What laws given in the OT should be tossed out?

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Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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yeshuaofisrael.org
#41
Because I am nor under the law for my salvation, I am most certainly under the law for my guidance. You can live your life willy nilly, never listening to the Lord but that way is not for me.

What Christ fulfilled was all the prophets told about Him, Christ did not change the way His Father and My God created the world to be.

God is love, His spirit rules the spiritual world. Every law is an expression of that. Everything that is spoken of the law in the 119th psalm is true of the law. It blesses the people who love the Lord.

If this makes me a Judaizer then YES, I love the Lord and I love the law. The idea that God will not forgive me of my sins because I love Him and want to obey Him is your idea, I have been told by God that through the blood of His Son I will be forgiven my sins. I take the word of God, not your word.
Well Blick, they want to throw out the commandments of God and call that living under grace through faith. They also reject that the Fourth Commandment wasn't established under the law.
I quoted you earlier: The Sabbath was sanctified at creation, and no one in the New Testament said to stop honoring it.
You've got the right idea. Let them call you names. Don't let grace give you license to break the commandments of God.

Rev. 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
2,588
518
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#42
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us( Jew, Gentile);
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts ( moral laws, laws of love), their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

Jesus took the physical ordinances of Israel out of the way nailing them to His cross for they were contrary to us, which means they had no bearing on spiritual salvation.

Since they could not receive the Spirit in the Old Testament God had them do physical ordinances until the Spirit was available to them.

The Gentiles did not receive the physical ordinances of Israel, but creation testifies of a God that created all things, and of His attributes, which one of them is love, for He provided food, and the means to make clothing, and shelter, and covers the 2 greatest laws, love God, and love people, so people are without excuse.

Jesus took the physical ordinances away and made Jew and Gentile one new man making peace between them with the moral laws, laws of love, as the common denominator between them, the 2 greatest laws, love God, and love people.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

We have to obey the spiritual laws, love God, and love people, but some people do not understand the extent of that.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

That is the definition of love, which love does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth to hate sin, and do not want sin, and abstain from sin by the Spirit.

There is no excuse for the power of the Spirit is there to help us, and a Spirit led life will not sin.

Some people say they cannot abstain from sin, and sin daily, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, but by them saying they cannot abstain from sin they testify against themselves that they do sin, and many hold unto sin and think they are right with God.

But the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, for this is what seals them, and the way they are led of the Spirit, that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
14,790
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74
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#43
no, you do not take the Word of God the Father. God the Father said of the Son, on the mount of transfiguration , " this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, hear Him!

this elevates and seperates the words in red over the rest of Scripture.

you and the other judeaizers insist on hearing the words of the Father at Sinai. you do not obey the Father and hear the Son, who says to believe in Him for eternal life.
not keep the Law for eternal life.
You claim the Father gave the law at Sinai. No, it was always Christ. He said before Abraham was, I AM. That means He was the one talking to Moses from the burning bush. It was always the pre-incarnate Jesus dealing with all the ancient patriarchs. John 1 says He spoke at the creation.

1 Cor. 10:1-4
"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." :rolleyes:
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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#44
John 6:28-29,28 So they said to Him, “What should we do to work the works of the Mighty One?” יהושע answered and said to them, “This is the work of the Mighty One, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”



Acts 7:37-38, “This is the Mosheh who said to the children of Yisra’yl, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear.’ This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received the living Words to give to us.”



John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey



John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”



Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”



Matthew 17:4-5, “And Kĕpha answering, said to יהושע, “Master, it is good for us to be here. If You wish, let us make here three booths: one for You, one for Mosheh, and one for Ěliyahu. While he was still speaking, see, a bright cloud overshadowed them. And see, a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I did delight. Hear Him!”



John 8:24, “Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.”
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
#45
Because I am nor under the law for my salvation, I am most certainly under the law for my guidance. You can live your life willy nilly, never listening to the Lord but that way is not for me.

What Christ fulfilled was all the prophets told about Him, Christ did not change the way His Father and My God created the world to be.

God is love, His spirit rules the spiritual world. Every law is an expression of that. Everything that is spoken of the law in the 119th psalm is true of the law. It blesses the people who love the Lord.

If this makes me a Judaizer then YES, I love the Lord and I love the law. The idea that God will not forgive me of my sins because I love Him and want to obey Him is your idea, I have been told by God that through the blood of His Son I will be forgiven my sins. I take the word of God, not your word.
May Yah bless and guide you!

Isaiah 8:20, "To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Isaiah 51:7, “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, a people in whose heart is My Torah (Instructions/Law): do not fear the reproach of men, nor be afraid of their reviling.”

