What Laws are still valid to christians

[homwardbound]

Exodus 20:20 Moshe answered the people, "Don't be afraid, because God has come only to test you and make you fear him, so that you won't commit sins." (CJB)

Scripture is to edify scripture, and it seems to be here in contradiction, which it is not.
A reverent fear to the creator known as Father of Son Jesus Christ. For God is the only one that can destroy both Body and Soul. So if I am to fear anyone that would be God, not the evil that is allover in this world. Now God sent his Son Jesus to show his awesome love beyond Flesh comprehension. So
While we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Hmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sounds to me like God through Son has made friendship in Love to us, as while we were yet failures? So perfect love of god to us, casts out fear. that started with fear to know God.

 

[homwardbound]

The last chapter of the Bible, Revelation 22, asserts that doing the commandments or laws of God is something that matters for those who are the Blessed.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

And this is done through the Love of God, that proceeds out of the new birth in God, by the Spirit of God that leads us. Just as this is what led Christ, whom Christ sent to us to be born again in the Spirit of god here and now, today, thank you very much. And for me I am thanking and praising God, for this amazing gift, so that I can and do eat off of the tree of Life, Christ Jesus

 

[homwardbound]

All kidding aside, I have MAJOR problems with people taking the Word of God apart into sections, some being very important, and other parts of the Bible being less important, and some parts being seen as extremely corrupted. I am going to post something that I have on the thread that I started a couple of months ago, and then let it lie. One final thought though, Why on earth would Jesus degrade His own Father by leading people to believe that through Him, His Father’s Word was of no importance any longer, in certain areas? Doesn't this compute in your heads that God and Jesus both said, "man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God? What is it that we don't understand the word "EVERY?" I have had remarks thrown my way from both sides. I have had people that say the law is to be obeyed, rail at me because I incorporate Jesus with the law, and I have had people say I belong to a cult because I endorse the law as relevant for today. I am in the middle of two factions that I think are both wrong, and the ones advocating grace, are name calling saying “legalizers” and “judaizers.” You thing Satan is in the mix somewhere, and is there any hope of conquering the disputes over the law and grace? Satan used the words of God to tempt Jesus, and Jesus used His Father’s words to ward Him off. The truth came from Jesus, and the lies came from Satan, but they both used the Word of God. Go figure!
The following is a clear picture as to why Jesus Christ had a major problem with the Pharisees in respect to their religion that was skewed, not only in their distorted interpretation of the law, but also using the writings of truth for the purpose of self elevation. These two major distortions presented our living God, and Father of Christ Jesus, as non-definitive, without mercy, and unloving. Human nature is always vulnerable to the temptation of making God after the image that we prefer, rather than representing Him in Spirit and in truth. That’s why prayer and Bible study are so important for us to be sincere in all we do, and say, to properly represent our Lord and Savior.

Matthew 15:1-9 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Isaiah 29:13-16 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudentmen shall be hid.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

What the Pharisees had done was make a distorted law so that assets rightfully due to the parents would be used elsewhere, thereby freeing the children of any obligation of honor and respect to their parents. This distorted law also negated the promise of God toward the children.

Exodus 20:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Deuteronomy 5:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Curseth in Hebrew=to make light of the parents position in the family, and purposefully not abiding by the concerns and rules of the household.

Exodus 21:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 20:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Yes, this is truth, so what do you follow the Spirit of the Law as I see you saying you do, and not the letter. thanks, for the letter kills and the Spirit gives life and we do justly, love Mercy and walk humbly unto Father, through Son

 

[homwardbound]

It's not a question of whether the law exists or not, but your relation to it. Laws don't have authority over dead people. If you are under the law, you are under a curse. It is a sign that you are being disobedient by not putting the old man to death and trusting in the new life.

please let us discern between what law we are talking about, the Letter or the Spirit of the Law?

 

[homwardbound]

Look, the bottom line is, if one is living as Jesus told us to live, that is He said to do His Commandments, then one would automatically be doing what The Law instructs!...look at it like a check list if you want to. But then again...what commandments was Jesus talking about?

The Love of God best described in 1 Cor. 13:4-13, and then read 1 cor. 13:1-3 and see what flesh is still without the love of God in them via the Holy Ghost that through belief has come to live in us, and as we grow we see to die to self so God can live through us as Christ so well showed us all, to be led by Father.

