what has been fulfilled?

zone · Nov 16, 2016

so that's how it's done - refuse to examine other scriptures.
okay. bye bye

wanderer6059 · Nov 16, 2016

The release of Satan from his imprisonment is found in revelation 9.11.

His identity is a matter of dispute. Some make him Satan himself, while others take him to be only one of Satan's many evil subordinates. you cant prove that he is, or that this is the same.

This is describing the CURRENT reign of Christ with His saints. There is no suggestion it is on earth. Indeed the opposite. He reigns with the SOULS of the Christians.

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

context after shows earth....

[FONT=&quot]And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

context before shows it...

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

context is on earth with Him.[/FONT]

.

The first resurrection was that of Jesus. We share it with Him (eph 2.5-6; col 3.1)

agreed

1000 years in Scripture is symbolical of a long period of time. During this period we have been raised with Him

there is no evidence of that scriptural, actually my post refutes it.

The six mentions of “a thousand years” in the passage are sufficient to establish the doctrine as scriptural.the term “thousand” is never used alone anywhere else in the book of Revelation. Where it is used in combination with numbers, as the 12,000 of each tribe of Israel, there is no proof whatever that other than the literal sense is intended, and this is also true in the entire New Testament.

Of course it is scriptural, just misunderstood. In OT 1000 means a large unidentifiable number.

see above, plus OT used Aleph to mean that, not used in this seance.

.

the 144,000 is typology for the people of God, the church, as numbered by God and sealed.
evidence of this?

As for the rest of the NT the 1000 years is as one day, and one day as 1000 year, proving it is not a literal time period,
again evidence?

notuptome · Nov 16, 2016

zone said:

Unequal comparison. Jews saved by grace and gentiles saved by grace but Jews remain Jews and Gentiles remain Gentiles. Gentiles are part of the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant but are not Jewish.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

prove-all · Nov 16, 2016

zone said:

21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd:
they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant,
wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children,
and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant
with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be
in the midst of them for evermore.

prove-all · Nov 16, 2016

has not been fulfilled

Isaiah 66:23 (KJV)

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

wanderer6059 · Nov 16, 2016

zone said:

if its not in the same context yes, that's how false teaching is made by applying scripture in the wrong context.

Ahwatukee · Nov 16, 2016

zone said:

Zone, you don't just consult and apply the meaning of other scriptures because they also mention a thousand years. You don't apply their meanings just because it is speaking about the same length of time or of a similar event. There are however symbolisms in Revelation that require finding the answer by cross-referencing other scriptures. Consider the following example:

"A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."

Gen.37:9-10 gives us the answer to what the symbolism is here in Revelation 12 regarding the characteristics of the woman.

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”
When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Jacob here gives us the answer to who the sun, moon and stars represent:

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Wives

Stars = Twelve tribes of Israel

The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars is therefore symbolic, representing the nation Israel.

That is the proper way to interpret. But just applying the meaning of other scriptures because they mention the same amount of time, is not the proper way of interpreting. The following is an example of how not to interpret scripture:

"For every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills." (Psalm 50:10)

In the verse above, cattle on a thousand hills would be inferring that the cattle on a thousand hills would be an unknown number, meaning that God owns all of them and all the hills. But you don't read Rev.20 and apply the symbolic meaning from this scripture to it. Regarding Rev.20, there is no reason to consult PS 50:10 in order to interpret what a thousand years means in Rev.20. That would just be a misapplication of scripture.

As with Rev.20, there is no reason to cross-reference other scriptures regarding the thousand years and that because the context determines the meaning. That said, here in Rev.20, it is written that Satan will be bound for a thousand years and that he will be released at the end of that thousand years. It is also written that Christ will rule during that same thousand years and believers with Him. Therefore, the reader should believe that this period of time will be as specified, i.e. a literal thousand years.

prove-all · Nov 16, 2016

zone said:

Zechariah 2:12 (KJV)
And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land,
and shall choose Jerusalem again.

Exodus 32:13 (KJV)
Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self,
and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that
I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

Matthew 25:34 (KJV)
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 6:10 (KJV)
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

-the meek shall inherit the earth

Psalms 37:11 (KJV)
But ;the meek shall inherit the earth
and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalms 37:9 (KJV)
For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.

