When Is It NOT Okay To Go To Church?

Enow · Dec 30, 2012

Scriptures backed them up, brother. Surely you know that it is a departure from faith to resort to your own power in living the christian life and chase after other gods?

By His grace & His help, I can give the scriptures that reproves the two movements.

If you didn't take pause for the reproofs given towards the messages you were posting about, then aren't you being like the ones that do not listen?

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

All you had to do was show how or why the reproofs do not apply and why the messages are supported by scripture, but instead, you seem to be offended. I hope I am wrong, but if you expect churches that are settled in their ways to take pause and re-examine themselves according to the scripture, then you have to be open to the Good Shepherd to lead by example as well.. just as I do, by His grace and by His help.

Galatians 4:16Am I therefore become yourenemy, because I tell you the truth?

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

I am nothing, brother, when it is God that is ministering so I hope I have not offended you but I hope He has given you pause for consideration & a need for discernment on those past events so as to know good & evil as a guide for any possible future events.

nathan3 · Dec 31, 2012

Enow said:

[size=+2]I personally wouldn't go to a church that is heading for apostasy .I won't donate a tithe to a church that doesn't have time to teach God's Bible. This can take on different forms. I can talk to them, but I'm not going to try to enter into an agreement with anyone there. Try to reason with them in scriptures. If not then what more can you do ? Look: Revelation Chapter 2: 13

I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

I was taught : This verse looks forward to the future , were it mentions Satan . The mention of Balaam, has to be saying this Church is really in it for the money , Rather then teaching God's Word. They don't care about how the Bible is taught as long as they get money. God had to use a animal to talk to Balaam to stop him from collecting money. Sad when He had to use an animal to talk to a priest''. And Christ said he has something against that. Sooo.

Matthew 7:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.[/size]

If you want to talk more about it, send a message to the inbox. have a good New Years

kenisyes · Dec 31, 2012

Not everyone is called to the same ministry. I learned a long time ago that some people need certain teaching because they are called to certain things. That's why I tried to give you the quick answer. I can see your call is different.

Have I copied your "reproofs" correctly?:
Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

There may be many steps to this procedure. Transforming the churches is only one. Transforming the Church, and then the world, is part of it too.

Since keeping the faith is the good fight, then we do so by the scripture.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

As my experiences prove.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

ALL good works, not merely those you have known personally.

So I am not sure the messages given in those two incidents are what God would give, brother.

That's what my response was aimed at. You don't have to be sure. I do. And I am.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Wonderful. I'm glad you are doing this.

Your more recent post:
Scriptures backed them up, brother. Surely you know that it is a departure from faith to resort to your own power in living the christian life and chase after other gods? By His grace & His help, I can give the scriptures that reproves the two movements.
If you want to discuss it, please do so. I see no reason that Christians should not want to take back their cities for God.

If you didn't take pause for the reproofs given towards the messages you were posting about, then aren't you being like the ones that do not listen?
My wife and I searched Scripture for our whole lives. Pause was taken, just not last night.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

So, we should forbid anyone else from coming along the path of the child to become a man, because we have already reached it?

All you had to do was show how or why the reproofs do not apply and why the messages are supported by scripture, but instead, you seem to be offended. I hope I am wrong, but if you expect churches that are settled in their ways to take pause and re-examine themselves according to the scripture, then you have to be open to the Good Shepherd to lead by example as well.. just as I do, by His grace and by His help.

I had hoped you would hear it from Him, since it is "as you do also, by His grace and help". I do not expect "churches that are settled in THEIR ways" to do anything, except maybe try to stop God's work. I expect to do and say what God asks me to. Go back to your basic Luke 9:1-6 and the other parallel passages. Nothing about arguing over the message, nothing about expecting to be accepted. Just take your message, speak it, and let God do the miracles to confirm it. The people that these 12+70 reached were the ones Jesus multiplied the bread and fishes for. Then they all walked away, when He started talking about eating His body. He almost sounds depressed when He says "will you also leave". If God did miracles of destruction in part of my life, that might be the confirmation they needed; that's what I was asked about. He also did miracles of salvations and healings.

Galatians 4:16Am I therefore become yourenemy, because I tell you the truth?

You're not my enemy. You are a fellow-laborer, with a different call, just like your next quote says.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

I am nothing, brother, when it is God that is ministering so I hope I have not offended you but I hope He has given you pause for consideration & a need for discernment on those past events so as to know good & evil as a guide for any possible future events.

Nor am I "anything". And I suspect there is much more we can share.

gb9 · Dec 31, 2012

hey enow, on my other post about the pastor at my former Church preaching that God would destroy america if we did not vote right, i did not mean one sermon. i meant a 10 week series leading up to election day.