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

I've noticed a few times with heretics (I've only cared to listen to a few), that often, they will say they do not do something that scripture condemns, all the while doing exactly what it is they deny they are doing. People tend to listen to their words, and think, well, they can't be doing that which scripture condemns, because they said they aren't doing it.

I'm thinking of Benny Hinn on TV who whips people with his jacket, but a lot of heretics seem to have this trait (I mean the condemning what it is they are doing, not the whipping people with jackets).

 

[homwardbound]

This is [GOD's] commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1 John 3:23

how can anyone do that unless they first see'
1 John 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.
Romans 5:5 and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

 

[homwardbound]

Operative phrase: trying to be justified. . .

Yes we are justified through the death and resurrection:

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

please let us discern between what law we are talking about, the Letter or the Spirit of the Law?

The law of Moses, obviously, which is the letter.

 

[homwardbound]

I think your looking at this wrong.

1. Jesus fulfilled it as High priest. on the cross. When one comes to Christ through faith, this fulfilling of the law is fulfilled in them.
2. Until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will fade away, It will continue to do what it was intended to do since it was given, Lead us to the redeemer. the true high priest. And help us know we STILL fall short. even after we have been redeemed.

what it never has done, and never will be able to do. is teach a man HOW to live a righteous life.

as for Gods law vs pharisee law.. I agree. But mosaic law (gods law) again was NEVER intended to hos us HOW to live a righteous life, even without the pharisee law

Yes it was and is to show us our need for the redeemer Christ Jesus, the way, the truth and the only way to new life, via the resurrection, that God gives us in the Spirit, that was lost in Adam and Eve, Thanks

 

[homwardbound]

tell us HOW Gods law shows us HOW to obey?

You won't find it, It is just a guide to show us how good we do at it, it does not tell us how.. Paul was very adament about this. the law came and sin INCREASED,, why?? what happens when you are thinking of sin? temptation comes, and you risk falling, so if you are thinking "do not do this" you are continually thinking of sin.

instead, look to the spirit. You will not think of the sin, and will not NEED the law in that aspect. however, when you do fall. immediately the law does what it should. Shows your sin, and you continued need for Christ.

So maybe this might help to see the truth that you just said, and thanks
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

 

[homwardbound]

it is MUCH more than this. Many people have put the old man to death, yet still fall to temptation. The law shows them their sin, and continues to show their need for Christ.

if it ONLY says a man has not put the old man to death, Then we are in trouble. because it means non of us have.. Only sinless perfection would be allowed.

I trust in Christ and if ever I think to be above measure, God sends me a messenger of Satan to buffet me. So now I glory in my iniquities, because in my weakness God's strength is made perfect, Thank you Jesus.

 

[homwardbound]

So you don't think it is saying the option to start trying to keep the law (for whatever reason) places you under the law? Whereas the Jew who is called need not feel like he must stop what he has been doing?

1 Cor 7:18 - 19
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.[SUP]20 [/SUP]Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

And that would be God's type of Love yes? That God imputes to his Children that believe god and have no confidence in the flesh?
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

[KohenMatt]

So all that saga with the apostles in the church at Jerusalem, the issues Paul raised with the Galations, etc. were just to muddy the waters, in your expert opinion? Sort of to keep Christians on their toes, to see if they'd miss it?

They were talking about circumcision in order to be right before God. Circumcision wasn't originally intended for that.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

They were talking about circumcision in order to be right before God. Circumcision wasn't originally intended for that.

You're just making things up. Or just repeating what others have made up.

 

[homwardbound]

Lets take it a step further......the very next verse Jesus says:

Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


so if we all must only worry about the two Great Commandments, what commandments is Jesus speaking of here?
and then the next verse Jesus says:

Mat 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

but we are under Grace....what could Jesus be speaking of here?.....lets take a brief look at a scribe, extremely dedicated to his work, sits hours upon hours even could be a whole year painstakingly coping writings and such. What about a Pharisee....also highly dedicated to his belief (although wrong) dedicates his whole day studying and following every law of his right down to the dumb act of putting on his left shoe first then the right and then only tie the lefts lace!...how dedicated and disciplined is that!.....and that is how we are expected to be following Christ...who was Jesus addressing all this to?.....His disciples!

