What laws given in the OT should be tossed out?

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Sep 9, 2018
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#61
The curse of the law is NOT the law itself. The curse of the law is death that comes to us without Christ. God gives us salvation through Christ's giving Himself for our sins.
??? . . . At any rate you believe that gentiles were never under the Law. Romans 3 blows that to pieces.

"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin . . .
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:9, 19-20).

How do the Gentiles have any concept of sin?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#62
anyone Hebrew or Gentile that followed YHWH was to follow His Law:

Numbers 15:15-16, “One law is for you of the assembly and for the stranger who sojourns with you – a law forever throughout your generations. As you are, so is the stranger before יהוה. One Torah and one right-ruling is for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”

Exodus 12:47-49, “All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the Passover to יהוה, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. One law shall be to him that is nativeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourns among you.”

However Gentiles that are not partaking of the Passover/not a part of the Covenant would not know the Way.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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#63
we, my wife and myself, only desire to follow our Holy Saviour and His ways...
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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#64
Most people do not know what the law is. It is scattered through the Torah. Here is a list of them. Notice the list divides them first into the do's and don'ts. Then they are further divided as to who they apply to. Some are only applicable to men or women. Some are only for in Israel.

In addition to the 10 commandments there are the laws scattered through the Torah. Maimonides counted and documented them. No one has found any more.

The 613 laws of God.
https://www.gospeloutreach.net/613laws.html

Discussion of the 613 laws of God
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#65
Where in the passage you post shows that a blood-bought believer is adjured to keep the law 'perfectly'?

My reading shows that it is Jesus Christ that is the 'power to us-ward' and had kept the requirements of the law for us, which is why we are not seated in heavenly places IN Christ Jesus. Verse 21 screams of eternal salvation . . . because it is directed to those that believe.
What I posted shows what a blood-bought believer can have after trying to obey the law perfectly and finding out that they can't.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That's the standard for law keeping. Perfection. Falling short of that is sin.
 
Sep 9, 2018
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#66
What I posted shows what a blood-bought believer can have after trying to obey the law perfectly and finding out that they can't.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That's the standard for law keeping. Perfection. Falling short of that is sin.
"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily" (Colossians 1:26-29).

Thankfully, when God looks down and sees me . . . He doesn't see me at all. He sees the blood covering of my perfect sacrifice which cries out 'Paid in Full!'

Our flesh is a vile thing and will never fully surrender to the ideal of holiness, but think about this passage:

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (I John 3:7-9).

Is God's Word lying which it says that the born again believer doesn't sin? Or could there be a place in the trinity of man where this is true?
 

DustyRhodes

Senior Member
Dec 30, 2016
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#67
The new covenant is rooted and blossoms from the old.
That's exactly how it goes. However we do not observe the old law
as scripture says, if Christians observe the old law, Christ is of no
value to them.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#68
It would serve even better to ask which laws should remain, and those would be any that fall in the construct of Love........God is love. As for tossing out any laws....most if not all that are not remaining are being fulfilled by Jesus Christ, and, believe it or not, by us.......
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#69
gross misuse of the greek word "telos"

The word translated “end” is word#G5056, τέλος, telos, tel'-os

From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.
Strong's Concordance #5056 telos
telos: an end, a toll
Original Word: τέλος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: telos
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-os)
Short Definition: an end, purpose, tax

Definition: (a) an end, (b) event or issue, (c) the principal end, aim, purpose, (d) a tax.
HELPS Word-studies
5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

The Mosaic Law has reached it's goal in Christ. We are not under the Law, but under grace and the demands of the Law have been fully met in the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is the goal or end of the Law "for righteousness" for all who believe/trust in Him for salvation.

Romans 10:4 (AMP) - For Christ is the end of the Law [it leads to Him and its purpose is fulfilled in Him], for [granting] righteousness to everyone who believes [in Him as Savior].