Enow · Dec 31, 2012

nathan3 said:

I do wonder if tithing isn't proof that the church is more in it for the money than God's words when tithing is not taught to the early churches to do?

2 Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

I take that verse 6 as meaning that since it is God that is ministering, He will provide exactly what He needs for what He is doing through that assembly.

7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Verse 7 means tithing is not in place because tithing mean a necessity to give. That would avoid forcing anyone to give grudgingly, especially in these hard economic times.

8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Again, in connecting to verse 6, it is God that is providing and the church should not be looking to members in needing them to give.

9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.

Since it is His righteousness and not our righteousness, believers need to see that He is faithful in providing for the poor.

10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness

God is the One giving seed to the sower and water to the waterer that ministers to our growth in bearing fruit as His disciples.

11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.

Herein is the true motivation for giving from any church member, but again, as he desire to as the Lord loves a cheerful giver.

12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;

So the church needs to focus on the Word of God to edify the body of believers so that they will have a desire & cheerful heart to give, and not rely on "tithing" and thus looking to believers to give out of necessity.

I reckon that if a church had alot of members, they would become complacent and soft pedal everything to not offend anyone, looking the other way when believers are knowingly living in sin or in error, and rests in their laurels as if they do not need anything from God as long as the members are under the necessity to tithe., and thus becoming Laodiceans.

I reckon by doing away with tithing, they may look to Him to help them minister properly so that God would raise up cheerful givers whom are bearing fruit as His disciples.

If the ministers lead by examples, then so would the congregation in that reference below.

1 Timothy 6: Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

How many members are tithing but have no exorbibant pension & retirement plan as the pastor does? How is that trusting God for tomorrow & yet at the expense of the poor?

Seems an awful lot of churches need a reality check here in these latter days.

Something worth considering here with His help in discernment, brother, nathan3.

Enow · Dec 31, 2012

kenisyes said:

It is, still I lean on Him as my Good Shepherd to do it because I am a "wimp" so to speak.

How then can you know if a church is transformed enough to transform the world? Isn't "whomever" that is putting that message to you, putting the cart before the horse? By that reasoning you have given, doesn't that prove that the churches needed to be transformed first as they were lacking to transform the world? Doesn't that lead you to not believe every spirit but test them by the Word of God that maybe that message wasn't from Him?

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I have to take my experiences by the Word of God. Believers should not be trying to interpret their experiences as being of God or wanting to believe that it is of God by fitting it inbetween the lines in the scripture while ignoring the rest of scripture that plainly reproves such interpreation.

Example: my neighbor across the street was in her kitchen reading her Bible when she "felt" the "Holy Spirit" come over her and caused her to speak in tongues. She told me that it was then she was saved because she got it all at once. I had asked her what she was reading that led her to believe in Jesus Christ. She did not know what I had meant, but she went on to testify that she had gone to her pastor and had asked why this had happened to her because she was a believer for a long time. She said her pastor pointed to Acts and said this is what has happened ( of which I assume was Acts 2 when the disciples were waiting around doing nothing in particular when they had received the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost at Pentecost.) Needless to say, the expereince changed her testimony of when she was saved and thus preaching to other believers indirectly that they need that experience to know that they are saved of which I reminded her of the gospel of grace was by believing in Jesus Christ is how anyone is saved and pointed out that she did not test the spirit, but believed it to be of God.

Another relevant example: Then Joyce Meyers on television shared the same experience of the "Holy Spirit" coming over her and causing her to speak in tongues as she interpreted that to mean that was God calling her into the ministry. Even she went on to explain how her tongues can be interpreted by "feeling" what the "Spirit" is trying to say. There is no guessing in interpreting tongues, because God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips as in a foreign language.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Same experience... different meaning... both wanting to believe that it was of God, and thus did not test the spirits by the scripture.

Both are wrong and those spirits were indeed the spirits of the antichrist which was in the world. Both are preaching to receive the Spirit by a sign when believers are to receive Him by faith. Tongues are to serve as a sign towards the unbelievers. Tongues were never meant to serve as a sign to believers.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

These phenomenons leads believers to seek after the Holy Spirit directly and addressing the Spirit directly to come & fall on them to receive after a sign which is akin to what those that seek after familiar spirits do with a supernatural tongue that is vain & profane babblings.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Thus this prophesy has come true:

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

As stated by examples above, we are to test the spirits and not just believe them to be from God.

Then share how the message was given, and did it follow what God led Paul to tell the church to do?

1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

Not without His help.

Perhaps a thread on each of the movement should be done, but basically, men should not be making promises that is for God to keep because if men can make themselves good husbands and good fathers by keeping a promise, then Christ has died in vain, and as for the other, seeking to receive the Holy Spirit "again" and after a sign when they are already believers with Him dwelling within us by faith is an adulterous generation.

