right just like the kingdom, love exists among you.
 

Graybeard

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2009
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#22
The second is entirely reliant on the first, which is the love of God, who is truth, so the love of thy neighbour is dependent on the love of God, if your truth is not their truth then no love can exist as love can only exist where there is truth, love can only exist between two people, you will not find this in our post modern relativistic dictionaries where 'love' has come to be defined as an individual's desire for something, see love and lust the devil has now blurred into one. The truth is love can only exist in the truth of attatchment between two, see love is not someone's own desire to be respectful to others, that is not love, that's just good manners, people get 'charity' and 'love' confused as well.

Always remember that it is the human heart that is above all wicked, love does not exist in our human hearts alone, love exists on the truth of the attachment of one to another, it is selfless you understand
I do not understand when you say "if your truth is not their truth then no love can exist......... love can only exist between two people"

If that is the case then how is it that God first loved us, even if we don't love Him back does that mean that He cannot love us?
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#23
There are more hypocrites on their way to Hell within ''christianity'' than true Christian. If you do not realize that it is probably because you too run with the hypocrites with in your beloeved mainstream.
Are you the standard of "true christianity"?
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#24
I do not understand when you say "if your truth is not their truth then no love can exist......... love can only exist between two people"

If that is the case then how is it that God first loved us, even if we don't love Him back does that mean that He cannot love us?
God is not a human person, everything comes from God first. I said that the second is entirely reliant on the first, and the first is reliant on God's love of us - first.
 
W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#26
Wwe're having this as a subject(without the christianity- part) at school nowdays

- Why are people so though and uhm, well, at times aggressive on the internet. It seems people are more willing to talk back in a offensive manner online than in real life. I am sure most of the discussions in here that has almost escalated to fights would not have gotten this heated if the participants actually met and talked. - Bt the internet seems to have no laws and no moral, so everyone feels free to do and say anything.

(my opinion...)
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#27
Wwe're having this as a subject(without the christianity- part) at school nowdays

- Why are people so though and uhm, well, at times aggressive on the internet. It seems people are more willing to talk back in a offensive manner online than in real life. I am sure most of the discussions in here that has almost escalated to fights would not have gotten this heated if the participants actually met and talked. - Bt the internet seems to have no laws and no moral, so everyone feels free to do and say anything.

(my opinion...)
Very good observation.
 
A

Aliciaforjesus

Guest
#28
John 17:20-23

My pryaers is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, THAT ALL OF THEM MAY BE ONE, Father, JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they MAY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE: I in them and you in me. MAY THEY BE BROUGHT TO COMPLETE UNITY to let the world know that you sent me and loved them even as you have loved me.

With all the bickering, and stone-casting, and cries of heresy, lies, and deception I read on here, I wonder what these verses mean to you all. Jesus wants us to be a united in Him. He wants us to stand together and love one another like God is in Jesus and Jesus is in us so that we can show the world. How are we showing the world that we are united in Christ when all we do is bicker and fight and try to prove each other wrong instead of uplift, guide, and teach? How often have you corrected someone, not out of concern for their eternal soul, or out of love for them, or out of glory to God, but simply because you think they are wrong and you want them to believe what you believe?

How are we, as Christians, going to do this? We've got Catholics standing here, Baptists over there, Pentecostals on that side, Presbyterians over there. What does the world see? They see a bunch of people who all have the same instructions, the same message, the same job in this world and yet are divided over some of the silliest things imaginable. All the bickering over whether God is one being or three, or if infants should be baptized, or if sabbath is a sunday or a saturday, we sound like a bunch of pharisee's and are completely forgetting what God wanted us to do. He wants us to love one another as Christ loved us, and to stand united as God is united with Jesus.

That's what that means to me, I'm very interested to see what others have to say.

(and yes, my verses were taken out of the horribly wicked NIV given to my husband by a priest on our wedding day)

As I was reading this I thought of 1Tim. 6:3-5
If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which comes envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.

1Cor talks about is Christ divided, No!

We are His, who love!
Love is what brings us together as one!

 
Mar 11, 2009
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#29
John 17:20-23

My prayers is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, THAT ALL OF THEM MAY BE ONE, Father, JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they MAY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE: I in them and you in me. MAY THEY BE BROUGHT TO COMPLETE UNITY to let the world know that you sent me and loved them even as you have loved me.

With all the bickering, and stone-casting, and cries of heresy, lies, and deception I read on here, I wonder what these verses mean to you all. Jesus wants us to be a united in Him. He wants us to stand together and love one another like God is in Jesus and Jesus is in us so that we can show the world. How are we showing the world that we are united in Christ when all we do is bicker and fight and try to prove each other wrong instead of uplift, guide, and teach? How often have you corrected someone, not out of concern for their eternal soul, or out of love for them, or out of glory to God, but simply because you think they are wrong and you want them to believe what you believe?