Psalms 37:22 (KJV)
For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Matthew 5:5 (KJV)
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Psalms 37:29 (KJV)
The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

Psalms 37:34 (KJV)
Wait on the Lord, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land:
when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

1 Corinthians 6:10 (KJV)
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,
shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV)
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Psalms 82:8 (KJV)
Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Isaiah 49:8 (KJV)
Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation
have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people,
to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

-

Zephaniah 2:3 (KJV)
Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment;
seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.

Angela53510 · Nov 16, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

This literal interpretation of Rev. 20 is where all you pre-trib, pre-mill people go wrong. You have this little maximum about "the literal interpretation" but that means interpreting it by 20th and 21st century standards, not first century standards.

The entire book of Revelation was written in symbols. So why on earth, would you want to pick out one word "millennia" which appears no where else in the book of Revelation, nor in that context in the NT, and suddenly make it not just literal, as in an exact 1000 years, but about something that is supposed to happen now, or in the near future, depending on how rabid your eschatology is?

The fact is, you should never make a doctrine out of a word which basically appears only once. (Ok three times, but all the same basic usage in the same place!) That is really bad hermeneutics!

You err by failing to interpret Revelations by the standard of to whom and when John wrote this. It was most certainly written to people John knew, and concerning events he knew about. Events which have been fufilled. Not the second coming of Christ, of course. That is not fulfilled.

This misuse of literalism, is exactly what caused the Crusades, and has set Muslim against Christian to the present day. The Crusaders were convinced by various religious authorities within the Catholic Church, that Jerusalem needed to be literally liberated, in order for Jesus Christ to return literally to Jerusalem. One thousand years after the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ at his first coming. Literally!

And it was liberated! But since Jesus did not return, we have to assume that this "literal" interpretation was wrong, and that a thousand years had a very different meaning. It behooves people caught up in Darbyism, to start reading Revelation, as well as other books in the OT and NT, from a first century viewpoint, not a self obessesive 21st century viewpoint. While we can definitely use the Bible to look at the future, what we cannot do is tear it out of context, force it to be literal, when it is not, just like most of the rest of Revelation is not literal, and refers to things that were recognizable by the people of that time, or will be recognizable, probably when Jesus returns his second time. (Not third time, as there is no mysterious "secret" rapture. That is not the way God operates!)

wanderer6059 · Nov 16, 2016

Angela53510 said:

This literal interpretation of Rev. 20 is where all you pre-trib, pre-mill people go wrong. You have this little maximum about "the literal interpretation" but that means interpreting it by 20th and 21st century standards, not first century standards.

The entire book of Revelation was written in symbols. So why on earth, would you want to pick out one word "millennia" which appears no where else in the book of Revelation, nor in that context in the NT, and suddenly make it not just literal, as in an exact 1000 years, but about something that is supposed to happen now, or in the near future, depending on how rabid your eschatology is?

The fact is, you should never make a doctrine out of a word which basically appears only once. (Ok three times, but all the same basic usage in the same place!) That is really bad hermeneutics!

You err by failing to interpret Revelations by the standard of to whom and when John wrote this. It was most certainly written to people John knew, and concerning events he knew about. Events which have been fufilled. Not the second coming of Christ, of course. That is not fulfilled.

This misuse of literalism, is exactly what caused the Crusades, and has set Muslim against Christian to the present day. The Crusaders were convinced by various religious authorities within the Catholic Church, that Jerusalem needed to be literally liberated, in order for Jesus Christ to return literally to Jerusalem. One thousand years after the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ at his first coming. Literally!

And it was liberated! But since Jesus did not return, we have to assume that this "literal" interpretation was wrong, and that a thousand years had a very different meaning. It behooves people caught up in Darbyism, to start reading Revelation, as well as other books in the OT and NT, from a first century viewpoint, not a self obessesive 21st century viewpoint. While we can definitely use the Bible to look at the future, what we cannot do is tear it out of context, force it to be literal, when it is not, just like most of the rest of Revelation is not literal, and refers to things that were recognizable by the people of that time, or will be recognizable, probably when Jesus returns his second time. (Not third time, as there is no mysterious "secret" rapture. That is not the way God operates!)

millenia is actually never used in the bible... and great job avoiding responding to my post that you can't refute.... you didn't even use anything in this last post to state you case and justify what you are saying. all you did is use $5 words to try and sound smart. next time come to the table with something of value.

