WHERE ARE WE TODAY IN THE BIRTH PAINS???
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uh....ya...i do.
right here (with personalized embellishments when needed):
People of God in All Ages as One
Fifthly, a small contingency of dispensationalists have begun to regard the people of God in all ages as being one. If prophecy is fulfilled in even a preliminary way in the church, in some way the church participates in the promises contained therein. Thus the church is not so alien to Israel's prophetic heritage after all. Dr. Poythress (no dispensationalist himself) elaborates:
"Christians participate now in the fulfillment of Abrahamic promises, because they are in union with Christ who is the heart of the fulfillment. The full realization of the promises, however, still comes in the future. Hence there are not two parallel sets of promises, one for Israel and one for the church. There are no longer parallel destinies, one for Israel and one for the church. Rather there are different historical phases (preliminary and final) of one set of promises and purposes. And therefore there is really only one people of God, which in latter days, after the time of Christ's resurrection, incorporates both Jew and Gentile in one body (cf. the single olive tree in Rom. 11:16-32).58"
This almost sounds identical with historic premillennialism. Premillennialists of this older kind, while expecting an earthly millennium, do not distinguish two peoples of God, each with separate destinies. But the dispensationalists described above, though they see God's purposes for Israel and the church merging into one in the eternal state, still must be called dispensationalists because they continue to stress the abiding importance of national, ethnic Israel and look to the millennium as that period of time when once again God will fulfill many Old Testament prophecies by pouring out peculiar blessings upon Israel.
Modern Dispensationalism, A Biblical Analysis, Part 4 < click
mix & match.
right here (with personalized embellishments when needed):
People of God in All Ages as One
Fifthly, a small contingency of dispensationalists have begun to regard the people of God in all ages as being one. If prophecy is fulfilled in even a preliminary way in the church, in some way the church participates in the promises contained therein. Thus the church is not so alien to Israel's prophetic heritage after all. Dr. Poythress (no dispensationalist himself) elaborates:
"Christians participate now in the fulfillment of Abrahamic promises, because they are in union with Christ who is the heart of the fulfillment. The full realization of the promises, however, still comes in the future. Hence there are not two parallel sets of promises, one for Israel and one for the church. There are no longer parallel destinies, one for Israel and one for the church. Rather there are different historical phases (preliminary and final) of one set of promises and purposes. And therefore there is really only one people of God, which in latter days, after the time of Christ's resurrection, incorporates both Jew and Gentile in one body (cf. the single olive tree in Rom. 11:16-32).58"
This almost sounds identical with historic premillennialism. Premillennialists of this older kind, while expecting an earthly millennium, do not distinguish two peoples of God, each with separate destinies. But the dispensationalists described above, though they see God's purposes for Israel and the church merging into one in the eternal state, still must be called dispensationalists because they continue to stress the abiding importance of national, ethnic Israel and look to the millennium as that period of time when once again God will fulfill many Old Testament prophecies by pouring out peculiar blessings upon Israel.
Modern Dispensationalism, A Biblical Analysis, Part 4 < click
mix & match.
E
Nope do not believe this. again stop listening to men. you have a distorted view, because you look to men to see what others believe and not what they believe themselves.
The millenium ius God restoring earth to the way it is supposed to be there was no isreal in that earth. the emphasis is not on isreal. it is on all mankind being blessed by Gods presence on earth. about evil being eradicated. About nature being restored.
the fact that Isreal is in her land is just a byproduct of the promise God made them through Abraham, because Abraham was faithful. But it is not about them, it is about Christ.
there was only one salvic covenant made. A promise of a redeemer, who would overthrow satan, and restor mankind to himself. Non of the other covenants took the place of this. or were a part of this. Not th emosaic, not the abrahamic and not the davidic. they were separate covenants altogether.
The NT states the one is no longer in effect (mosaic) in no place does it say the other two are no longer valid or fulfilled.
The millenium ius God restoring earth to the way it is supposed to be there was no isreal in that earth. the emphasis is not on isreal. it is on all mankind being blessed by Gods presence on earth. about evil being eradicated. About nature being restored.
the fact that Isreal is in her land is just a byproduct of the promise God made them through Abraham, because Abraham was faithful. But it is not about them, it is about Christ.
there was only one salvic covenant made. A promise of a redeemer, who would overthrow satan, and restor mankind to himself. Non of the other covenants took the place of this. or were a part of this. Not th emosaic, not the abrahamic and not the davidic. they were separate covenants altogether.