Well. This failure would mean the church is yet to be transformed as you have reasoned earlier. God would know that if He really did want them to transform the world around them. What I am seeing is the OT guantlet being given out like unto Nineveh, but when we look at Revelation, God is addressing the churches within to prepare themselves within and to be ready to leave the cares of this life ( Luke 14:15-33) and this world behind (Luke 21:33-36).

Then what have you discerned by these scripture below? How do they not apply?

1) John 18:36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

2) 1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

No. One should consider that they are not perfect yet to call oneself a "man". Paul had not achieved that perfection yet, and neither have I. When we look at men like Calvin and Luther, we can see how they still needed prunings in spite of their messages.

He has led me to those verses for a reason, brother.

I suppose you are having the mentality of Jonah in that you do not expect Nineveh to repent? Since God had to correct Jonah of that mentality, I reckon He would be doing the same towards yours IF He was really sending you to deliver those messages.

Here's another reproof provided by my Good Shepherd for you to take pause again, brother.

Luke 9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

One can say that it only applies to the taking of the lives of the people on the earth, but this message in bringing about the destruction of lives does make one wonder why Jesus simply said for the disciples to leave that city by dusting off their feet. To think of how many cities would have been left in ruin because they did not receive the gospel, let alone heed the correction given to the churches. How is it that the RCC stands? How is it that Rome is around today?

But what I find in Revelations is God's ultimatum for preparing for the Marriage Supper as overshadowing all other extrabiblical ultimatums for anything to do with gaining a prosperous life on earth. Setting our hearts on the things above and not the things of this earth is the call of repenatnce these days and so I have to doubt the origin of those messages as being of Him at all.

Matthew 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I ask you: wouldn't these messages shift a believer's and church's focus to the cares of this life down here to become a primary focus?

I would discern that by the reasoning you had given, taking care of the inside of the church and the inside of the believer would be God's primary wherein there would be no need for an ultimatum for the concerns of their lives around them as being transformed within would serve as that light or beacon to the world around them.

How does one explain the destruction in those isolated incidents and yet not found as occuring everywhere? Could they be coincidences that serve to bolster a undiscernable message that is not being applied to every town nor every church nor every believer? Testing the spirit behind the message is the call here.

These are some points for reconsideration when discernment from Him is needed again.

Enow · Dec 31, 2012

gb9 said:

Okay. Thanks for the clarification. I still see that pastor as worrying too much about things beyond his control, and yet needs to recognize that Jesus is still Lord.

Have you checked up on him to see how he is faring in spite of what he was campaigning for? Maybe a reminder of the truth will confort him and lift his sight higher to the things above where his heart should be.

1 Corinthians 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

kenisyes · Dec 31, 2012

Maybe I just should have stayed with the short answer? These long ones take a lot of work.

How then can you know if a church is transformed enough to transform the world? Isn't "whomever" that is putting that message to you, putting the cart before the horse? By that reasoning you have given, doesn't that prove that the churches needed to be transformed first as they were lacking to transform the world? Doesn't that lead you to not believe every spirit but test them by the Word of God that maybe that message wasn't from Him?

The ones that are ready start doing it. The first case was about transforming the churches, the second about transforming the city. The existence of Sight and Sound in Lancaster proves that some churches are ready. The second case involved churches that were ready, but needed to network. You're assuming that the workers made the decision, they did not. Nor did they just "hear from God". The history was there, showing it had happened in the past, and some of the chruches had plans on the table for doing it, and the commitment to do it. All that was necessary was for the city to allow it, and the churches to join together. Neither would. No one is believing spirits here.

I have to take my experiences by the Word of God. Believers should not be trying to interpret their experiences as being of God or wanting to believe that it is of God by fitting it inbetween the lines in the scripture while ignoring the rest of scripture that plainly reproves such interpreation.

My wife always used to note how every evangelist thinks everyone should be an evangelist. Scripture prepares for EVERY good work. Some Scriptures work better for some works then for others. I Cor. 3: 12-15 describes this building procedure. I Cor. 12:28 tells specifically how the ministries interact to do any new work. Rom. 8:19-23 speaks of the earth waiting for transformation. Jesus says several times how He will do whatever we ask in faith.

Example: my neighbor across the street was in her kitchen reading her Bible when she "felt" the "Holy Spirit" come over her and caused her to speak in tongues. She told me that it was then she was saved because she got it all at once. I had asked her what she was reading that led her to believe in Jesus Christ. She did not know what I had meant, but she went on to testify that she had gone to her pastor and had asked why this had happened to her because she was a believer for a long time. She said her pastor pointed to Acts and said this is what has happened ( of which I assume was Acts 2 when the disciples were waiting around doing nothing in particular when they had received the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost at Pentecost.) Needless to say, the expereince changed her testimony of when she was saved and thus preaching to other believers indirectly that they need that experience to know that they are saved of which I reminded her of the gospel of grace was by believing in Jesus Christ is how anyone is saved and pointed out that she did not test the spirit, but believed it to be of God.