Elizabeth619 · Nov 16, 2016

Angela! I was wondering when you were going to get here! I always enjoy these types of discussions with you! That and I'm typing from my phone and you give a more detailed description of what I want to last but too lazy to type it all out

Ahwatukee · Nov 16, 2016

Hello Angela,

As I continue to make known, your comment above is the crux of the problem in regards to interpreting Revelation. I and those whom God has led to study end-time events, know what is literal and what is symbolism. The book of Revelation should be read just like any other book, i.e. in the literal sense unless a symbolic interpretation is required. Until you and others understand this, you will not understand the book of Revelation. This is the exact reason why you don't understand that the literal wrath of God is coming, which is what the seals, trumpets and bow judgments are representing. It is also why you don't understand that there is going to be a literal device that will be placed on/in the right hand or forehead for the purpose of buying and selling.

Where is the rule that says that the words "a thousand years" has to appear somewhere else in the book of Revelation in order for it to be a valid number given in Rev.20? This is faulty logic! Remember, the word "apokalupsis" is defined as something that was previously unknown, hidden, that is now being revealed. The lid is being taken off. Therefore, there is no problem in believing that the thousand year reign of Christ has only been revealed here in Rev.20. In the same way, the information regarding the living church being changed and caught up was not previously known. Only the resurrection of the dead was known. But regarding this Paul said, "behold, I show you a mystery," demonstrating that it was something that he was making known, that was previously not known.

You mean six times.

1). He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years.

2). The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished.

3). They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

4). This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)

5). Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

6). When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison.

According to the scriptures above, there is going to be a thousand year reign of Christ, with Satan being bound during that same thousand years. I'm gonna have to go with a literal thousand years here. I also believe that God knew that those of us in the future would be reading the book of Revelation and so he made it known to us that the amount of time for Satan's binding and Christ's his reign here on this present earth would be a thousand years.

What is more plausible to believe, that the thousand years is the literal amount of time that is specified or to ignore what is written and apply the thousand years as symbolic, as being an unknown amount of time? Because of their preconceived or pre-taught belief that the book of Revelation is all symbolic, their failure in understanding it is inevitable.

And your error is not understanding that God wrote this for all believers throughout the entire church period and especially for those who would be living just prior to and during, the time of its fulfilment. Certainly the letters to the information from chapter one through the very end of chapter 3 can be applied to the entire church. But from chapter 4 onwards will be fulfilled in the near future, with the first seal being opened, which is representing the antichrist, the rider on the white horse. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgements are specifically meant for the end leading up to Christ's return to end the age.

I do not interpret the book of Revelation with complete literalism. I interpret it in the literal sense until a symbolic interpretation is obvious and required. In opposition, one who reads the book of Revelation as being entirely symbolic, it will failure to understand it.

There is a big difference between what the pope or leaders of the catholic church says vs. what scripture says. Those are the words of men, while scripture is the word of God.

Scripture doesn't have the thousand years beginning until after God's wrath has been accomplished via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Suffice to say, these unprecedented plagues of wrath have not yet taken place. The chronological order of events has the wrath of God taking place first, with Jesus returning after the last bowl judgment has been poured out. The only way to attempt to make the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as being fulfilled, would be to interpret them symbolically and thereby taking away their true meaning, which is exactly what expositors do.

The above is another problem, which is, not recognizing that the gathering of the church as a completely separate event from when Christ returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. At the gathering of the church, Jesus is not returning to the earth, but only descending and meeting those in the air who will be resurrecting and those living who will be changed and caught up. After the 7th bowl has been poured out, which ends God's wrath, Jesus will return to the earth to end the age. And that army following Him out of heaven one white horses, will be those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up. So there is a big difference and purpose between these two events.

Regarding the millennial period, here are some of the characteristics, which by the way, do not currently exist:

* The wolf will live with the lamb

* The leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.

* The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together

* The lion will eat straw like the ox.

* The infant will play near the hole of a Cobra, and the young child put his hand into the viper’s nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. (Isa.11:6-9)

* Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isa.65:20)

Regarding the conditions above, when have we ever seen them as being fulfilled? The answer would be, Never! And that is because these are going to be the conditions existing during the millennial period. Prey and predator animals and their young lying down together. If a man only lives to be a hundred years old he will be thought to be a mere child. Regarding this, the longevity of life that existed before the flood will exist during the millennial period.

And, when have you seen or heard of a lion eating straw like the ox?

Angela53510 · Nov 16, 2016

wanderer6059 said:

So just who are you anyway, that you come pushing around this forum, that you have not been seen in for years, and start calling out people, and telling us where to go and when to get off??