The NT states the one is no longer in effect (mosaic) in no place does it say the other two are no longer valid or fulfilled.
Secondary Applications of Old Testament Precepts and Prophecies
A third neo-dispensational tendency is an increasing willingness to speak of secondary applications or fulfillments of Old Testament precepts and prophecies to the New Testament church. In the thinking of Darby and Scofield, law (not only as taught by Moses and the prophets but also by Christ, as in the Sermon on the Mount) cannot in any way bind the conscience of the Christian, lest the principle of salvation by grace operative in the present dispensation be compromised. And, according to classic dispensationalism, Old Testament prophecy can be fulfilled only in a literal manner by a future earthly Israel. It has nothing to do with the church. But many contemporary dispensationalists read the Old Testament as a document that speaks directly to themselves. They do not think it to be a pilfering of Israel's property to appropriate the comfort of Ezekiel 34:24-31, Joel 2:23 and other such promises for themselves (even if they are convinced that the primary reference of such prophecies is to the millennium). Again, while the Sermon on the Mount will never be fully implemented until the millennium, it has much to say to the church.
How did this hermeneutical transition take place? Perhaps in many cases it is simply that the Spirit has so powerfully brought portions of the law and prophets home to the conscience of the Christian that the hermeneutics he has embraced intellectually, at least in part, is laid on the shelf. But with others the change has been more theoretical. The earlier dispensationalism of the Scofield type allowed a twofold interpretation of Old Testament history (literal for Israel and allegorical for the church) but disallowed a spiritual or typical interpretation of prophecy. But, as Vern Poythress asks, "Why was an extra dimension allowed for history (which on the surface contained fewer figurative elements) and disallowed for prophecy (which on the surface contained more figurative elements)?"52 Recognizing the inherent contradiction between the way Scofield interpreted history and prophecy, many modern dispensationalists have begun to allow for the possibility that in certain instances prophecy, like history, may contain an extra dimension of meaning. Just as the actual historicity of an account is not jeopardized by the recognition of a typological dimension adumbrating Christ and the church, the primary and literal fulfillment of a given prophecy in the millennial Kingdom of Israel may be preserved while secondary and spiritual anticipations of the church may be recognized within the same prophecy. Usually such dispensationalists are very careful to distinguish between the complete and literal fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy in God's future dealings with Israel and the "foreshadowings" of and limited applications to the church. Paul Tan writes:
It is possible of course to see present foreshadowings of certain yet-future prophecies and to make applications to the Christian church. But we are here in the area of "expanded typology." Premillennial interpreters may see a lot of types in Old Testament events and institutions, but they see them as applications and foreshadowments not as actual fulfillments.53
Modern Dispensationalism, A Biblical Analysis, Part 4 < click
mix & match
i can do this all day long.
LOL.
is it about them or isn't it?
millions killed for a BYPRODUCT?
it's not about them, but they're in the Land.
it's about Christ, but it has nothing to do with Him?
oh....ya....that makes sense.
LOL....because some people called Israelis live in that area you think that's ancient israel?
mkay....did ya know the Palestinians are the semites?
course GOD HIMSELF will rid the region of gentiles: why we are never told.
it's just some BYPRODUCT now.
oh....but....ALL ISRAEL will be saved.
by being in THE LAND somehow.
which is a by-product of something.
the Land, over there today...is about Christ?
set me straight EG.
is THE LAND about CHRIST or not?
is the LAND the gospel somehow?
show me.
A third neo-dispensational tendency is an increasing willingness to speak of secondary applications or fulfillments of Old Testament precepts and prophecies to the New Testament church. In the thinking of Darby and Scofield, law (not only as taught by Moses and the prophets but also by Christ, as in the Sermon on the Mount) cannot in any way bind the conscience of the Christian, lest the principle of salvation by grace operative in the present dispensation be compromised. And, according to classic dispensationalism, Old Testament prophecy can be fulfilled only in a literal manner by a future earthly Israel. It has nothing to do with the church. But many contemporary dispensationalists read the Old Testament as a document that speaks directly to themselves. They do not think it to be a pilfering of Israel's property to appropriate the comfort of Ezekiel 34:24-31, Joel 2:23 and other such promises for themselves (even if they are convinced that the primary reference of such prophecies is to the millennium). Again, while the Sermon on the Mount will never be fully implemented until the millennium, it has much to say to the church.