What you describe is a non-sequitur. I'd like to talk to that woman, and get it straightened out. She probably got saved years earlier, and did not call it that, because she was in a different church, that didn't use that term. But I'm just guessing.

Another relevant example: Then Joyce Meyers on television shared the same experience of the "Holy Spirit" coming over her and causing her to speak in tongues as she interpreted that to mean that was God calling her into the ministry. Even she went on to explain how her tongues can be interpreted by "feeling" what the "Spirit" is trying to say. There is no guessing in interpreting tongues, because God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips as in a foreign language.

Are you sure you have that right? The woman might not know better, but Joyce Meyers certainly does. Maybe you are saying that she heard her call to ministry in tongues and then interpreted it? The funny thing is, that Joyce Meyers certainly does have a ministry. One of the biggest in the world. Do you pray in tongues? Do you interpret?

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Same experience... different meaning... both wanting to believe that it was of God, and thus did not test the spirits by the scripture.

Both are wrong and those spirits were indeed the spirits of the antichrist which was in the world. Both are preaching to receive the Spirit by a sign when believers are to receive Him by faith. Tongues are to serve as a sign towards the unbelievers. Tongues were never meant to serve as a sign to believers.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

These phenomenons leads believers to seek after the Holy Spirit directly and addressing the Spirit directly to come & fall on them to receive after a sign which is akin to what those that seek after familiar spirits do with a supernatural tongue that is vain & profane babblings.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Thus this prophesy has come true:

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

As stated by examples above, we are to test the spirits and not just believe them to be from God.

Then share how the message was given, and did it follow what God led Paul to tell the church to do?

1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

Not without His help.

Perhaps a thread on each of the movement should be done, but basically, men should not be making promises that is for God to keep because if men can make themselves good husbands and good fathers by keeping a promise, then Christ has died in vain, and as for the other, seeking to receive the Holy Spirit "again" and after a sign when they are already believers with Him dwelling within us by faith is an adulterous generation.

Four weeks ago there were like four threads on all this. I started one specifically so Zone and I could hash out a lot of this. Bottom line: seven hundred false prophets of Baal does not discredit one Elijah. I'm not saying these things don't happen; but this is not what happened in these cases.

Well. This failure would mean the church is yet to be transformed as you have reasoned earlier. God would know that if He really did want them to transform the world around them. What I am seeing is the OT guantlet being given out like unto Nineveh, but when we look at Revelation, God is addressing the churches within to prepare themselves within and to be ready to leave the cares of this life ( Luke 14:15-33) and this world behind (Luke 21:33-36).

Well. like I said, that was one case. There is a time to reach out, and a time you get your own act together first. If something does not happen, it is not necessarily the case that it was not God's time. It could also be caused by sin.

Then what have you discerned by these scripture below? How do they not apply?

1) John 18:36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Then why have us pray "Thy Kingdom come...on earth, as it is heaven." and why say at the end "The Kingdom of this world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ." Jesus statement was true at the time He said it, and was in answer to why they are not fighting. The rest of the verse says "but NOW my Kingdom is not from here."

Luke 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

This talks about looking for the Christ elsewhere but inside yourselves, not looking for a place where others celebrate Him that you can go to.

2) 1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

This is an answer to the presumption that gain is godliness. Not that we should not express godliness around ourselves.

No. One should consider that they are not perfect yet to call oneself a "man". Paul had not achieved that perfection yet, and neither have I. When we look at men like Calvin and Luther, we can see how they still needed prunings in spite of their messages.

He has led me to those verses for a reason, brother.

Yes, because they are the ones you use to establish your own call for yourself, so you can have the confidence to proceed.

I suppose you are having the mentality of Jonah in that you do not expect Nineveh to repent? Since God had to correct Jonah of that mentality, I reckon He would be doing the same towards yours IF He was really sending you to deliver those messages.

I have no idea what they are going to do, and I'm not watching to find out. If God can get them to repent, that would be great. Why would you even think that?

Here's another reproof provided by my Good Shepherd for you to take pause again, brother.

Luke 9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

I'm reporting the fire, not calling it down.

One can say that it only applies to the taking of the lives of the people on the earth, but this message in bringing about the destruction of lives does make one wonder why Jesus simply said for the disciples to leave that city by dusting off their feet. To think of how many cities would have been left in ruin because they did not receive the gospel, let alone heed the correction given to the churches. How is it that the RCC stands? How is it that Rome is around today?

Weeds and tares. Besides, people still get saved in RCC.