Romans 10:4 (AMPC) - For Christ is the end of the Law [the limit at which it ceases to be, for the Law leads up to Him Who is the fulfillment of its types, and in Him the purpose which it was designed to accomplish is fulfilled. That is, the purpose of the Law is fulfilled in Him] as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him.

Romans 3:28 - For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Galatians 2:16 - nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 3:24 - Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#70
Strong's Concordance #5056 telos
telos: an end, a toll
Original Word: τέλος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: telos
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-os)
Short Definition: an end, purpose, tax

Definition: (a) an end, (b) event or issue, (c) the principal end, aim, purpose, (d) a tax.
HELPS Word-studies
5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

The Mosaic Law has reached it's goal in Christ. We are not under the Law, but under grace and the demands of the Law have been fully met in the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is the goal or end of the Law "for righteousness" for all who believe/trust in Him for salvation.

Romans 10:4 (AMP) - For Christ is the end of the Law [it leads to Him and its purpose is fulfilled in Him], for [granting] righteousness to everyone who believes [in Him as Savior].

Romans 10:4 (AMPC) - For Christ is the end of the Law [the limit at which it ceases to be, for the Law leads up to Him Who is the fulfillment of its types, and in Him the purpose which it was designed to accomplish is fulfilled. That is, the purpose of the Law is fulfilled in Him] as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him.

Romans 3:28 - For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Galatians 2:16 - nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 3:24 - Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Except if it means "end" in Romans 10:4 then it also means end here:

James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”

James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose (telos) of יהוה, that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”

Also I believe the Messiah:

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”





gross misuse of the greek word "telos"

The word translated “end” is word#G5056, τέλος, telos, tel'-os

From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.



Lets look at places this word is used in the Konie Greek originals to get an idea of it meaning and context;



Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."



1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

1 Peter 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith – the salvation of your souls."



If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away or at an end in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away or at an end in 1 Peter 1:9. Unless of course “telos” means the goal.



Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #G5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.



James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”

James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose (telos) of יהוה, that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”



1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end (telos) of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”

1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the goal (telos) of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief.”



Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.



Romans 6:22, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end (telos) everlasting life.”

Romans 6:22, “But now, having been set free from sin, and having become servants of Yah, you have your fruit resulting in set-apartness, and the goal (telos); everlasting life.”



Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."



The word is used in the sense of the end result, the goal, the outcome, not in the sense of the obliteration of the Law…

*goal is word #G5056 télos - Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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#71
"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily" (Colossians 1:26-29).

Thankfully, when God looks down and sees me . . . He doesn't see me at all. He sees the blood covering of my perfect sacrifice which cries out 'Paid in Full!'

Our flesh is a vile thing and will never fully surrender to the ideal of holiness, but think about this passage:

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (I John 3:7-9).

Is God's Word lying which it says that the born again believer doesn't sin? Or could there be a place in the trinity of man where this is true?
You obviously don't understand the issue. We all sin and come short of the glory of God.
Strong's Concordance #5056 telos
telos: an end, a toll
Original Word: τέλος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: telos
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-os)
Short Definition: an end, purpose, tax

Definition: (a) an end, (b) event or issue, (c) the principal end, aim, purpose, (d) a tax.
HELPS Word-studies
5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

The Mosaic Law has reached it's goal in Christ. We are not under the Law, but under grace and the demands of the Law have been fully met in the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is the goal or end of the Law "for righteousness" for all who believe/trust in Him for salvation.

Romans 10:4 (AMP) - For Christ is the end of the Law [it leads to Him and its purpose is fulfilled in Him], for [granting] righteousness to everyone who believes [in Him as Savior].

Romans 10:4 (AMPC) - For Christ is the end of the Law [the limit at which it ceases to be, for the Law leads up to Him Who is the fulfillment of its types, and in Him the purpose which it was designed to accomplish is fulfilled. That is, the purpose of the Law is fulfilled in Him] as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him.

Romans 3:28 - For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Galatians 2:16 - nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 3:24 - Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
I suggest you go with what Jesus said.