How did this hermeneutical transition take place? Perhaps in many cases it is simply that the Spirit has so powerfully brought portions of the law and prophets home to the conscience of the Christian that the hermeneutics he has embraced intellectually, at least in part, is laid on the shelf. But with others the change has been more theoretical. The earlier dispensationalism of the Scofield type allowed a twofold interpretation of Old Testament history (literal for Israel and allegorical for the church) but disallowed a spiritual or typical interpretation of prophecy. But, as Vern Poythress asks, "Why was an extra dimension allowed for history (which on the surface contained fewer figurative elements) and disallowed for prophecy (which on the surface contained more figurative elements)?"52 Recognizing the inherent contradiction between the way Scofield interpreted history and prophecy, many modern dispensationalists have begun to allow for the possibility that in certain instances prophecy, like history, may contain an extra dimension of meaning. Just as the actual historicity of an account is not jeopardized by the recognition of a typological dimension adumbrating Christ and the church, the primary and literal fulfillment of a given prophecy in the millennial Kingdom of Israel may be preserved while secondary and spiritual anticipations of the church may be recognized within the same prophecy. Usually such dispensationalists are very careful to distinguish between the complete and literal fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy in God's future dealings with Israel and the "foreshadowings" of and limited applications to the church. Paul Tan writes:
It is possible of course to see present foreshadowings of certain yet-future prophecies and to make applications to the Christian church. But we are here in the area of "expanded typology." Premillennial interpreters may see a lot of types in Old Testament events and institutions, but they see them as applications and foreshadowments not as actual fulfillments.53
Modern Dispensationalism, A Biblical Analysis, Part 4 < click
mix & match
i can do this all day long.
LOL.
is it about them or isn't it?
millions killed for a BYPRODUCT?
it's not about them, but they're in the Land.
it's about Christ, but it has nothing to do with Him?
oh....ya....that makes sense.
LOL....because some people called Israelis live in that area you think that's ancient israel?
mkay....did ya know the Palestinians are the semites?
course GOD HIMSELF will rid the region of gentiles: why we are never told.
it's just some BYPRODUCT now.
oh....but....ALL ISRAEL will be saved.
by being in THE LAND somehow.
which is a by-product of something.
the Land, over there today...is about Christ?
set me straight EG.
is THE LAND about CHRIST or not?
is the LAND the gospel somehow?
show me.
*cough*
the cut-off were cut-off.
the faithful remnant remained, and were not cut-off.
believing gentiles were grafted in.
jews who wanted to be saved BY CHRIST through THE GOSPEL just like everybody else, right back in Paul's day could be grafted back in.
and they were, and jews are today. they call themselves CHRISTIANS.
the ppl who are "blind" today are unbelievers.
no Promise of anything.
except what was accomplished in Daniel 9.
forgiveness of sins in CHRIST ALONE.
Done. Over.
all of it.
the cut-off were cut-off.
the faithful remnant remained, and were not cut-off.
believing gentiles were grafted in.
jews who wanted to be saved BY CHRIST through THE GOSPEL just like everybody else, right back in Paul's day could be grafted back in.
and they were, and jews are today. they call themselves CHRISTIANS.
the ppl who are "blind" today are unbelievers.
no Promise of anything.
except what was accomplished in Daniel 9.
forgiveness of sins in CHRIST ALONE.
Done. Over.
all of it.
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zone, I don't know why you didn't respond to my post . . . so I am posting it again.
It would be nice to carry on an adult conversation without heated argument. . . .Will we change each others' minds? Pro'bly not but it puts the two differing opinions out there which is okay to do. Bottom line-----What exactly is the arguing about?
It would be nice to carry on an adult conversation without heated argument. . . .Will we change each others' minds? Pro'bly not but it puts the two differing opinions out there which is okay to do. Bottom line-----What exactly is the arguing about?
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peaceful...you've stated clearly you adhere to hyper-dispensationalism.
there's no real conversation to be had
why would i 'answer your questions' (i.e: attempting to explain any alternative) when you have no intention of leaving that position?
i have stated the Amillennial, One Church One People, No Millennium view.
provided scripture and outside sources...and am happy to keep posting on that.
for your consideration only.
and you are posting hyper-dispensationalism. which i reject completely.
we will never, ever agree, so long as one believes (hyper)dispensationalism, and the other does not.
not ever.i reject ALL dispensationalism.
particularly Bullingerism
Hyper-dispensationalism (ultra-dispensationalism[1] or more rarely "Bullingerism"[2]) is a niche Protestant doctrine that views the teachings of the Apostle Paul both as unique from earlier apostles and as foundational for the church, a perspective sometimes characterized by proponents as the "Pauline Distinctive."[3] E. W. Bullinger (1837–1913), an Anglican clergyman and scholar, is the best known early expositor of Acts 28 hyper-dispensationalism, although the ideas trace back further to John Nelson Darby (1800–1882).