But what I find in Revelations is God's ultimatum for preparing for the Marriage Supper as overshadowing all other extrabiblical ultimatums for anything to do with gaining a prosperous life on earth. Setting our hearts on the things above and not the things of this earth is the call of repenatnce these days and so I have to doubt the origin of those messages as being of Him at all.

Again, this is the difference in calls. Overshadowing is not preventing.

Matthew 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Treasures, not outreaches. You do not have to treasure a work to undertake it.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I ask you: wouldn't these messages shift a believer's and church's focus to the cares of this life down here to become a primary focus?

It would depend on the person's call.

I would discern that by the reasoning you had given, taking care of the inside of the church and the inside of the believer would be God's primary wherein there would be no need for an ultimatum for the concerns of their lives around them as being transformed within would serve as that light or beacon to the world around them.

Primary is not total.

How does one explain the destruction in those isolated incidents and yet not found as occuring everywhere? Could they be coincidences that serve to bolster a undiscernable message that is not being applied to every town nor every church nor every believer? Testing the spirit behind the message is the call here.

In Revelations, 7 churches get 7 different messages. Each town has it's own part to play in the history of God's Kingdom coming on earth.

These are some points for reconsideration when discernment from Him is needed again.
[/quote]

I don't know why you think this discernment never happened.

Enow · Dec 31, 2012

kenisyes said:

Because you reasoned rightly that the inside has to be transformed first before the outside transformation can come. Seeing how the transformation on the outside did not happen, then something had to be lacking on the inside.

Therefore giving messages like that which emphasizes the primary transformation to be taken place on the outside is askewed when God ought to know they were not at that point in His workmanship in them to respond in that manner yet.

The OT would place the emphasis on man to repent and to do good, but the NT places the emphasis on believers in trusting Christ in them to do good in them and to lead them to do good.

The messages would indicate a shift in the paradigm as if God is placing confidence in man again to do His will once they have been given the guantlet or a commandment.

I just can't see Jesus going back to the original emphasis on man in his own power to repent and to do good when He never taught His disciples to do that when preaching Him to the cities because the consequences of that the city for rejecting Him will not be suffering anything less than the judgment given on Sodom & Gomorrah, but moreso, and that is in regards to eternity.

Granted, the severity of that judgment was towards eternity for rejecting Him, but the rejecting of the message which contains a guantlet and a commandment for believers in Jesus Christ to respond to would suggest that the spirit behind the message was not of Him.

In all of the addresses to the seven churches in Revelations, there was a call for self examination and preparedness by going before that throne of grace for help to lay aside every weight and sin to be ready oneself for the Marriage Supper.

There was no call for self examination in looking to Jesus Christ for the help they need to be abiding in Him to be able to respond to such a message.

And the message has not only been delivered as contrary to the primary but that it does not line up with His words about His kingdom not being of this earth for believers to be riled up to overcharge themselves in the cares of this life when obviously, they will be leaving this earth and its cares behind to attend the Marriage Supper.

Sorry, brother. I just can't see how that message would ever be repeated again because nothing like it has ever set forth as precedent in the NT churches nor in Revelations for what all churches down through the ages were to do...which is to be ready to leave this life at any moment when the Bridegroom comes because His kingdom is above after all.

John 18:36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

I do not see Him commanding His disciples to be building His kingdom on the earth when it is the inside that counts first & foremost for anything else to follow as being a light unto the world.

kenisyes · Dec 31, 2012

Enow said:

Because you reasoned rightly that the inside has to be transformed first before the outside transformation can come. Seeing how the transformation on the outside did not happen, then something had to be lacking on the inside.

Willingness to cooperate with the grace that had already been shown they have.

Therefore giving messages like that which emphasizes the primary transformation to be taken place on the outside is askewed when God ought to know they were not at that point in His workmanship in them to respond in that manner yet.

It never was the primary transformation. It was the establishment of a particular form of outreach.

The OT would place the emphasis on man to repent and to do good, but the NT places the emphasis on believers in trusting Christ in them to do good in them and to lead them to do good.

The messages would indicate a shift in the paradigm as if God is placing confidence in man again to do His will once they have been given the guantlet or a commandment.

This is not a commandment to salvation. It's a command to a town to allow churches to work, and a command to churches to act like there is only one Church.

I just can't see Jesus going back to the original emphasis on man in his own power to repent and to do good when He never taught His disciples to do that when preaching Him to the cities because the consequences of that the city for rejecting Him will not be suffering anything less than the judgment given on Sodom & Gomorrah, but moreso, and that is in regards to eternity.

By this will all men know you are my disciples, if you have love one for another. That is the unity. The city did not reject Him, they rejected a project that he wanted to give them. The project had existed before, the city stopped it precisely because the Gospel was being manifested in the downtown by believers, so this was a call for repentance.

