Which Delivered Us from the Wrath to Come. (1Th 1:10)

[PlainWord]

If we are now at the "age to come", what about the "but now" time period according to you? When did it end?

The last age, the Mosaic Age, ended in 70 AD when the temple fell. This is when the Law came to a complete end. Christ started the end of the Mosaic Age on the Cross. His redemption blood negated the need for the Law as a means of remission of sins. There was a 40 year transition between the Mosaic Age and our Messianic Age. The temple was the symbol of the God of Israel to the rest of the world, it had to go for the rest of the world to realize that God was not just the God of Israel but the creator of all.

If you look at the literal translation of Mat 24 you will see the disciples were asking about the end of their Mosaic Age and they linked it to the destruction of the temple and the return of the Lord's presence.

2 and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.'
3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

Now look at the words of Josephus, the only eyewitness to record the events of 70 AD. He too saw this event as the full end of their age.

But as for that house (the temple), God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages; it was the tenth day of the month Lous, [Ab,] - Josephus, War of the Jews, 6.4.5

Mat 13 tells us that the tares (apostate Jews) and the wheat (believing Jews) were to grow together until the end of the age where they would be separated. The tares were burned up in the fires of 70 AD while the wheat was gathered into the kingdom, the Messianic Kingdom.

In his first letter to the Corinthians Paul writes this:

which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory...Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Present tense

The end of their age was coming!!

 

[Guojing]

The last age, the Mosaic Age, ended in 70 AD when the temple fell. This is when the Law came to a complete end. Christ started the end of the Mosaic Age on the Cross. His redemption blood negated the need for the Law as a means of remission of sins. There was a 40 year transition between the Mosaic Age and our Messianic Age. The temple was the symbol of the God of Israel to the rest of the world, it had to go for the rest of the world to realize that God was not just the God of Israel but the creator of all.

If you look at the literal translation of Mat 24 you will see the disciples were asking about the end of their Mosaic Age and they linked it to the destruction of the temple and the return of the Lord's presence.

2 and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.'
3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

Now look at the words of Josephus, the only eyewitness to record the events of 70 AD. He too saw this event as the full end of their age.

But as for that house (the temple), God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages; it was the tenth day of the month Lous, [Ab,] - Josephus, War of the Jews, 6.4.5

Mat 13 tells us that the tares (apostate Jews) and the wheat (believing Jews) were to grow together until the end of the age where they would be separated. The tares were burned up in the fires of 70 AD while the wheat was gathered into the kingdom, the Messianic Kingdom.

In his first letter to the Corinthians Paul writes this:

which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory...Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Present tense

The end of their age was coming!!

I see, so you basically ignore the "but now" period that Paul talks about.

Again, my point was that Jesus was preaching OT prophecy in Matthew 24, the dispensation of grace that we are in now, is an interruption of that program.

 

[PlainWord]

If we are now at the "age to come", what about the "but now" time period according to you? When did it end?

what "but now?"

 

[Guojing]

what "but now?"

https://doctrine.org/but-now

 

[garee]

So then God is not angry at them. They are not appointed unto wrath. If they can be hear during that time without being appointed unto wrath, then so could you or I.

I do not think when God instructed us to rightly divide in order to seek His approval that he meant divide "time periods" .dispensation or .. God works by faith in all seasons of times purifying the hearts of sinners from all nations.

I would think we divide His word. It gives us his understanding. Historical value the temporal has its place but I would think we should be careful how we hear if we are to look for the unseen eternal understanding that we might seek after his will that works in us.

The wrath of God "death" It is being revealed from heaven, you could say revealed "under the Sun" (Roman 1:18 ).The Sun and moon can be our daily reminders of the beginning of corruption ("you shall surely not die") The glory of God departed Adam and Eve.

No Sun, Moon or temple in new order. . . . No night.

I do not understand why wrath would be divided into different dispensations ? Like limbo or purgatory? No such thing as no tribulation under the Sun.

The end of wage of sin from the beginning is death. Just as the end of salvation from the beginning is new life (Phil 1:6)

The tribulation or jubilation cannot get greater than death only different kind one not like before or ever again Pentecost .

On the last day the Sun and Moon will be under the feet of the bride. Tribulation then will be turn into jubilation. Like at Jericho the walls have fallen down the 7th trump has sounded no temple .

Now we can rejoice with those that do in part by faith, then on the day of the Lord, the last day. . . in full jubilee.

We are in the great tribulation .As sons of God we will be those who come out into Jubilation .

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.Revelation 7:14

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So then God is not angry at them. They are not appointed unto wrath. If they can be hear during that time without being appointed unto wrath, then so could you or I.

Except that particular promise was made to/for/about the Church which is His body (those saved in this present age [singular]), 1Th5:9 (which verse is speaking of an eschatological 'salvation'... same as 1Th1:10 was speaking of 'the One delivering US out-from THE WRATH COMING"... the "us" referring to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [not all "saints" of all time periods])

presidente: [Rev19] The passage does not say the church is in heaven.

(I made a post some time back, pointing out...) way back at Revelation 5:9, they (UP IN Heaven) are saying "hath redeemed US" [this means they are humans not angels].

They are sitting on 24 "thrones" and have "crowns/stephanos of gold" (which Paul had said would be awarded "IN THAT DAY"... not once he died, immediately upon the death of any individual believer, but "IN THAT DAY"... and we see evidence of a "searching judgment" having already taken place by the time of that scene, in the "was found" wording of Rev5:4... just as that is also used in the latter parts of Acts re: Paul's arrest and trials before [their earthly / human] "BEMA seat").

So, well-before the Rev19 scene, which is when He is about to "RETURN" to the earth (FOR the MK age to commence).