How are we, as Christians, going to do this? We've got Catholics standing here, Baptists over there, Pentecostals on that side, Presbyterians over there. What does the world see? They see a bunch of people who all have the same instructions, the same message, the same job in this world and yet are divided over some of the silliest things imaginable. All the bickering over whether God is one being or three, or if infants should be baptized, or if sabbath is a sunday or a saturday, we sound like a bunch of pharisee's and are completely forgetting what God wanted us to do. He wants us to love one another as Christ loved us, and to stand united as God is united with Jesus.

That's what that means to me, I'm very interested to see what others have to say.

(and yes, my verses were taken out of the horribly wicked NIV given to my husband by a priest on our wedding day)
Peace be to you
It means I love you harley-angel and I want you to make it as much as I want to make it!

Why?
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

We are asked to empty the vessel and learn from the spirit(To be Born again)or the wineskin breaks.
We are the wineskin the word is the wine.Many choose not to listen.Wide and broad is the way to destruction.

I would hope that many would make it and pray so.

Love a friend in God
 
Feb 27, 2007
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#30
sigh.........


good point harley_angel.... and your point continues to be ignored.
 
H

Harley_Angel

Guest
#31
Thanks Imoss. I agree whole heartedly that loving someone also means giving them the full truth. But this can be done in a respectful way. Being sarcastic and prideful isn't going to give someone the Truth even if what you are saying is right. I've seen more people turned away from Christ because His followers chose to cram their thoughts and beliefs down the non-believers throat instead of providing insight, compassion, and good Scriptural evidence. When you see Jesus what will you tell Him? Will you be able to tell him that you loved everyone, stood by your beliefs, and offered your knowledge of the Truth to them, or will He have seen all you did was gloat and pressure and fuel your pride by "winning" arguments?

I don't expect this world to become perfect, and I surely don't think we should be all hippy joyful lovey dovey. That's not the kind of love I am talking about at all. But love is respectful, and kind, and patient, even when we are giving tough love. Love doesn't back down or abandon, but it doesn't push and shove and bully. Love isn't always easy or "nice" but it isn't rude, or arrogant, or dripping with sarcasm.

Before you correct someone, or try to show them the Truth, search your heart. Are you doing it out of love for them? Are you doing it to help save their soul and to bring glory to God? Or are you trying to win an argument, are you trying to show off your knowledge, are you trying to satisfy your own smugness? That's what the Pharisees did, and Jesus always responded with love, even when he was frustrated beyond belief.

Thank you everyone for your replies. It's interesting to see the different views on this.
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
837
17
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#32
If you don't believe that a person can love someone who doesn't love them back just look at a stalker.
 
H

Harley_Angel

Guest
#33
One could wonder if that is love or...obession.
 
H

Harley_Angel

Guest
#35
I was talking about stalkers!
 
Feb 27, 2007
3,179
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#36
she was responding to dino i think
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#37
John 17:20-23

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, THAT ALL OF THEM MAY BE ONE, Father, JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they MAY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE: I in them and you in me. MAY THEY BE BROUGHT TO COMPLETE UNITY to let the world know that you sent me and loved them even as you have loved me.
Pretty self explanatory. St. Paul spoke on it well, saying:

1 Corinthians 1:10 (New International Version)

Divisions in the Church

10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

1 Corinthians 1:10-11 (New International Version)

Divisions in the Church

10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.

Acts 4:32-33 (New International Version)

The Believers Share Their Possessions

32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all.

Philippians 2 (New International Version)

Philippians 2

Imitating Christ's Humility

1If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit andpurpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

2 Corinthians 13:11 (New International Version)

Final Greetings

11Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

With all the bickering, and stone-casting, and cries of heresy, lies, and deception I read on here, I wonder what these verses mean to you all. Jesus wants us to be a united in Him. He wants us to stand together and love one another like God is in Jesus and Jesus is in us so that we can show the world. How are we showing the world that we are united in Christ when all we do is bicker and fight and try to prove each other wrong instead of uplift, guide, and teach?
How can everyone teach when no one agrees? How can one guide when everyone disagrees on the direction? How can everyone uplift when the "teachings" that people teach are counter to every body else's teachings? The only answer to this (if someone is unwilling to accept the other group's "teachings") is to only discuss generalities, ambiguous morality and a common sense of ethics. Wholesome small talk.

How often have you corrected someone, not out of concern for their eternal soul, or out of love for them, or out of glory to God, but simply because you think they are wrong and you want them to believe what you believe?
Well, here's the problem, no? Everyone belongs to a different denomination/sect. More than that, good luck finding to people of the same denomination that agree across the board, even on the elementary teachings of Christ. So, now we have a huge mass of people that hold conflicting beliefs and each believes that they are "right". Some people seeing that they might not be right usually only wind up believing only what seems right to them but refuse to say that it is the Truth. In other words, out of a desire to feel united with everyone else, they simply agree to disagree.