Granted, the severity of that judgment was towards eternity for rejecting Him, but the rejecting of the message which contains a guantlet and a commandment for believers in Jesus Christ to respond to would suggest that the spirit behind the message was not of Him.

In all of the addresses to the seven churches in Revelations, there was a call for self examination and preparedness by going before that throne of grace for help to lay aside every weight and sin to be ready oneself for the Marriage Supper.

I used only the fact that there were 7 different calls.

There was no call for self examination in looking to Jesus Christ for the help they need to be abiding in Him to be able to respond to such a message.

There would have been if they would have started praying together.

And the message has not only been delivered as contrary to the primary but that it does not line up with His words about His kingdom not being of this earth for believers to be riled up to overcharge themselves in the cares of this life when obviously, they will be leaving this earth and its cares behind to attend the Marriage Supper.

Sorry, brother. I just can't see how that message would ever be repeated again because nothing like it has ever set forth as precedent in the NT churches nor in Revelations for what all churches down through the ages were to do...which is to be ready to leave this life at any moment when the Bridegroom comes because His kingdom is above after all.

Reasoning backwards, there could never be a Christian business, or even someone who sells used items at the flea market as an excuse to evangelize. Because all this was, was an extension of that.

John 18:36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

So you are saying that the Christian life is limited to church activities and preaching?

I do not see Him commanding His disciples to be building His kingdom on the earth when it is the inside that counts first & foremost for anything else to follow as being a light unto the world.

It's pretty clear you can't see it.

Enow · Jan 1, 2013

kenisyes said:

Nope. I don't. And still don't, brother.

Thanks for sharing a little more of the story, but it only clarifies the cart before the horse scenario again. If the city was responsible for stopping the project, then guess what needed transformation within? Since Jesus said that you cannot serve God and mammon, then evangelizing the city would be paramount: God would not strongarm the city to permit the continuance of the downtown project for worldly gain.

John 18:36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

I do not see Him commanding His disciples to be building His kingdom on the earth when it is the inside that counts first & foremost for anything else to follow as being a light unto the world. God certainly does not endorse that cities & nations are to yield to the pursuits of believers in the secular world when Jesus has been teaching us to expect persecution, defraudment, and tribulation, and to simply leave when they do not hear us.

Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So forgetting the message, from this message above, what would Christ have those believers do when their project was stopped in the downtown area?

kenisyes · Jan 1, 2013

Let's try providing even more detail.

Historically, 3 major denominations had started in this city. One of them maintained a downtown church there. There were two ultra-traditional churches, who believe in absolute separation of church and state, but who believe they had historical grant rights to control the town. There was a Catholic Church, and a Methodist Church that had fought terrific battles for recognition, but by a century ago had been considered equal in importance with the old two. There was an Assembly of God, and a new non-denom. The non-denom established a Christian School and Christian bookstore in a major downtown building. The bookstore grew to a mini-block of five Christian businesses, with people who prayed with and evangelized people. These were the stores persecuted by the two "grant rights" churches, and forced to close. What did they do? The pastors reached retirement age, closed the church, and the school moved outside of town, where it continues to this day. The members went to other churches. The town had been big in manufacturing, but closed the factories in the recessions of the late 1990's. They loved their downtown, but it was falling apart without the economy to support it. They all wanted it revitalized.

By the time the events happened, the downtown had nearly closed, and a tax-supported revitilization effort had begun. The Catholic Church had left. A new Spirit-filled pastor, with a record of phenomenal church growth had taken over the Methodist church. The Assembly of God had built bigger quarters on the edge of town, and a non-denom with a young, forward looking pastor, had taken over the building. A new non-denom had opened and was operating on 25 year old revival prophecies, and was actively doing outreach, and prayer walking. God sent in 6 couples tot he town, and several Christian businessmen who had established new Christian shops. The only question was, would the town permit them to stay, i.e repent of the sin of allowing the two "grant right" churches to control economic policy, or permit the current group of young (Christian) people to build a new economy.

It was a simple case of three contemporary, Spirit-filled churches with one possiblility for city-wide evangelism "against" two right-grants churches that refused to allow preaching in the town, with one original denomination church that would love to be allowed to evangelize again.

All that was necessary was for four pastors, who agreed on the project, to pray together, and for two other pastors to allow God to move.

There were only two blocks - two churches that were adamant that God has no business in the downtown area, and three of four churches that were afraid to do anything public to change it. There was nothing to preach to the two churches (although the six couples all did); they had already decided against permitting the preaching of the Gospel. It was strictly a matter of presenting the decision to the rest of the city, and letting them choose whether or not to permit the Gospel in the town.

The message is simple: "God told you all He wants to save your town. You know the price: let the Gospel be proclaimed in the street."