1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”
 
Sep 3, 2016
5,217
453
83
#46
Every Christian trusts the Lord and believes Him in some capacity. The trouble is, most do not trust Him or believe Him correctly.

You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:82

WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

The Truth that the Believer must have, is that the Cross and the Resurrection, which speak of the Finished Work of Christ, pertains not only to our initial Salvation experience, but as well to our everyday Victory over the world, the flesh, and the Devil. The Believer must understand the Truth that he was in Christ when Christ died on the Cross, was in Christ when He was buried, was in Christ when he was raised from the dead, and continues to be in Christ as He is now exalted at the Right Hand of the Father (Roman 6:3-5; Ephesians 2:6). Consequently, if Christ defeated Satan, that means the Christian has defeated Satan. If Christ atoned for all sin, then no sin can attach itself to the Believer, that is, if the Believer keeps trusting Christ. If Christ is a Law-keeper, than the Believer is a Law-keeper. If Christ is victorious, then the Believer is victorious.

The Believer must understand this, trust in this, believe this, and act upon it, even on a daily basis. This is what Jesus meant by us taking up the Cross daily and following Him (Luke 9:23).

This is the "Truth" which we must learn, act upon, and continue to act upon, which guarantees the help of the Holy Spirit.

If the Believer does not know and understand this "Truth" to simply tell him to "trust Jesus," will really not help him that much. It is the same as telling him that he must "get in the Altars." Without knowing this Truth, he won't really know why he is in the Altars.

In fact, he will be attempting to trust the Lord to do something for him, which in fact, has already been done. He will be attempting to have Faith in God for something, that's actually already taking place. He will be attempting to ask the Lord for something, which in reality has already been brought about.

Jimmy Swaggart Bible Commentary
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
9,466
1,546
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#47
Explain how you are not a Judaizer?

Read Acts 15, especially verses 28 and 29. Then read Paul's letter to the Galatians.

Christians are not under the Law as given to Moses. We are not bound to the feasts, the holy days, the ceremonial and civil laws, the offerings, or any other part of it. The Law is fulfilled in Jesus Christ... fulfilled like a mortgage fully paid, with nothing left outstanding. Those in Christ are filled with the Holy Spirit, Who works in us to become like Christ in our thoughts, words, and actions. In Christ we are made righteous and sealed for redemption. The Law adds nothing to this finished work. The attempt to adhere to the Law actually takes us away from the grace of God.
Right on, Dino,

I would only add that Christ met the righteous requirements of the law on every believers behalf, satisfying it completely, which is what He meant when He said, "Don't think that I have come to set aside the law and the prophets. I did not come set them aside, but to fulfill them."

Whenever one attempts to bring in another requirement for salvation along side of Christ's sacrifice, it is the same as saying that the Lord's sacrifice is insufficient. Paul gave an example of attempting to keep the law to be reconciled to God vs. salvation by grace through faith, as revealed below:

"What then will we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone"

So, when we bring in other requirements such as keeping the Sabbath on Saturday, the ten commandments, abstaining from certain foods, etc., then we are trying to do what Israel did and is doing, i.e. attempting to obtain salvation by our own efforts. Should we have a desire for good words? Most definitely, but not to obtain or maintain salvation, but eager to do good in order to glorify God and for which we will also be rewarded for. Jesus already took are of the salvation part. Trusting in our own works puts our focus on our own efforts. However, if we trust in Christ as the One who provided salvation for us, then it causes us to focus on Him and His finished work and not on ours. Jesus gave an example of this illustrated below:

"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Notice that in the scripture above, when these types of people find out that they are not able to enter the kingdom of God, their very response gives them away as to why they cannot enter in "did we not." We don't obtain salvation and inherit the kingdom of God by what we do, but by what Jesus did. You can substitute their works above with, keeping the Sabbath on Saturday, keeping the ten commandments, abstaining from foods, etc., etc. If we could get there by performing the works of the law, then Jesus would not have had to shed His blood.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
9,466
1,546
113
#48
May Yah bless and guide you!

Isaiah 8:20, "To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Isaiah 51:7, “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, a people in whose heart is My Torah (Instructions/Law): do not fear the reproach of men, nor be afraid of their reviling.”

1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”
And these are His commands:

"And this is His commandment, that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another, just as He gave the commandment to us."

He is not speaking about the commandments of the Law given to Moses. Mankind could not and cannot keep law, which why Jesus appeared in the flesh in order met the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf, bringing it to its completion for every believer. I would remind you and all, that the scripture says:

"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!"

"We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
#49
And these are His commands:

"And this is His commandment, that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another, just as He gave the commandment to us."

