When did (will) Jesus open the first seal in Rev. 6 and what does it represent?

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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You are not trying to correct me, you are trying to correct John.
nonsense
i'm not correcting John; i'm correcting you -- let's recap:

  • John says "none was found worthy"
  • lamad says that means no one was worthy
    • lamad says this means God was not worthy
  • the truth is that God is worthy and is never not worthy
  • the truth is that God hides Himself and reveals Himself
  • the truth is that John says The Worthy One was not found, and then The Worthy One appeared

so you see dear neighbor, what is written is true, but your interpretation is not. your interpretation is blasphemous, because it attributes imperfection to God. i am belaboring the point because fear of God is fundamental to comprehending scripture and it's a fundamental mistake in the pretext underpinning all of your arguments. why should i bother trying to fix the 4th floor while the foundation is bad? so i'm pointing straight at that foundation and can't move on to anything else until it's fixed.


AGain, this does not answer why Jesus was not found in that first search. Since you seem to KNOW that my answer is wrong, please, TELL US WHY!
i told you literally 20 hours ago: see post #138
but you thought the scripture was irrelevant and meaningless.
then i explained it to you bluntly this morning.
why are you still acting like i didn't tell you? why are you still asking? do you still not understand?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Agreed. But somewhere during that "eternal" He came to earth and took on the flesh of man.
do you understand yet why i quoted scripture concerning His appearing?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
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He came to earth and took on the flesh of man
yes, humbling Himself, not becoming unworthy. not ceasing to be I AM.
remember John 8:24 -- same Author as the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
if He was unworthy when He laid down His life, He was a blemished sacrifice, and there is no salvation.
 
Apr 24, 2021
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Revelation 5

1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.


The great question:

2 And I saw a strong angel (an archangel) proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?


No one answered?


There was a large and immense crowd in the heavenly environment

The question was yet sounding to the crowd

verses 11 to 14

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the living beings and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive Power, and Riches, and Wisdom, and Strength, and Honour, and Glory, and Blessing.

13 And
every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and Honor, and Glory, and Power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four living beings said, Amen.
And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever



THE WRONG CONCEPTION OF THE APOSTLE JOHN, THE GUEST
verses 3 and 4

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I -JOHN- wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.


John wept much because he thought that no MAN was found worthy to OPEN and to READ the book, neither to look thereon-(verse 3)

VERSE 4 - John, AS A GUEST, in a first moment he did think that "no man was found worthy to open the book and breaks up its seven seals, neither to look thereon" ; for the Apostle John, even Jesus would not go to open the book and reveal the secrets that were described therein. But one of the elders took care to undo this misperception of the Apostle, as we can see in verses 5 and 6 which explains this by itself, as follows:

5 And one of the elders saith unto John, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.


THE EYES OF JOHN WERE OPENED BY ONE OF THE ELDERS, THEN HE SAW THE LAMB - JESUS

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four living beings , and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four living beings and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors,
which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 
Apr 24, 2021
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P.S. - Regarding the message above

Ezekiel the prophet, did see the book-Ezekiel 2:v.8-10- and did know that therein were lamentations, and mourning, and woes, but he did not know what kind of happenings or events, or punishments, would happen in the world in this present time.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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THE EYES OF JOHN WERE OPENED BY ONE OF THE ELDERS, THEN HE SAW THE LAMB - JESUS
the narrative of this part of the vision is not unlike being born again and finally being able to see the Kingdom of Heaven, isn't it?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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He came to earth and took on the flesh of man
He is a God who hides Himself and reveals Himself.
in John 5 we have Him being not-found and then we have Him being found.
remember why He taught in parables? remember why blindness in part had is come over Israel?
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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So WHY was He not found?
Because he wasn't in the 3 places they searched. But he showed up very quickly and the seals were opened.

That is the question He asked me?

The answer is simple, NO MAN was worthy - including Jesus
That's just plain dumb. Jesus was not unworthy and then magically a second later he was.
Would he have been worthy to take the book and open the seals when He was a baby? NO! He had to become the Redeemer first.
That's a baseless point to make. The search for a worthy person to open the seals took place after Christ's death.