But I would say that the majority of the people on here do want people to know the Truth. I've heard countless times how convinced protestants are that the Catholics have it "wrong" despite the fact that they can't agree on anything other than not being Catholic and that Jesus is Lord (but that too seems to be debatable in the minds of some).

So, it's probably not that people want people to believe what they believe (which is subjective) but that people want people to believe The Truth (as they believe it). Everyone believes the Holy Spirit has shown them the right way and that the Spirit has confirmed their belief despite the other bloke saying the same thing that disagrees with you. And so it's "war".

What happens in nearly every single thread is that everyone brings their arsenal of bible verses and try to frame those verses in a way that supports their position. Every individual, like a pope, has the ability to choose what they consider to be a dogma and what is non-essential or simply, "debatable". Once people go through enough cycles of posting their own set of bible verses, they (unaware that they're just canceling each other out) get frustrated and start playing on cliches and taboos. This is when the Scribes/Pharisees comments are thrown like grenades and lines are drawn in the sand.

For me, the lines have been drawn long ago and I don't get to choose my own set of dogmas and or have to justify my belief to others in a way that seems right to them. Orthodox pretty much believe the same thing across the board no matter the country or locality. Of course there are heretics that rise up but the Church spits them out soon enough and we go back to just being "of one mind, heart and faith".

How are we, as Christians, going to do this? We've got Catholics standing here, Baptists over there, Pentecostals on that side, Presbyterians over there. What does the world see? They see a bunch of people who all have the same instructions, the same message, the same job in this world and yet are divided over some of the silliest things imaginable. All the bickering over whether God is one being or three, or if infants should be baptized, or if sabbath is a sunday or a saturday, we sound like a bunch of pharisee's and are completely forgetting what God wanted us to do. He wants us to love one another as Christ loved us, and to stand united as God is united with Jesus.
We can still love others despite the fact that people have rejected The Truth or simply can't seem to make it past the buffet table of options that makes Christianity look subjective and pluralistic. Just because someone has heretical beliefs doesn't mean that we don't want them to drop their heresies. They are loved.

However, we can not call hate love. To say that despite un-like minds, conflicting beliefs, harmful and deceitful teachings and practices, we are still united, is like trying to hide the fact that you busted a neighbor's (the world's) vase, didn't even try to put it back together, left it laying in the many shards it broke into and when this neighbor asks you what happened, you say -- "Nothing. It's fine. It's just as it's supposed to be. Come and join us."


Yet, Jesus is not divided and his body is infallible.

Matthew 12:25 (New International Version)


25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.




NIV! :eek:




For those of you that are, because of your religion, unable to read the NIV:
Matthew 12:25 (King James Version)


25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:








And just to boot:


1 Corinthians 1:13 (New International Version)


13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?


Titus 1:9 (New International Version)

9He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.


Acts 2:42 (New International Version)

The Fellowship of the Believers

42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

1 Corinthians 11:2 (New American Standard Bible)

2Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.


2 Thessalonians 2:15 (New American Standard Bible)

15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.



1 Corinthians 10:17 (New International Version)

17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.








God bless.
 
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Harley_Angel

Guest
#38
Thank you so much for your post. You make a lot of good points, and your scripture choices are very relevant. Religion is very personal, and what we believe is rarely changed once we decide it's what we believe in. Nobody wants to be wrong, especially when it comes to the salvation of our eternal souls. I guess this is where we give up our arguments and persuasiveness to the Holy Spirit. We can only say so much to a person before we encounter the walls they've put up around their beliefs. I suppose once we've reached that wall, we've done our duty, and we should let the Holy Spirit work at breaking down the walls around what is wrong.

Again, thanks for your post.
 
May 21, 2009
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#39
We are to be one in Christ. I guess the first thing people forget is to put God first. How many people do you know that actually put God first? Most put themselves first. They are their own god. That's where the problems come in. There is to be one church under God. As far as all the stuff about babies being baptized I've seen a lot of babies, but I've never seen a baby who could say Jesus came from heaven where he was a God, changed himself into a man. died on a cross for me, came back to life, I confess my sins and I want Jesus to be my God so I wash my old self in much water. There are just things that are written in the bible that we must follow. People are mocking and making fun of the gifts, the book of Acts. We must keep praying. I don't like you getting attacked. I don't like when I get attacked. But the bible says we will be attacked. Jesus was attacked all the time. We are told to count it all joy. And we are told to pray for our enemies. God bless you much. We have to keep being love.
 
H

Harley_Angel

Guest
#40
Thank you loveschild. I guess when we are attacked and meet opposition to what we know is true, and what the Holy Spirit whispers to our hearts, it gives us a chance to stand firm in our beliefs. Sometimes simply standing up for what you believe in while being attacked, and not retaliating has more of an impact than trying to butt heads with the person attacking you. Thank you for your insight.
 
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