He is not speaking about the commandments of the Law given to Moses. Mankind could not and cannot keep law, which why Jesus appeared in the flesh in order met the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf, bringing it to its completion for every believer. I would remind you and all, that the scripture says:

"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!"

"We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."
SO how do we believe in Yahshua? :

John 6:28-29,28 So they said to Him, “What should we do to work the works of the Mighty One?” יהושע answered and said to them, “This is the work of the Mighty One, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 8:24, “Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.”

"whom He sent" "believe that I am He" Deuteronomy 18:18-19

You will see twice in acts it is repeated post resurrection as still valid.

Acts 7:37-38, “This is the Mosheh who said to the children of Yisra’yl, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear.’ This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received the living Words to give to us.”



John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey



John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”



Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”



Matthew 17:4-5, “And Kĕpha answering, said to יהושע, “Master, it is good for us to be here. If You wish, let us make here three booths: one for You, one for Mosheh, and one for Ěliyahu. While he was still speaking, see, a bright cloud overshadowed them. And see, a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I did delight. Hear Him!”



John 8:24, “Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.”
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
#50
and what about these 2? Throw them out? Or the way to live?

Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

all” is word #G3650 - holos - Strong's Concordance, holos: whole, complete, Original Word: ὅλος, η, ον, Part of Speech: Adjective, Transliteration: holos, Phonetic Spelling: (hol'-os), Short Definition: all, the whole, entire, Definition: all, the whole, entire, complete

Heaven and earth has not passed away;

Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away…"
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
2,866
896
113
#51
no, you do not take the Word of God the Father. God the Father said of the Son, on the mount of transfiguration , " this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, hear Him!

this elevates and seperates the words in red over the rest of Scripture.

you and the other judeaizers insist on hearing the words of the Father at Sinai. you do not obey the Father and hear the Son, who says to believe in Him for eternal life.
not keep the Law for eternal life.
God said to hear Christ. Christ told us that He is one with the Father, and they are in agreement. When you tell me I do not take the word of God, I am assuming that you object to m6y listening to God the Father as well as God the Son. When we are told to hear Christ by God the Father, it is not telling us to not hear God the Father because we hear the Son. They give the same message.

Although God the Father is, in fact, the Father. It was the Father who raised the Son from the grave, the Son did not raise Himself.

The Son told us that He did not change anything of the Father.

There seems to be a misunderstanding in our modern day church about scripture for all words of the NT is accepted but every bit of the words God gave us before Christ is questioned. I believe it is because they include instructions that helped the Hebrews live according to law. There is also misunderstanding about the new covenant, for when we were given the Holy Spirit to guide us instead of the rituals people don't seem to be able to tell what the Holy Spirit replaced. Also, we are to die with Christ, to join Christ and accept that He paid for our sins. As we put on the spirit of God and Christ and accept this spirit in how we live there seems to be a misunderstanding that as legalism is gone to be replaced by the spirit of the law, people think God wants us to deny the law.

So modern Christians do not accept God as their God but when they accept Christ and are led by Him they seem to toss out the Father. It is an inheritance they have from idol worship, where this was routine with the pagan gods. When the gentiles took over from Jewish leaders of Christianity they worked in a lot of ideas from the paganism they had grown up in and the church still reflects this today. Our world is filled with it, even the names of our week and months are from paganism. Our celebrations are all from the pagan world that these men Christianized.
no, you do not take the Word of God the Father. God the Father said of the Son, on the mount of transfiguration , " this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, hear Him!

this elevates and seperates the words in red over the rest of Scripture.

you and the other judeaizers insist on hearing the words of the Father at Sinai. you do not obey the Father and hear the Son, who says to believe in Him for eternal life.
not keep the Law for eternal life.
Are you actually saying that "listen to Christ" means to don't listen to the Father?

Do you think that the God who saved the Son now has all His words put down, that now the Son is elevated above the Son? And all this based on that God said of the Son "I am well pleased"? What about the entire book of Psalms that explains who and what the Father is. Do you believe we must get rid of the Psalms now so Christ can be elevated and what the Psalms tells us of the Father is no longer so?