Hyper-dispensationalism is rejected by mainstream dispensationalism, which holds that the Church began at Pentecost[4] long prior to Paul's conversion to Christianity as described early in the New Testament book entitled "Acts of the Apostles." Popular dispensationalist Harry A. Ironside (1876–1951) unfairly declared Bullingerism an "absolutely Satanic perversion of the truth." [5] Anti-dispensationalists simultaneously admire hyper-dispensationalism as a "consistent Dispensationalism" and condemn it as much like a "cult or sect."[6] Evangelicals reject adherents as "divisive."[7]
Hyperdispensationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click
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E
yeah, you can do it all day long and prove your listenting to men;. not the poeple you are talking to. Non of that matches my belief. those are words of men, and their ideas. which do not come close to what I believe.
you mean like the millions of jews killed because of the foundation of your belief? its ok that for centuries many (including the church) killed million of jews because of their hatred of them. But it is not ok for the jews to say enough is enough and kill back. (which in reality it is not. two wrongs do not make a right)
Where do you think Hitler God his idea? the same theology we see you puking out of your mouth in these forums, the same hatred. then again, he got it from your leader!
its ALL ABOUT CHRIST. who made the promise to begin with?? duh!!!!!!
lol.. why do you continue to try to twist things?
Has isreal been restored? No
Has isreal repented? No
Has God restored the earth to the way he promised? No.
nothing over there today is about Christ. WE ARE NOT IN THE MELLINIUM NOW.. your the one with the issue. you state the mellinium is now. yet nothing is the way it is supposed to be in that time..
Nope. he has rid it of ALL EVIL people who are in defiance of God..
why are you defending people who hate God so you can hate on jews? I don;t get it.. Keep on talking. all your doing is making yourself look bad..
yep. A byproduct of the promise. Are you that upset that Isreal will repent and turn from their evil and come to Christ?? why does that upset you so much?? you should be praising God that they, as well as all people on the earth at that time, will be glorifying God and his son.. And this bothers you?? wow!!
Your true feelings are being exposed. you should stop while you can.
I never said the land today stop twisting my words zone.. STOP IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you mean like the millions of jews killed because of the foundation of your belief? its ok that for centuries many (including the church) killed million of jews because of their hatred of them. But it is not ok for the jews to say enough is enough and kill back. (which in reality it is not. two wrongs do not make a right)
Where do you think Hitler God his idea? the same theology we see you puking out of your mouth in these forums, the same hatred. then again, he got it from your leader!
its ALL ABOUT CHRIST. who made the promise to begin with?? duh!!!!!!
oh....ya....that makes sense.
LOL....because some people called Israelis live in that area you think that's ancient israel?
mkay....did ya know the Palestinians are the semites?
LOL....because some people called Israelis live in that area you think that's ancient israel?
mkay....did ya know the Palestinians are the semites?
lol.. why do you continue to try to twist things?
Has isreal been restored? No
Has isreal repented? No
Has God restored the earth to the way he promised? No.
nothing over there today is about Christ. WE ARE NOT IN THE MELLINIUM NOW.. your the one with the issue. you state the mellinium is now. yet nothing is the way it is supposed to be in that time..
Nope. he has rid it of ALL EVIL people who are in defiance of God..
why are you defending people who hate God so you can hate on jews? I don;t get it.. Keep on talking. all your doing is making yourself look bad..
yep. A byproduct of the promise. Are you that upset that Isreal will repent and turn from their evil and come to Christ?? why does that upset you so much?? you should be praising God that they, as well as all people on the earth at that time, will be glorifying God and his son.. And this bothers you?? wow!!
Your true feelings are being exposed. you should stop while you can.
I never said the land today stop twisting my words zone.. STOP IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
E
yep lets completly skip over the part where
ZONE IS NOT TO BE TO PUFFED UP. BECAUSE JUST AS THEY WERE CUT OFF SO SHE COULD BE GRAFTED IN. SHE COULD BE CUT OFF ALSO.
Let forget the mystery. that ISREAL IS BLIND SO SHE WOULD HAVE A CHANCE. BUT ONE DAY SOON, ALL ISREAL WILL BE SAVED.
lets just skip this part.. and only chose parts which support our view..
it is ironic zone, YOUR DOING THE VERY THING PAUL WARNED YOU NOT TO DO!