Of course, there was something wrong in the churches, all but one. And it could all have been solved if the four would have prayed together, because all the resources were there. All they had to do was start joint services with the one church, which had a standing offer every prayer-walk Sunday. Of course something is wrong, with those pastors, for not praying together. Pastors knew better, they did not need to mature, they needed to stand up where God put them instead of running from conflict. The people would have stood up if the pastors did, and more Christian business men would have come in.

This is not rocket science, and we don't need all this abstract theory. You go to the pastors, you network the Christian businesses, you go to the leaders of the downtown revitilization movement, you go to the people in the four churches when you are allowed to, you share the vision (maybe publish a newsletter for free), and you pray. God gives you a time limit (four years), and in this case you get forced out of town, God gives you a better ministry, and their downtown continues to fall apart. God makes sure you hear just enough to know that you heard Him correctly. And they wait 20 years or so for God to try again, while the people in the old churches die, while buildings burn, gangs take over the streets, and the people serious about God drive to the next town, or get on their knees again in the secrecy of their homes.

-------

But in fairness to the CC members who may be following this, I'm going to try to lay out the Scriptures that we are to transform the earth, as part of the Gospel.

It was one of God's first commands to Adam and Eve. Gen 1:28: "replenish and subdue the earth".
We could have done anything, but for His punishment for our sin.Gen, 11:6 "will be restrained from doing nothing they have put their hand to."
He wanted to bless us through our efforts, Dt. 28, most of the chapter, especially vs. 8, "all that you set your hand to", for His glory.
We gave our rights away to Satan (Luke 4:6)
But Jesus earned it back (Rom. 5:17 and other places). The grace applies to all the sin and what it lost. See as Paul goes on:
The earth is groaning in agony, waiting for us to do our job again. (Rom. 8:22)
We have the power promised to shape the earth (Matt. 17:20), multiply food (Matt. 14:16) and the rights to ask for anything (John 15:7)
We are told to pray for His kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven (Matt. 6:10)
The fully empowered among us will one day cause every created thing to sing the glory of Jesus (Rev. 5:13), completing the transformation Paul speaks of in Rom. 8.

You are correct that the means of transforming the earth is by first being transformed ourselves. But transformation of the earth through Christ in us is part of the Gospel. There is nothing wrong with preaching that fact. We are to preach at every opportunity, including these kinds.

By another post two days ago (#16), you said you had once been called to send letters to pastors and take out ads in newspapers. That is one kind of call. This is another. Both are of God, and it's His choice who gets which.

Enow · Jan 30, 2013

kenisyes said:

Was this why there was no agreement among the churches?

2 Corinthians 6:[SUP]14 [/SUP]Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? [SUP]15 [/SUP]And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? [SUP]16 [/SUP]And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

I would have to say that in spite of the outcome, it was still making God look like He was placing a cart before the horse.

By addressing the churches to speak the same thing first and be likeminded in Christ, can one get the unity for getting that approval to preach the gospel downtown.

But I have to say that during this whole topic, I had thought it was about having more christian businesses downtown and not about getting rights to preach the gospel downtown. The right to free speech is protected by the Constititution, and although one needs a temporary permit to do so, one can preach a soapbox format downtown or they can preach individually on the streets without the fanfare and without the permit.

Are you sure that the message was not misunderstood? Surely if one just pushed for more christian businesses downtown, then who is to stop anyone from sharing the gospel in their businesses?

All of this looks rather vain when six couples insists on something wherein everything was looking like the cart before the horse scenario. Maybe they were asking for something more than the usual for the downtown area.

Floppydog · Jan 30, 2013

I am struggling with faith. There are lots of words here and I am by no means an authority on the bible. As far as I am aware God wants us to believe in him, spread his word, love him, worship him and praise him. From my limited knowledge I dont know anywhere in the Bible that says you have to go to church to do these things. God judges us as individuals and notes our sins. Churches are created by man as a centre for worship for like minded people. A manifestation if you like of Gods power and presence. A place for us to focus. I do not believe that it is compulsory.

revbassman2 · Jan 30, 2013

Hebrews 10 :25 Not forsaking the assembling of our selves together . Well we grow faster if we have others to learn from but really we must study the word of God to grow as well. We all need others to help in our faith walks but before you go running around trying to find a good church you must start in the word of God so you will know what they are preachingg is right are not.

kenisyes · Jan 31, 2013

I would have to say that in spite of the outcome, it was still making God look like He was placing a cart before the horse.

If anyone involved ever thought that, they never said it in my hearing.

By addressing the churches to speak the same thing first and be likeminded in Christ, can one get the unity for getting that approval to preach the gospel downtown.

Apaprently not in this case.