Christ said of Moses that he spoke of Christ and if we believe in Moses we would believe in Christ. You say you believe in Christ but don't listen to Moses. You say you believe in Christ, and Christ is the Son of the Father. Would it be possible for Christ who did not sin to sinfully not honor the Father? Or ever teach us not to honor God? How can you accept what Christ did for us and not accept the salvation that comes from the Father through Christ? How can you repeat the Lord's prayer in which Christ asked us to pray to the Father yet you deny the Father? How can you accept salvation from the Father through Christ that would lead to your receiving the spirit of God within you and deny God as the Father? Read Romans, especially the 8th chapter. This is what you are missing as you deny God, saying the Son has taken His place.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,496
9,194
113
54
#52
So, when we bring in other requirements such as keeping the Sabbath on Saturday, the ten commandments, abstaining from certain foods, etc., then we are trying to do what Israel did and is doing, i.e. attempting to obtain salvation by our own efforts.
Romans 10:1 - Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,707
3,657
113
#53
God said to hear Christ. Christ told us that He is one with the Father, and they are in agreement. When you tell me I do not take the word of God, I am assuming that you object to m6y listening to God the Father as well as God the Son. When we are told to hear Christ by God the Father, it is not telling us to not hear God the Father because we hear the Son. They give the same message.

Although God the Father is, in fact, the Father. It was the Father who raised the Son from the grave, the Son did not raise Himself.

The Son told us that He did not change anything of the Father.

There seems to be a misunderstanding in our modern day church about scripture for all words of the NT is accepted but every bit of the words God gave us before Christ is questioned. I believe it is because they include instructions that helped the Hebrews live according to law. There is also misunderstanding about the new covenant, for when we were given the Holy Spirit to guide us instead of the rituals people don't seem to be able to tell what the Holy Spirit replaced. Also, we are to die with Christ, to join Christ and accept that He paid for our sins. As we put on the spirit of God and Christ and accept this spirit in how we live there seems to be a misunderstanding that as legalism is gone to be replaced by the spirit of the law, people think God wants us to deny the law.

So modern Christians do not accept God as their God but when they accept Christ and are led by Him they seem to toss out the Father. It is an inheritance they have from idol worship, where this was routine with the pagan gods. When the gentiles took over from Jewish leaders of Christianity they worked in a lot of ideas from the paganism they had grown up in and the church still reflects this today. Our world is filled with it, even the names of our week and months are from paganism. Our celebrations are all from the pagan world that these men Christianized.
Are you actually saying that "listen to Christ" means to don't listen to the Father?

Do you think that the God who saved the Son now has all His words put down, that now the Son is elevated above the Son? And all this based on that God said of the Son "I am well pleased"? What about the entire book of Psalms that explains who and what the Father is. Do you believe we must get rid of the Psalms now so Christ can be elevated and what the Psalms tells us of the Father is no longer so?

Christ said of Moses that he spoke of Christ and if we believe in Moses we would believe in Christ. You say you believe in Christ but don't listen to Moses. You say you believe in Christ, and Christ is the Son of the Father. Would it be possible for Christ who did not sin to sinfully not honor the Father? Or ever teach us not to honor God? How can you accept what Christ did for us and not accept the salvation that comes from the Father through Christ? How can you repeat the Lord's prayer in which Christ asked us to pray to the Father yet you deny the Father? How can you accept salvation from the Father through Christ that would lead to your receiving the spirit of God within you and deny God as the Father? Read Romans, especially the 8th chapter. This is what you are missing as you deny God, saying the Son has taken His place.
you recommend Romans 8. how about this- I have read the Bible through , about 20 times. I know what it says, and what it does not say.

gentiles were never under the Law. and we are saved by belief and faith in Christ. nothing else.

and, Christ gave us plenty of instructions to obey. that should be our goal.
 
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you recommend Romans 8. how about this- I have read the Bible through , about 20 times. I know what it says, and what it does not say.

gentiles were never under the Law. and we are saved by belief and faith in Christ. nothing else.

and, Christ gave us plenty of instructions to obey. that should be our goal.
Romans 3 shows that both Jews and gentiles are under the curse of the law, but salvation in Christ negates the force of that law . . . (Romans 7).
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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#55
Paul tells us we are to die with Christ, so as Christ died for our sin so do we.

As forgiven and righteous humans through Christ, we are to now obey law in spirit rather than just legalistically. It is explained thoroughly in Romans 6 through 8. In the gospels we are given a vivid picture of a man all dressed in old clothes parading the streets to announce that he is in prayer and told that isn't the way.

Based on this, the church has tossed out a lot of the OT like the feasts. They have taken celebrations given the world by demons originally and changing the meaning of them to reflect Christianity. All the rituals that were given Israel to help them live according to God's plan were tossed. Paul tells us to listen to the Holy Spirit instead, so we are to do what circumcision and eating only clean food was to lead to without the guidance of the rituals.

At the same time, Christ told us He and the Father were one, they are in complete agreement.

So what does God want us to obey and what to toss of commands God gives in His word.