If I missed refuting your post either I did not care to respond, because it was not worth responding to, or I simply jumped ahead to the last page, and then failed to actually see it.

And you the big seminary student, who tells people to respond from Strong's, a Concordance, rather than a Lexicon like Bauer for Greek or Brown-Driver-Briggs for Hebrew.

Don't be jealous of my $5 words, maybe if you study to show yourself a worker approved, instead of someone who trolls and has the purpose of putting people down (yes, I saw all those deleted posts!) then you too, could learn some things about Bible interpretation, or as we fondly call it at seminary "Hermeneutics!"

Angela53510 · Nov 16, 2016

wanderer6059 said:

Oops, forgot to mention about me using "millennia" for "thousand." I had thought we were talking about the 1000 year millennium. But if you would prefer chilia or χίλιας, (feminine noun) I will use that, instead. I do hope you will post your actual conversation about the Bible, in Greek too! Then we can really get at the truth of what the Bible is saying, instead of these arbitrary assignations of symbols to words in the book of Revelation. Kind of funny how some people demand literalism, then go off and make everything into symbols, that only Darby and his ilk can interpret. (Not speaking of you, here!)

Agricola · Nov 16, 2016

So I still want to know who the two witnesses are and how everyone in the world saw them die, gave each other presents then all of the witnessed the two witnesses come back to life and ascend to heaven. I can not see how this can be spiritual, symbolism or whatever.

Angela53510 · Nov 16, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Hello Angela,

As I continue to make known, your comment above is the crux of the problem in regards to interpreting Revelation. I and those whom God has led to study end-time events, know what is literal and what is symbolism. The book of Revelation should be read just like any other book, i.e. in the literal sense unless a symbolic interpretation is required. Until you and others understand this, you will not understand the book of Revelation. This is the exact reason why you don't understand that the literal wrath of God is coming, which is what the seals, trumpets and bow judgments are representing. It is also why you don't understand that there is going to be a literal device that will be placed on/in the right hand or forehead for the purpose of buying and selling.

Where is the rule that says that the words "a thousand years" has to appear somewhere else in the book of Revelation in order for it to be a valid number given in Rev.20? This is faulty logic! Remember, the word "apokalupsis" is defined as something that was previously unknown, hidden, that is now being revealed. The lid is being taken off. Therefore, there is no problem in believing that the thousand year reign of Christ has only been revealed here in Rev.20. In the same way, the information regarding the living church being changed and caught up was not previously known. Only the resurrection of the dead was known. But regarding this Paul said, "behold, I show you a mystery," demonstrating that it was something that he was making known, that was previously not known.

You mean six times.

1). He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years.

2). The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished.

3). They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

4). This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)

5). Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

6). When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison.

According to the scriptures above, there is going to be a thousand year reign of Christ, with Satan being bound during that same thousand years. I'm gonna have to go with a literal thousand years here. I also believe that God knew that those of us in the future would be reading the book of Revelation and so he made it known to us that the amount of time for Satan's binding and Christ's his reign here on this present earth would be a thousand years.

What is more plausible to believe, that the thousand years is the literal amount of time that is specified or to ignore what is written and apply the thousand years as symbolic, as being an unknown amount of time? Because of their preconceived or pre-taught belief that the book of Revelation is all symbolic, their failure in understanding it is inevitable.

And your error is not understanding that God wrote this for all believers throughout the entire church period and especially for those who would be living just prior to and during, the time of its fulfilment. Certainly the letters to the information from chapter one through the very end of chapter 3 can be applied to the entire church. But from chapter 4 onwards will be fulfilled in the near future, with the first seal being opened, which is representing the antichrist, the rider on the white horse. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgements are specifically meant for the end leading up to Christ's return to end the age.

I do not interpret the book of Revelation with complete literalism. I interpret it in the literal sense until a symbolic interpretation is obvious and required. In opposition, one who reads the book of Revelation as being entirely symbolic, it will failure to understand it.

There is a big difference between what the pope or leaders of the catholic church says vs. what scripture says. Those are the words of men, while scripture is the word of God.

Scripture doesn't have the thousand years beginning until after God's wrath has been accomplished via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Suffice to say, these unprecedented plagues of wrath have not yet taken place. The chronological order of events has the wrath of God taking place first, with Jesus returning after the last bowl judgment has been poured out. The only way to attempt to make the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as being fulfilled, would be to interpret them symbolically and thereby taking away their true meaning, which is exactly what expositors do.