But I have to say that during this whole topic, I had thought it was about having more christian businesses downtown and not about getting rights to preach the gospel downtown. The right to free speech is protected by the Constititution, and although one needs a temporary permit to do so, one can preach a soapbox format downtown or they can preach individually on the streets without the fanfare and without the permit.

The former Christian businesses were put out of business by concerted action on the part of the people who did not want their downtown ruined by the preaching of the gospel on a regular basis.

Are you sure that the message was not misunderstood? Surely if one just pushed for more christian businesses downtown, then who is to stop anyone from sharing the gospel in their businesses?

A concerted action of the majority, by refusing to shop there, and petitioning for excessive enforcement of ordinances against those businesses works nicely.

All of this looks rather vain when six couples insists on something wherein everything was looking like the cart before the horse scenario. Maybe they were asking for something more than the usual for the downtown area.

Normally, I would say you are right. However, the vision had been tried 10 years earlier, and failed for the reasons I mentioned. Also, remember that three worldwide denominations had started in this town (and all left prior to being established). Within the history of the town there are specific instances of distinct hatred of the gospel. For example, the originator of one denomination was whipped by the tavern owner in the town square for preaching during a "frolic" in the tavern in 1790's. Several women were threatened with abandonment if they went to church in the 1800's. In a context like this, for God to give one last chance makes some kind of sense.

Enow · Feb 2, 2013

Floppydog said:

God's power & presence is in the believers as our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit which is why Jesus was telling the Samaritan woman at the well that believers will no longer seek to worship the Father at the mountains nor in Jerusalem because we will be worshipping IN spirit & IN truth... that means He will not be in a place of worship when He is in us and with us always that we can worship Him anywhere... on our sickbed.. in prison... at home... at work... or in an assembly.

When believers start testifying of the presence of God in the worship place or being in a place, believers are not to believe that and to shun meeting there in keeping to the testimony of that promise Jesus has given, thereby standing apart from the world and letting our faith so shine of that new reality in Christ Jesus.

Matthew 24:[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

2 Corinthians 13:[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 John 4:[SUP]3 [/SUP]And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Enow · Feb 2, 2013

revbassman2 said:

When a church refuses correction in keeping the faith, the by His grace & by His help, we are to withdraw.

2 Corinthians 6:[SUP]14 [/SUP]Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? [SUP]15 [/SUP]And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? [SUP]16 [/SUP]And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

2 Thessalonians 3:Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: [SUP]2 [/SUP]And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;.........[SUP]14 [/SUP]And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

We are to bear with one another their shortcomings, but being unrepentant about living in sin and/or being unrepentant of dead works that deny Him when keeping the faith is the good fight... is another matter for which we are to withdraw with His help.

nathan3 · Feb 2, 2013

maybe when their not teaching the Bible.

Enow · Feb 2, 2013

kenisyes said:

Still.... everything about this is off.

We are not to have an agreement with other churches. no matter what the good cause is. That "spirit" looking for an ecumenical agreement to accomplish something God wants is contrary to the scripture.

2 Corinthians 6:[SUP]14 [/SUP]Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? [SUP]15 [/SUP]And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? [SUP]16 [/SUP]And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

2 Thessalonians 3:Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: [SUP]2 [/SUP]And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;.........[SUP]14 [/SUP]And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

So I do not see God giving these people one last chance. I see six couples giving those people one last chance.

John 18:36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Matthew 10:[SUP]13 [/SUP]And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.I do not see Jesus saying give them one last warning of their coming destruction. He simply said that if they did not hear them, depart.

I would say that the six couples capitalize on what has happened as if Jesus was taking about punishments in according to the things of this life, because what had happened at Sodom & Gomorrah was NOT more tolerable than what had happened at that city from which the six couples gave their ultimatum towards. The people of Sodom & Gomorrah would take what had happened at that city since that would be more tolerable than what had happened at theirs.

Nope. I just don't see God working to build His kingdom on earth in that way at all. That's just six couples wanting things to go their way, not God's way. Being of the "holy rollers" background, I would doubt very much their message as being from God.

God would have us focus on the inside... building the kingdom of God there... not the outside where thieves and moths can steal & corrupt. Since Gid would direct our hearts on the things above... how can this message be of Him for the things on earth?

Colossians 3:1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. [SUP]4 [/SUP]When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: [SUP]6 [/SUP]For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: [SUP]7 [/SUP]In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; [SUP]10 [/SUP]And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: [SUP]11 [/SUP]Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; [SUP]13 [/SUP]Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

I would discern by His grace and by His help in according to the written word in the KJV, that the six couples were not serving God at all, and they had used the town's calamity after the fact to add weight to their own glory & the glory of their church for failing to get their ways. Why else hold on to that testimony other than to strike fear the next time they hit another town up for something that is more of the world than of Him of the things above?

When Is It NOT Okay To Go To Church?

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