ZONE IS NOT TO BE TO PUFFED UP. BECAUSE JUST AS THEY WERE CUT OFF SO SHE COULD BE GRAFTED IN. SHE COULD BE CUT OFF ALSO.
Let forget the mystery. that ISREAL IS BLIND SO SHE WOULD HAVE A CHANCE. BUT ONE DAY SOON, ALL ISREAL WILL BE SAVED.
lets just skip this part.. and only chose parts which support our view..
it is ironic zone, YOUR DOING THE VERY THING PAUL WARNED YOU NOT TO DO!
what tribulation?
the magic 7 years?
the 70th week magically severed from the other 69 and dragged into the future 2000 years?
12:1a At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. Rev. 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angesl fought against the dragon and his angels fought back.
12:1b There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.
Matt. 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--never to be equaled again.
12:1c,2 But at that time your people ---everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting contempt.
what you are doing is taking Daniel, and trying to make an IDENTICAL match, in every respect TO REVELATION, in every detail and make it about OUR FUTURE.
you refuse to take your information PRIMARILY from the Gospels and Epistles!
standard for dispies!
JESUS NEVER, EVER, EVER taught a future millennium.
but this is nearly impossible to explain to a dispensationalist.
why not read the work of a FORMER dispensationalist?
you can always take back your current beliefs.
the magic 7 years?
the 70th week magically severed from the other 69 and dragged into the future 2000 years?
12:1a At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. Rev. 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angesl fought against the dragon and his angels fought back.
12:1b There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.
Matt. 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--never to be equaled again.
12:1c,2 But at that time your people ---everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting contempt.
what you are doing is taking Daniel, and trying to make an IDENTICAL match, in every respect TO REVELATION, in every detail and make it about OUR FUTURE.
you refuse to take your information PRIMARILY from the Gospels and Epistles!
standard for dispies!
JESUS NEVER, EVER, EVER taught a future millennium.
but this is nearly impossible to explain to a dispensationalist.
why not read the work of a FORMER dispensationalist?
you can always take back your current beliefs.
EG...why do you continue the way you do?
either ask the lady if she is an hyper-dispensationalist (Bullingerism), or search her posts.
i'm sure she'll be straight up with you. she has been so far.
if ppl keep adding in their own ingredients to those Scofield/Darby/LaHaye/Bullinger/who-knows-who recipes, why is it my job to record every ridiculous addition?
"you don't know what we believe" < cult talk
it's Dual Covenant heresy, no matter what ya call it.
Land By Product, Dome of the Rock Old Skin whatevah
either ask the lady if she is an hyper-dispensationalist (Bullingerism), or search her posts.
i'm sure she'll be straight up with you. she has been so far.
if ppl keep adding in their own ingredients to those Scofield/Darby/LaHaye/Bullinger/who-knows-who recipes, why is it my job to record every ridiculous addition?
"you don't know what we believe" < cult talk
it's Dual Covenant heresy, no matter what ya call it.
Land By Product, Dome of the Rock Old Skin whatevah
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E
what tribulation?
the magic 7 years?
the 70th week magically severed from the other 69 and dragged into the future 2000 years?
12:1a At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. Rev. 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angesl fought against the dragon and his angels fought back.
12:1b There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.
Matt. 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--never to be equaled again.
12:1c,2 But at that time your people ---everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting contempt.
what you are doing is taking Daniel, and trying to make an IDENTICAL match, in every respect TO REVELATION, in every detail and make it about OUR FUTURE.
you refuse to take your information PRIMARILY from the Gospels and Epistles!
standard for dispies!
JESUS NEVER, EVER, EVER taught a future millennium.
but this is nearly impossible to explain to a dispensationalist.
why not read the work of a FORMER dispensationalist?
you can always take back your current beliefs.
the magic 7 years?
the 70th week magically severed from the other 69 and dragged into the future 2000 years?
12:1a At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. Rev. 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angesl fought against the dragon and his angels fought back.
12:1b There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.
Matt. 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--never to be equaled again.
12:1c,2 But at that time your people ---everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting contempt.
what you are doing is taking Daniel, and trying to make an IDENTICAL match, in every respect TO REVELATION, in every detail and make it about OUR FUTURE.
you refuse to take your information PRIMARILY from the Gospels and Epistles!
standard for dispies!