The above is another problem, which is, not recognizing that the gathering of the church as a completely separate event from when Christ returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. At the gathering of the church, Jesus is not returning to the earth, but only descending and meeting those in the air who will be resurrecting and those living who will be changed and caught up. After the 7th bowl has been poured out, which ends God's wrath, Jesus will return to the earth to end the age. And that army following Him out of heaven one white horses, will be those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up. So there is a big difference and purpose between these two events.

Regarding the millennial period, here are some of the characteristics, which by the way, do not currently exist:

* The wolf will live with the lamb

* The leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.

* The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together

* The lion will eat straw like the ox.

* The infant will play near the hole of a Cobra, and the young child put his hand into the viper’s nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. (Isa.11:6-9)

* Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isa.65:20)

Regarding the conditions above, when have we ever seen them as being fulfilled? The answer would be, Never! And that is because these are going to be the conditions existing during the millennial period. Prey and predator animals and their young lying down together. If a man only lives to be a hundred years old he will be thought to be a mere child. Regarding this, the longevity of life that existed before the flood will exist during the millennial period.

And, when have you seen or heard of a lion eating straw like the ox?

I stand corrected on the 6 times appears in Rev.20. I guess another 7 hours of driving through the snow of the Rocky Mountains left me more tired than I realized. However, it remains that this is all symbolism for the same thing.

As for what the popes decided in medieval Europe back in the 900's, and 1000's, the point is:

1.They were wrong in the interpretation. They did not need to literally take Jerusalem for Jesus to return. Jesus doesn't need any help in this or anything else.

2. Although they were wrong, we are still feeling the echoes over 1100 years later. This agressive march on Palestine and the Middle East turned Islam against Christianity. Who knows if they had not gone, and tried to take over if relations between the West or Muslim countries would be better?

OR

The fact that the Crusaders pushed back the Muslims, resulted in holding off an Islamic invasion of all of Europe for a long time.

The fact is, you can pull symbols out of a hat, and assign various meanings to them, but it doesn't mean they are right, or that even if they are wrong, that some dire consequence won't come out of them.

I really am not going to get into refuting every symbol you have interpreted as literal, you have such a complicated system you have erected for an endtimes scenerio, it is probably better to pull out a few key places where you have erred, and just let the whole thing collapse on itself.

But that won't be till later for me, I'm babysitting my grandchildren, and I need to go make supper for them. But I would love to see others take that task on!

Ahwatukee · Nov 16, 2016

What is complicated about it? Because I understand that the wrath of God is going to take place just as the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment proclaim?

Because I expound on there being a literal thousand years in which Satan will be bound and Christ will reign, which is what scripture states?

Jesus said that he would build His church and the gates of Hades would not prevail against it, which is still in progress. In between right now and the time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God must take place, as prophesied by the OT prophets and the apostles. The results will be the decimation of the population of the earth and the dismantling of all human government.

If you would stop repeating what you have heard from others regarding Revelation being symbolic and listen to what those of us who meticulously study end-time events have to share, you may learn something.

wanderer6059 · Nov 16, 2016

Angela53510 said:

or you can't....

i do use them just don't post what people won't read anyway...

and really i'm just bored at work debating for the sake of it..... this entire post means nothing than to kill time till i can go back to my walk

Connock · Nov 16, 2016

Not yet fulfilled:
- Desolation of Egypt (Ezekiel 29)
- Destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)

Angela53510 · Nov 16, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

I have read the Bible, and come to these conclusions on my own, 35 years ago. However, I kept my mouth shut, because the church I was in was pre-mill and pre-trib rapture, and anyone who did not believe that, was a heretic and not saved. Thank God for leading me out of that denomination, and into a denomination that allows for divergent eschatological beliefs, as long as it is based on Scripture.

Praise God that he not only saved me in spite of any eschatological guesses, but he also led me to understand the Bible, based on the Bible not the writings of Darby and Scofield.

You think you have studied the Bible? Well, sadly, if you always study the same perspective, in fact you have just been brainwashed to further believe the erroneous beliefs you are already mistaken in.

I think very much that the one parroting what others have written, and studying their faulty works, is you! You've been doing this since you joined this forum last year. I do think you have some orthodox theology in other areas, from what I have read, but as far as end times, you are just "repeating what you have heard from others, regarding end times!" LOL

what has been fulfilled?

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