Matthew 5 NIV
The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the tearchers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

This means we are all under the law. Sin is breaking the law! Thanks for the grace through faith in Jesus we have the penalty for transgressing the law removed from us. Thus at judgement time God sees us through the blood of Jesus. Those who reject Jesus God will judge them by the law. Woe to them. On a political forum I deal with some atheists and they ridicule the concept of God. I point out to them the universe is expanding therefore has a begining. Big bang evolution violates 5 seperate scientific laws. They just ignore the fact that science supports God. Unless they change their mind they will face God's wrath.
 
Sep 9, 2018
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#72
You obviously don't understand the issue. We all sin and come short of the glory of God.

I suggest you go with what Jesus said.
Jesus was a 'minister of the old covenant' . . . I follow Paul if I wish to know what is what under grace.

"Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers"(Romans 15:8)
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#73
Jesus was a 'minister of the old covenant' . . . I follow Paul if I wish to know what is what under grace.

"Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers"(Romans 15:8)
The Messiah's words are for all those who follw the Most High:

2 John 1:9-11,, “Everyone who is transgressing and not staying in the teaching of Messiah does not possess the Mighty One. The one who stays in the teaching of Messiah possesses both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house nor greet him, for he who greets him shares in his wicked works.”

John 14:23-26, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.”

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 – poimén)."

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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#74
Jesus was a 'minister of the old covenant' . . . I follow Paul if I wish to know what is what under grace.

"Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers"(Romans 15:8)
Your theology is corrupted obviously. Jesus said "I and the Father are one." So you are ignoring the fact that Jesus is God. I suggest you read John 1. It has God coming to earth as Jesus. It states the word is God and the word came to earth. The earth was made by him but the people knew it not. But to those who knew him he gave the power to be sons of God. Your assertion belittles the fact that Jesus is God incarnate.
 
Sep 9, 2018
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#75
What do you think 'My Word' is? ANSWER: Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21.

It is to Paul that God delivered the mysteries - and he faithfully reveals them. Thanks, but I'll stick with the epistles.

This does not mean that the Old Testament is no longer valid - it is just that everything we need to know about the Old Testament is contained in the epistles. Not everything is applicable to me as a saint . . . and I don't try to shove verses intended for Israel and force them to apply to the church age.

Thanks for your concern, though.
 
Sep 9, 2018
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#76
Your theology is corrupted obviously. Jesus said "I and the Father are one." So you are ignoring the fact that Jesus is God. I suggest you read John 1. It has God coming to earth as Jesus. It states the word is God and the word came to earth. The earth was made by him but the people knew it not. But to those who knew him he gave the power to be sons of God. Your assertion belittles the fact that Jesus is God incarnate.
You are so busy trying to find fault with my posts that you are now charging me with denying the Deity of Jesus Christ?

For instance, the sermon on the mount hardly applies to our age - but it will come alive during the millennium.
 
Sep 9, 2018
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#77
Your theology is corrupted obviously. Jesus said "I and the Father are one." So you are ignoring the fact that Jesus is God. I suggest you read John 1. It has God coming to earth as Jesus. It states the word is God and the word came to earth. The earth was made by him but the people knew it not. But to those who knew him he gave the power to be sons of God. Your assertion belittles the fact that Jesus is God incarnate.
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (I Timothy 3:16).

If that doesn't prove that Jesus Christ is God I don't know what will.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#78
2 John 1:9-11,, “Everyone who is transgressing and not staying in the teaching of Messiah does not possess the Mighty One. The one who stays in the teaching of Messiah possesses both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house nor greet him, for he who greets him shares in his wicked works.”

John 14:23-26, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.”
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#79
Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#80
This means we are all under the law. Sin is breaking the law! Thanks for the grace through faith in Jesus we have the penalty for transgressing the law removed from us. Thus at judgement time God sees us through the blood of Jesus. Those who reject Jesus God will judge them by the law. Woe to them.
Believers are not under the law, but under grace. Unbelievers will be judged and condemned by the law.