All that was done in Matt, Mark, Luke and John prior to Christ's death on the cross was under the Jewish law of Moses and Christ's fulfilling it, And at the same time was annihilating all the people in their inability to be perfect before God through works of the flesh.
Read Matt 19, where when the disciples were convinced of this and asked Christ after watching that rich man walk away sad in not being able to be perfect. They asked how is it possible to enter heaven
[h=3]Matthew 19:23-26[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. [SUP]25 [/SUP]When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? [SUP]26 [/SUP]But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

There is a definite before the cross and after the cross. After we are through the Body made perfect through his Death in order to receive a new life in born again Spirit of God by the resurrection, a gift from God to us.
olossians 1:21-23
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [SUP]23 [/SUP]if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Do we believe this or not from God to us? Why are we so busy fighting and or running? When by God through Christ we are made whole again?

 

[homwardbound]

Well, I see the problem you are presenting.
Since the blood of Jesus cleanses, why would anyone continue the defilement-cleansing ceremonies?
It would be hard to want to adhere to those practices without some belief that they have merit.

And I think merit is the issue you are presenting.
But that applies even to the believer keeping Jesus' commands.
If we are obedient because we think we are meriting favor with God, or putting God in our debt,
rather than just serving the Lord in love and giving thanks for his provision,
we have slipped from grace to works as the source of God's favor.

In all things, the believer is to obey simply to please the God he loves, not to merit something in return, even his favor.

So it is the motive of our obedience that determines its nature, whether it is works for merit, or simply serving the Lord in thanks.

And don't you think Paul touches on this very issue?

Ro 14:1-4, ff - "Accept him whose faith is weak (those unwilling to give up dietary restrictions--vv. 2-4, 6, or keeping of the Sabbath and other special days, vv. 5-6), without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything (including pork) must not look down on the man who does not, and the man who does not eat everything (pork) must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

But the issue here is motive for our practices: are they to merit favor, or simply to servethe Lord in love.

And this really puts in relief why Paul says to judge no one in these matters, because only God knows what their true motives are.

The below is what David looked forward to, and we look back to that day that has occurred and are thankful

Psalm 100:4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.

 

[KohenMatt]

if you're not following the Torah for "anything relating to justification, salvation or righteousness", why do you think men should be circumcised?

Matt, i'm concerned you're playing with fire.
tacking on 'not for anything relating to justification, salvation or righteousness' after teaching people they are under the Law (which is what you do teach.....otherwise you'd never suggest circumcision for any reason) doesn't help the new believer understand.

Because it was always meant to be a sign of the covenant with God. It wasn't intended to affect salvation. People might say then that they don't need that particular sign because of this or that, but God still told His people to do it.

And it sure seems like people really want me to be saying I'm "under the law". There is a big difference between following the law because you think you need to in order to improve your standing with God, and following the law BECAUSE you're already saved and you want to be obedient to what God has said.
What is everyone here defining "under the law" as?

Think about a marriage, which is essentially what our relationship with God is like. You get married because you love that person. But just because you get married doesn't mean you stop buying her flowers and going out dates. Do you need to do things in order to stay married? No. Does it show your wife you love her? Yes.

There's a BIG difference. If your can't see it, that's OK.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would say yes. Because Jesus never said not to, and He told us to follow the Torah.
And as always, not for anything relating to justification, salvation or righteousness.

Um not sure I agree.

Circumcision was a sign given to Israel as part of their covenant with God. We have no part in this covenant. so do not see the connection.

I think it should be, yes, because it is a health issue. But to say I would tell a 20 y/o man to be circumcised because God commands it. I can not see it.

 

[homwardbound]

Both. And you're right. The law can't make us righteous. It's purpose is to show us how to live physically. It also is our way of saying that we love God so much that we'll do our best to be obedient to the things He told us to do. Not for obedience's sake, but because we love Him. And it also comes by the Holy Spirit teaching us how to live. But, the Holy Spirit will always agree with Jesus' words. And Jesus's words will always agree with God's.

God wrote the Law.
Jesus wrote the Law.
The Holy Spirit wrote the Law.

God says it's eternal.
Jesus says it's eternal.
The Holy Spirit says it's eternal.

And that is the Law of Love, so if:
Luke 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

Yet at the same time:
Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
So either we love this world and the things in it or we Love God above all things in and of this world?