JESUS NEVER, EVER, EVER taught a future millennium.
but this is nearly impossible to explain to a dispensationalist.
why not read the work of a FORMER dispensationalist?
you can always take back your current beliefs.
but you can't see this because you think the end of the age was 70 ad.. so tell me, when did the lord return in 70 AD?? why am I here? Why is evil still present on this earth? why is a baby not laying next to a lion without fear (and don;t say this is heaven, there will be no babies in heaven) why why why?? why do we ignore half of scripture to make our belief system appear logical?? why why why??
E
EG...why do you continue the way you do?
either ask the lady if she is an hyper-dispensationalist (Bullingerism), or search her posts.
i'm sure she'll be straight up with you. she has been so far.
if ppl keep adding in their own ingredients to those Scofield/Darby/LaHaye/Bullinger/who-knows-who recipes, why is it my job to record every ridiculous addition?
"you don't know what we believe" < cult talk
it's Dual Covenant heresy, no matter what ya call it.
Land By Product, Dome of the Rock Old Skin whatevah
either ask the lady if she is an hyper-dispensationalist (Bullingerism), or search her posts.
i'm sure she'll be straight up with you. she has been so far.
if ppl keep adding in their own ingredients to those Scofield/Darby/LaHaye/Bullinger/who-knows-who recipes, why is it my job to record every ridiculous addition?
"you don't know what we believe" < cult talk
it's Dual Covenant heresy, no matter what ya call it.
Land By Product, Dome of the Rock Old Skin whatevah
2. You do not understand what I believe, because YOUR STUCK ON HISTORY AND MEN.
so no one can help you , because you refuse to help yourself. instead you continue to make false accusations. Bear false witness against many who have tried to share their beliefs with you. and make yourself look like the very pharisees you like to hate on.. and the Roman church you claim to have reformed from.
and you wonder why people get so angry with you..
let's pretend the blinding was about 2000 YEARS OF GENTILE PLAN B TIME and not about the LAW and disobedience part.
let's pretend the israel's salvation was not about an elect remnant chosen by God for salvation through the preaching of the Gospel (Acts 2) and through His choosing and selecting THEM like Peter and Paul and James and Nathaniel part.
let's pretend the everybody in the world who practices Judaism is the elect remnant part.
and let's pretend the if we are really really NICE and BLESS ppl who practice Talmudic Judaism God will bless us part.
and the let's pretend anybody who tries to point this out is puffed up and hates jews part.
the let's pretend jews were and are NOT ABLE to come to Christ, even in Paul's Day.
the let's pretend there are Two Covenants in place part.
the let's pretend we never read this part, and we just can't grasp what it means part:
Romans 11
23And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
The Mystery of Israel’s Salvation
25Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
let's seeeeeeeeeeee..........what's THE MYSTERY???????
25Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
And in this way all Israel will be saved
1I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,a a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened
And in this way all Israel will be saved:
I have kept for myself
a remnant
chosen by grace
The elect obtained it
And in this way all Israel will be saved
WHAT WAY PAUL?
AND IN WHAT WAY WILL ALL ISRAEL BE SAVED?
I [God] have kept for myself
a remnant
chosen by grace
The elect obtained it
OBTAINED WHAT?
SALVATION?
WHO IS ALL ISRAEL?
THE ELECT REMNANT.
and the GENTILES ARE GRAFTED IN.
NO JEW OR GREEK.
WHAT WAY PAUL?
AND IN WHAT WAY WILL 'ALL ISRAEL' (the remnant, for they are NOT all israel who are israel) BE SAVED?
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
did this happen yet EG?
i want your final answer on whether or not THIS PROPHECY FROM 711BC ever came to pass:
“And a Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the LORD.
did it?
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:39
The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
can you read?
at all?
they also may now receive mercy.
does that actually say:
they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy 2000 years in the future when God decides to show them mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all, but not the jews for 2000 years
huh?
anything like that whatsoever?
they also may now receive mercy.
does that actually say:
they may not receive mercy for 2000 years until they are in the Land.
huh?
anything like that whatsoever?
as for the ludicrous shell game where you bait and switch between:
TIMES OF THE GENTILES
FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES
MYSTERY OF THE CHURCH
MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL
MYSTERY OF ISRAEL'S SALVATION
do you EVER plan to getting around to learning what those mean?
does that actually say:
they may not receive mercy for 2000 years until they are in the Land.
huh?
anything like that whatsoever?
as for the ludicrous shell game where you bait and switch between:
TIMES OF THE GENTILES
FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES
MYSTERY OF THE CHURCH
MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL
MYSTERY OF ISRAEL'S SALVATION
do you EVER plan to getting around to learning what those mean?