Christ has always been "somewhere." Ascending during that search does not fit the script.
Yes it does.
 

lamad

Active member
Apr 14, 2021
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it says "none" not "no man"

and the important thing is "found" -- because it's God and God alone who is worthy.

it's really clear that you don't have a clue, while you keep saying God is unworthy.

maybe go meditate in tongues some more..? i dunno m8 it ain't proving fruitful to try to correct you.
You can read it in every English translation and it is going to say basically the same thing: JESUS was not found to be worthy to take the book and open the seals in that first search. That is why John wept. That search ended in failure.

You have wasted a whole day arguing against a scripture, and at the end of the day, it says the same thing. Why not just believe what John wrote and try to answer the question: WHY was Jesus not found it that first search?
You have sidestepped this question all day long. These verses will say the same thing tomorrow.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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Because he wasn't in the 3 places they searched. But he showed up very quickly and the seals were opened.

That is the question He asked me?

That's just plain dumb. Jesus was not unworthy and then magically a second later he was.

Yes it does.
The question Jesus asked me was "Why was I not found worthy in that first search?" It is a simple question.

Question: was there a second BEFORE Christ rose from the dead, and then another second when He did?
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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He is a God who hides Himself and reveals Himself.
in John 5 we have Him being not-found and then we have Him being found.
remember why He taught in parables? remember why blindness in part had is come over Israel?
So you think the SON of God was hiding when an ANGEL from God was sent by God to find someone worthy to open the seals? I think not. That is not the reason why He was not found.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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Please, tell us a place not covered in those three places where MEN are found?
Above the Earth. That's where Jesus was. He was not in the Earth, under the Earth or in heaven at that specific time.

BTW, how many MEN are found under the Earth who are capable of opening seals??
 
Apr 24, 2021
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the narrative of this part of the vision is not unlike being born again and finally being able to see the Kingdom of Heaven, isn't it?
I think It can be similar , but it may be also something more deep and linked, for example, to the mystery of our current resurrection in Christ.

The event showed to John takes place in the third heaven that will be established in this current millennium. Luke 20:v.35-36 show us how is the third heaven-check it out.



Colossians 3:v.1 to 4

1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall APPEAR, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.




Ephesians 2:v.4 to 10

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come (this time arrived) he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


The subject is abundant as you can see, for example, in Ephesians 1:v.3 to 23, among others Scriptures.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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JESUS was not found to be worthy

that's not what it says.

it says The Worthy One was not found. then He was.
the God who hides Himself and reveals Himself to whom He chooses was hidden, then revealed.
it says that when John heard and believed, he saw that He was in the midst of the whole throne room and everyone in it,

even the throne itself.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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an ANGEL from God was sent by God to find someone worthy to open the seals?
which verse says God sent angels out to look for Himself?
was God lost?

why does Michael throw the Dragon out of heaven? why does God allow a war in heaven?
Jesus can banish him by simply saying a word. why send Michael?
 
Apr 24, 2021
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that's not what it says.

it says The Worthy One was not found. then He was.
the God who hides Himself and reveals Himself to whom He chooses was hidden, then revealed.
it says that when John heard and believed, he saw that He was in the midst of the whole throne room and everyone in it,
even the throne itself.
Yes, John confessed that he wept much, because when the angel made the question to the crowd no one manifested himself as being worthy for.

THE GREAT QUESTION


Rev. 5:v.2

John AS A GUEST in the third heaven, he saw a strong angel (an Archangel) proclaiming with a loud voice in the midst of the great heavenly multitude, saying: "Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?" JESUS, crowned as King of kings and Lord of Lords was sat on the throne looking the celestial multitude and the sealed book.

No one from the heavenly crowd , yeah, no one there, presented himself as if he was able to open the book. No one of the multitude answer the question of the strong angel, there was a total silence.