Please don't do that old idea that scripture was written for Jews, gentiles aren't to listen to God. In this thread, how about accepting that God created us all and speaks to us all, not just to Jews.
None of them should be tossed out. I'm thinking of Psalm 19 where it says things like the law of the Lord is perfect rejoicing the heart.

Who doesn't want a rejoiced heart?

And they should all be fulfilled by loving our neighbor as ourselves.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#56
No laws in the OT should be tossed out.

Everyone should try to obey them perfectly, to the letter. All of them.

When you find you are not able then you can come to Christ and receive Rest. Then you can become a Child of God by faith in Christ and follow the REAL law and not the one you THINK you know.

Until a person calls out to Christ they cannot be convinced that their understanding is somehow lacking.

Ephesians 1:17-23
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
 
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Everyone should try to obey them perfectly, to the letter. All of them.


Ephesians 1:17-23
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Where in the passage you post shows that a blood-bought believer is adjured to keep the law 'perfectly'?

My reading shows that it is Jesus Christ that is the 'power to us-ward' and had kept the requirements of the law for us, which is why we are not seated in heavenly places IN Christ Jesus. Verse 21 screams of eternal salvation . . . because it is directed to those that believe.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
gross misuse of the greek word "telos"

The word translated “end” is word#G5056, τέλος, telos, tel'-os

From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.



Lets look at places this word is used in the Konie Greek originals to get an idea of it meaning and context;



Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."



1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

1 Peter 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith – the salvation of your souls."



If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away or at an end in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away or at an end in 1 Peter 1:9. Unless of course “telos” means the goal.



Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #G5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.



James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”

James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose (telos) of יהוה, that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”




1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end (telos) of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”

1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the goal (telos) of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief.”



Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.



Romans 6:22, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end (telos) everlasting life.”

Romans 6:22, “But now, having been set free from sin, and having become servants of Yah, you have your fruit resulting in set-apartness, and the goal (telos); everlasting life.”



Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."



The word is used in the sense of the end result, the goal, the outcome, not in the sense of the obliteration of the Law…

*goal is word #G5056 télos - Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#59
Romans 3 shows that both Jews and gentiles are under the curse of the law, but salvation in Christ negates the force of that law . . . (Romans 7).
The curse of the law is NOT the law itself. The curse of the law is death that comes to us without Christ. God gives us salvation through Christ's giving Himself for our sins.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#60
The curse of the law is NOT the law itself. The curse of the law is death that comes to us without Christ. God gives us salvation through Christ's giving Himself for our sins.
I agree and want to add:


The “curse of the Law” is receiving death for sin worthy of death. Yahshua/Jesus took that curse upon Himself for all those in Him.

1 John 5:17, “All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death.”

Deuteronomy 21:22-23, “And when a man has committed a sin worthy of death, then he shall be put to death and you shall hang him on a tree. Let his body not remain overnight on the tree, for you shall certainly bury him the same day – for he who is hanged is accursed of Yah – so that you do not defile the land which יהוה your Strength is giving you as an inheritance.”

Ezekiel 18:20-21, "18:20, "“The being who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the crookedness of the father, nor the father bear the crookedness of the son. The righteousness of the righteous is upon himself, and the wrongness of the wrong is upon himself."18:21, "“But the wrong,a if he turns from all his sins which he has done, and he shall guard all My laws, and shall do right-ruling and righteousness, he shall certainly live, he shall not die. Footnote: aSimilar passages in Eze 3:18-21, Eze 33:8-20."

Galatians 3:10-14, “10, "For as many as are of works of Torah are under the curse, for it has been written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all that has been written in the Book of the Torah, to do them.” (Deut 27:26) 11, "And that no one is declared right by Torah before YHWH is clear, for “The righteous shall live by belief. (Hab 2:4)” 12, "And the Torah is not of belief, but “The man who does them shall live by them, (Leviticus 18:5)” 13, "Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the Torah, having become a curse for us – for it has been written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs upon a tree.” – (Deut 21:23) 14, "in order that the blessing of Aḇraham might come upon the nations in Messiah יהושע, to receive the promise of the Spirit through belief."

Galatians 3:13,(KJV) "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law (death), being made a curse for us, for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangeth on a tree."

1 Peter 2:24, "who Himself bore our sins in His body on the timber, so that we, having died to sins, might live unto righteousness, by whose stripes you were healed.”

Isaiah 53:4-5, “Truly, He has borne our sicknesses and carried our pains. Yet we reckoned Him smitten·, stricken by YHWH, and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our crookedness. The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.”

1 Peter 4:1-2, "Therefore, since Messiah suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so that he no longer lives the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but according to the desire of YHWH."

Deuteronomy 27:26, “Cursed is he who does not establish the Words of this Torah.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Awmĕin!”