Where did the idea that the soul is immortal originate?
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L
"are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
You need a better translation of the Greek.
It reads: "are set forth as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
Examples are related, and not necessarily identical.
You need a better translation of the Greek.
It reads: "are set forth as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
Examples are related, and not necessarily identical.
R
The Bible interprets itself, what is unclear in one part is made clearer in another. If they are understanding correctly as you say then they can answer the text I put on with another
and besides...you -have- been given multiple scriptures that show that your opponents in this debate -do- have the proper understanding of the issue...
L
well evidently these scriptures are only unclear to you and a few others...everyone else seems to be able to figure out the correct meaning very easily...
and besides...you -have- been given multiple scriptures that show that your opponents in this debate -do- have the proper understanding of the issue...
and besides...you -have- been given multiple scriptures that show that your opponents in this debate -do- have the proper understanding of the issue...
Jeremiah 7:20 KJV
(20) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
H
Roger, the soul is not immortal. Souls die. God says that. "The soul that sinneth shall die" Ezekiel 18;4.
R
Jesus said He is the I AM. I could show many more Bible texts on that but, this is not the topic for that.
C
-in context- this scripture is about God's disapproval of the practice of punishing children for their parents' sins and vice versa...it has -nothing whatsoever- to do with whether the soul is immortal or not...
it is so -easy- to understand the correct meaning of this verse that i am convinced that mortalists and annihilationists who quote it in their arguments are being just plain -dishonest-...
it is so -easy- to understand the correct meaning of this verse that i am convinced that mortalists and annihilationists who quote it in their arguments are being just plain -dishonest-...
They didn't consider the soul immortal when that was written. Why would they address it?
R
Because you have nothing but your own opinion that is why you give nothing. Here is another, the Bible talking about the destruction of Jerusalem at the time of the Babylonian captivity says the fires would not be quenched yet they went out.
Jeremiah 7:20 KJV
(20) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
Jeremiah 7:20 KJV
(20) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
reading comprehension helps...
L
in formal logic it is not allowed...but in theology it is often useful to 'consider the source' and examine the origin of a particular idea including the person or denomination that invented it...this is a scriptural practice because of the principle that good trees do not produce bad fruit and bad trees do not produce good fruit...
before you bite into a doctrinal fruit...shouldn't you first know whether the tree that produced it is good or not?
about the information on seventh day adventism...i have researched this denomination...and while some of the allegations are unfamiliar to me...i do know that a lot of them -are- true...and he didn't even get into the -really- weird ones yet...
one thing you have to realize about your adventist friends is that adventists very often simply will not admit to what they actually believe... much like the mormons who are rarely willing to discuss their doctrines about 'kolob'...adventists tend to have a great emotional need to be accepted as a legitimate christian denomination and not a cult...so even in friendly conversations they tend to omit information about certain beliefs because those beliefs will often get them labelled as cultists...
before you bite into a doctrinal fruit...shouldn't you first know whether the tree that produced it is good or not?
about the information on seventh day adventism...i have researched this denomination...and while some of the allegations are unfamiliar to me...i do know that a lot of them -are- true...and he didn't even get into the -really- weird ones yet...
one thing you have to realize about your adventist friends is that adventists very often simply will not admit to what they actually believe... much like the mormons who are rarely willing to discuss their doctrines about 'kolob'...adventists tend to have a great emotional need to be accepted as a legitimate christian denomination and not a cult...so even in friendly conversations they tend to omit information about certain beliefs because those beliefs will often get them labelled as cultists...
L
there are also many bible texts that indicate that the soul doesn't simply cease to exist when you die...without putting the words 'eternal' and 'soul' together...but apparently you thought that two words not appearing together in a bible verse actually proved something...
R
Someone please tell my why this verse is repeatedly used to 'prove' that the soul is mortal, and can die a physical death? The chapter isn't talking about a mortal soul at all - read verse 21, or better yet...read the entire chapter. Please.
either that or they are borderline illiterate...or deceived by a demonic spirit of confusion...
C
this verse isn't talking about fire at all...what is 'burning' in this verse is God's anger...
reading comprehension helps...
reading comprehension helps...
P.S. That spirit of confusion you speak of has already done it's work. Hence, the misunderstanding of hellfire and the (un) immortal soul that's been taught for the last 1500 years. You just can't see it because your dogmatic obsession with this heresy keeps you blind.
Putting two and two together helps..... God's wrath+plus the fire that will destroy the earth the second time.
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R
That's ridiculous. It says what it says. "The soul that sinneth shall die. You're twisting that to fit your own purposes. Read it as it is written. That verse says nothing about punishing children for their parents' sins. That's reading your own interpretation into a scripture if I ever saw it.
They didn't consider the soul immortal when that was written. Why would they address it?
They didn't consider the soul immortal when that was written. Why would they address it?
R
How can you have burning without fire. The city did burn
the same idiom is also used to describe human anger...as in genesis 39:19 and exodus 32:19 and numerous other examples...
obviously when the bible talks about someone's anger burning...it doesn't mean they are literally spewing out fire...
C
i am reading what the rest of the chapter says...the chapter is about God's disapproval of the practice of executing someone for another person's sin...and the verse fits in with the rest of the chapter...indicating that only the sinner is to be executed and not other family members...it has nothing whatsoever to do with the question of whether or not the soul ceases to exist at death...
Show me anywhere in scripture that says a soul is immortal and survives the death of the body. Anywhere.
L
Revelation 20:9 KJV
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
This is the meaning of the word devour
G2719
κατεσθίω
katesthiō
Thayer Definition:
1) to consume by eating, to eat up, devour
1a) of birds
1b) of a dragon
1c) of a man eating up the little book
2) metaphorically
2a) to devour, i.e. squander, waste: substance
2b) to devour, i.e. forcibly appropriate: widows’ property
2c) to strip one of his goods
1c1) to ruin (by the infliction of injuries)
2d) by fire, to devour, i.e. to utterly consume, destroy
2e) of the consumption of the strength of body and mind by strong emotions
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and G2068 (including its alternate)
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
This is the meaning of the word devour
G2719
κατεσθίω
katesthiō
Thayer Definition:
1) to consume by eating, to eat up, devour
1a) of birds
1b) of a dragon
1c) of a man eating up the little book
2) metaphorically
2a) to devour, i.e. squander, waste: substance
2b) to devour, i.e. forcibly appropriate: widows’ property
2c) to strip one of his goods
1c1) to ruin (by the infliction of injuries)
2d) by fire, to devour, i.e. to utterly consume, destroy
2e) of the consumption of the strength of body and mind by strong emotions
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and G2068 (including its alternate)
R
It is something I show you Bible and you show none
in logic this fallacy is called the 'argument from silence'
in some cases it isn't necessary to quote scripture...you don't need to quote scripture to show someone that the sky isn't purple...
in this particular case it was sufficient to show that your point was based on logically invalid reasoning...
C
"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
This is the context. Obviously, to anyone with any reading comprehension, this scripture is saying that a soul is responsible for itself. The children of that person/soul will suffer for the sins of the soul/person who sinned/father, nor will the father suffer for the sin of his son. Hence, "the soul who sins shall die" means the soul that sins is responsible for his or her own sin and dies as a result, not the children of that person.
This is the context. Obviously, to anyone with any reading comprehension, this scripture is saying that a soul is responsible for itself. The children of that person/soul will suffer for the sins of the soul/person who sinned/father, nor will the father suffer for the sin of his son. Hence, "the soul who sins shall die" means the soul that sins is responsible for his or her own sin and dies as a result, not the children of that person.