Actually, with this question the strong angel of the Lord (an Archangel) wanted to tell to the great heavenly crowd if there was anyone worthy to open the book and break their seven seals besides JESUS. No one of the multitude answer the question. The silence was total. It was it.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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nonsense
i'm not correcting John; i'm correcting you -- let's recap:

  • John says "none was found worthy"
  • lamad says that means no one was worthy
    • lamad says this means God was not worthy
  • the truth is that God is worthy and is never not worthy
  • the truth is that God hides Himself and reveals Himself
  • the truth is that John says The Worthy One was not found, and then The Worthy One appeared

so you see dear neighbor, what is written is true, but your interpretation is not. your interpretation is blasphemous, because it attributes imperfection to God. i am belaboring the point because fear of God is fundamental to comprehending scripture and it's a fundamental mistake in the pretext underpinning all of your arguments. why should i bother trying to fix the 4th floor while the foundation is bad? so i'm pointing straight at that foundation and can't move on to anything else until it's fixed.




i told you literally 20 hours ago: see post #138
but you thought the scripture was irrelevant and meaningless.
then i explained it to you bluntly this morning.
why are you still acting like i didn't tell you? why are you still asking? do you still not understand?[/QUOTE]

Since it was the man / God - Jesus Christ - who was found worthy LATER (time passed) And since John said of that first search, "no man was found worthy" (to take the book and open the scrolls,") It is showing us that at that point in time, Jesus was not worthy to take the book and open the scrolls. It is simple logic. Jesus NOT found worthy, then Jesus FOUND worthy. He asked me "WHY was I not found worthy in that first search." This is Jesus Christ, the head of the church saying that He was not found worthy in that first search and asking me why. And that is what John wrote: no man (includes Jesus Christ) in heaven, on earth and under the earth was found worthy (to take the book and open the seals.)

You can argue against John and the Holy Spirit "till the cows come home" and you will still be mistaken. It is a truth of scripture: Jesus Christ, the Redeemer, was not found as a man worthy to take the book and open the seals in that first search.

You say God is never "not worthy" but you left off "to take the book and open the seals." We are talking about a very specific worthiness. Why is it so difficult for you to believe John?

NOw for your red herrings:

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour. [This is truth, but it does not explain why Jesus was not found in that first search. This is a "red herring," or a distractor.}

Isa 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. [This is truth: God is a self revealing God: If He did not reveal Himself to us, we would know NOTHING of Him. But this also is a red herring, or distractor that does not answer the question as to WHY Jesus was not found worthy in that first search.]


Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
[Another red herring or distractor: a good verse and truth, but does not answer the question as to WHY Jesus was not found in that first search.]

Luk 2:11 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
[Yet another distractor. We all know Jesus was born and was a Savior. But who could He save as a baby? Paul's gospel, the very gospel by which we will be judged is about how "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. Another question remains to be answered: Could the baby Jesus "save us?" The answer is a resounding NO! WE are saved by Grace through our faith in His death and resurrection. Jesus was called "the redeemer" in the Old Testament, but that was looking forward to His death and resurrection. Remember Paul's words: " if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. " ]

So NONE Of these scriptures answers the simple question, why was Jesus not found worthy to take the book in that FIRST search? If we read ahead, we can ANSWER this question:

Rev 5:9 Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for [ or because] thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood..."

This was said AFTER He had risen from the dead and ascended back into the throne room. So being slain, and shedding blood was not the end of the story: He did not remain "slain." He arose.

I submit that the reason He was not found worthy in that first search is because our salvation was not completed: He had not risen from the dead at the time of that first search.

(See how easy it is if we just follow the text?)
 

lamad

Active member
Apr 14, 2021
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which verse says God sent angels out to look for Himself?
was God lost?

why does Michael throw the Dragon out of heaven? why does God allow a war in heaven?
Jesus can banish him by simply saying a word. why send Michael?[/QUOTE]
Do you propose that this angel was working ON HIS OWN - that God the Father did not send him?

Are these other questions because you don't know, or just sidestepping the question at hand?
Why the war in heaven? Its very simple: Satan had been the god of this world since Adam. HOW did He become that? He usurped Adams 6000 year lease and the authority and dominion that came with that lease. The war came because Adam's 6000 year lease EXPIRED and suddenly Satan, the devil, and NO MORE LEGAL HOLD to earth or the heavens above the earth.

You will have to ask God why He chose an angel war.