Where did the idea that the soul is immortal originate?
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C
Laodicea, your argument is perfectly valid. Besides, since God's last judgement exacted on earth is understand by anyone who reads the scriptures to be an all consuming fire, there was no need for proof anyway. I think it's phenomenal how people will say anything, argue with an entirely invalid point so as not to give in. What they're avoiding is the truth. Hence, they continue to spread lies and call those telling the truth, heretics and false teachers when the accuser is the liar.
C
That is a symbol. Why are they laying within a seal on that altar doing absolutely nothing if that isn't a symbol of saints waiting for the resurrection? Souls just lay around imprisoned in seals doing nothing in heaven? Use your head. Oh wait, they were lying under the altar in that seal. Ok... same thing. I guess it's ok for the entire Bible to contradict itself. Guess that bothers no one but me.
R
nothing in the text nor anything i said was to the effect that the souls were 'imprisoned' inside the seal or anywhere else...the text just says that john saw the souls under the altar when the seal was opened...
i have seen better reading comprehension in elementary school...
the point was that john saw souls of those who had died...so it follows that their souls hadn't ceased to exist at death...which is exactly what you had challenged me to show from 'anywhere in scripture'...
even if you dismiss it as just 'a symbol of saints waiting for the resurrection'...people that simply ceased to exist wouldn't be 'waiting' for anything...
i have seen better reading comprehension in elementary school...
the point was that john saw souls of those who had died...so it follows that their souls hadn't ceased to exist at death...which is exactly what you had challenged me to show from 'anywhere in scripture'...
even if you dismiss it as just 'a symbol of saints waiting for the resurrection'...people that simply ceased to exist wouldn't be 'waiting' for anything...
H
Did you read what he wrote? And yeah, that's exactly what's taught in scriptures. But you actually have to study them to realize this. The words Gehenna, the grave, and Tarturus were all translated into the English word hell. Gehenna was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem where the bodies of criminals and animals were thrown. The fires there never went out because there was always such things there to burn. The worm was said "to never die" there because there were always dead bodies with worms feeding on them. That's what Jesus was talking about when He made reference to the place where the "fires never go out and the worm never dies." Of course, in Hebrew or Arabic, or whatever language He was speaking in, He said Gehenna, not hell. So the people understood what He was saying. Obviously those worms weren't immortal.
I'm not sure how you think scriptures don't teach this. Check them out again. This whole world, which scriptures say God will destroy with fire after the last judgement will be a lake of fire. When exactly was it you thought the devil and his angels would be thrown in that lake of fire? Obviously, that would be the perfect time, especially when death gets thrown in with him. It's at that time all those whose names are not in the lambs book of life go in there too. What about that do you NOT think is punishment? When did people come to the place they think only being tormented without end forever and ever is punishment?
Bizarre. God is not a sadist.
I'm not sure how you think scriptures don't teach this. Check them out again. This whole world, which scriptures say God will destroy with fire after the last judgement will be a lake of fire. When exactly was it you thought the devil and his angels would be thrown in that lake of fire? Obviously, that would be the perfect time, especially when death gets thrown in with him. It's at that time all those whose names are not in the lambs book of life go in there too. What about that do you NOT think is punishment? When did people come to the place they think only being tormented without end forever and ever is punishment?
Bizarre. God is not a sadist.
H
It's a symbol of the fact that these martyrs have not been resurrected yet. Their speaking to God is obviously the same thing. You ask this question, but you ignore scriptures that say for us not to be uninformed...
1 Thessalonians 4:10-18 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[SUP]d[/SUP] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Those saints are sleeping under that altar, in other words, they are dead, or asleep in Jesus waiting for the resurrection. Do you care if scripture fit together?
Remember how Jesus said Lazarus was asleep when he'd died and the disciple said, well, if he's asleep, then he'll get better and be fine? What did Jesus say in return? "No, Lazurus is dead."
1 Thessalonians 4:10-18 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[SUP]d[/SUP] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Those saints are sleeping under that altar, in other words, they are dead, or asleep in Jesus waiting for the resurrection. Do you care if scripture fit together?
Remember how Jesus said Lazarus was asleep when he'd died and the disciple said, well, if he's asleep, then he'll get better and be fine? What did Jesus say in return? "No, Lazurus is dead."
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D
No, they are not sleeping under the altar. They are conscious.
You can't take one verse and make a doctrine out of it. You have to look at them all. Sleeping is a euphemism for dead because a dead body appears to be sleeping.
Paul said "Absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord". This can not be if there is no spirit that survives death.
You can't take one verse and make a doctrine out of it. You have to look at them all. Sleeping is a euphemism for dead because a dead body appears to be sleeping.
Paul said "Absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord". This can not be if there is no spirit that survives death.
S
One verse? I've read through these arguments and I think you need to look up how many times scriptures refer to the dead as sleeping. I think it's you that's trying to build a doctrine on one verse while ignoring all the rest. But then that's so typical of orthodox Christianity. They do not see anything but their own point; hence, they never come to the full knowledge of the truth. They also repel people that see all the holes in their reasoning. If your doctrines contradict themselves, critical thinkers can see that, even if you can't. Modern Christian doctrines involving scripture are so full of holes I'm amazed anyone converts to Christianity these days. That's probably why the church had to invent the never-ending torment doctrine. That scare tactic was probably the only way they sucked people into their church. I wonder what God thinks about that. Gotta lie to make people follow God since you don't know enough about the truth to do it the right way.
D
In english we say "They have passed" It means they have died. It is a phrase we use to soften the blow of a departed friend or loved one. Same thing with the phrase "sleeping" because a dead body seems to be asleep. If sleeping by some bizarre twisting of the scriptures means no soul, then how do you explain the clear teachings of paul?
Here Paul says he prefers death because then you are with Jesus. The bizarre false doctrine of dead = nothing is not from the bible. It comes from Satan, the true source of all lies and heresies.