 

[presidente]

Except that particular promise was made to/for/about the Church which is His body (those saved in this present age [singular]), 1Th5:9 (which verse is speaking of an eschatological 'salvation'... same as 1Th1:10 was speaking of 'the One delivering US out-from THE WRATH COMING"... the "us" referring to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [not all "saints" of all time periods])

Some aspects of salvation are eschatological for all of us. The resurrection is an eschatological event. I Thessalonians 1:10 was read by people living in the first century.

I have limited time. If you have kind of weak points where you have to assume something contrary to my position for it to be true, can you stay away from those?

(I made a post some time back, pointing out...) way back at Revelation 5:9, they (UP IN Heaven) are saying "hath redeemed US" [this means they are humans not angels].

And John saw these beasts and elders in a vision, too. He probably saw this in the 90's AD. But you are saying these elders are up in heaven when...in the future, post rapture? So then you see this as a sort of visionary time-travel thing? So how does that support your view? What's the difference between John time traveling in a vision to a time after a theoretical pre-trib rapture and to a time after a post-trib rapture.

Another thing is, this is a vision. If John talks to beasts in a vision, is this a vision, and does that necessarily mean that the beasts existed and were conscious of his visit? Peter had a vision of animals in a sheet. Did those animals really exists or did he just see them as part of a message. Is there some visionary pig out there in some non-physical realm that Peter saw, that maybe remembers seeing him? Daniel had a dream about Nebucadnezzer being a head of gold on a statue. Does that mean that at some point in time in history, or even in his dreams, Nebucadnezzer literally experienced being a head of gold? A man in a Midianite village had a dream of a barley loaf rolling down the hill and toppling a tent. Does that mean that Gideon literally turned into a barley loaf and experienced rolling down a hill, or that Gideon had to experience this in a vision or a dream, or was it symbolic?

I had a dream my brother was being beaten by dark figures. He was into some sin and needed to repent. It was symbolic. I told him about it. He did not acknowledge it at the time, but the dream explained his situation. But he did not tell me, "I was there. I saw the dark figures." Though I dreamed it, he was not conscious and aware of the experience. I was seeing a dream that communicated something to me. The individuals in the dream existed in my dream. That doesn't mean the individuals in real life had the experience in my dream.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TDW: Except that particular promise was made to/for/about the Church which is His body (those saved in this present age [singular]), 1Th5:9 (which verse is speaking of an eschatological 'salvation'... same as 1Th1:10 was speaking of 'the One delivering US out-from THE WRATH COMING"... the "us" referring to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [not all "saints" of all time periods])

Some aspects of salvation are eschatological for all of us. The resurrection is an eschatological event. I Thessalonians 1:10 was read by people living in the first century.

Just to be clear (because it seems you've not grasped my point), I am saying THEY ALSO are a part of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" just as we are, today.

I am not distinguishing between them [the Thessalonians of the first century] and us [now].

All of us [them and us today] are members of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (all those saved "in this present age [singular]" / the NOW... See again Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])

So, in saying "US" (Paul saying this in 1Th5:9), he is referring to the entire "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [the singular 'ONE BODY']

I have limited time. If you have kind of weak points where you have to assume something contrary to my position for it to be true, can you stay away from those?

I'll come back later to address the rest of your post... I'm rather occupied at the moment also. = )

 

[Yahshua]

To answer the OP's question; I agree that the Almighty's wrath is after the ingathering.

In light of what's been going on in the world recently, it's been impressed upon my heart to put together a prophetic timeline to list the order of events as they're laid out to me, detailed in the following shared spreadsheet.

I'm a historicist. So I believe the Almighty is sovereign and active in all world events at all times; in the rise and fall of nations (as Daniel 2:21 explains). This means I also believe the last 2000 or so years are explained in the pages of prophecy with much more left (because the Almighty does nothing until he first reveals it to his servants - Amos 3:7). And He's not a man that He should lie - Numbers 23:19.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xk9ITiU85JaMBeZ8lvlOQI4nEPPcLmaiDPoVaYMo6Jk/edit?usp=sharing

The first window is a vertical list of world events tied to prophecies. Use the horizontal scroll bar at the bottom of the 2nd window to find the related verse number of the passages related to the specific prophecy (...ones that I've found so far).


There are several themes at play that'll probably help if kept in mind while scanning the timeline:

1. There's drama between the dragon (with his people) and the Messiah (with His people). It's move and counter-move between the two, as the Messiah wars against the dragon's people while the dragon wars against the Messiah's people.

2. There's a punishment that was owed to Judah for rejecting the Messiah (called "Wrath of the Lamb"). In the law, there's the curse of innocent blood. Proverbs 6:16 says it's one of the abominations the Almighty HATES, another of which is "unjust balances" (thus an "eye for an eye..."). When the Jews said, "may His blood be on us and on our children" they marked themselves for "trouble", so this punishment also has to come to past...but there were also promises made to Israel that the Almighty will keep so a remnant must survive.

3. Every kingdom has a king/principality/angel over it (like Prince of Persia, Prince of Greece and Michael). So there's also drama between the dragon (who appears to be the King of the North) and the King of the South (who's revealed to be another fallen angel); drama as in "who will possess/control the holy land; who will rule"...which should sound pretty familiar, especially given recent history.

4. Next, there's the perfecting of the saints, which scripture says is done through fire (i.e. trials & tribulations), along with salvation gone out to the gentiles.

5. Then, there's the punishment of the armies who stand against the Messiah regardless of which fallen "king" they're under (called "The Wrath of The Almighty").

6. Finally, there are the gentiles/nations who "inherited lies" who receive a chance to learn and walk in truth during the 1000 year reign of the Messiah and his saints (Jeremiah 16:19).

Be blessed.

 

[Butterflyyy]

OK, I'm thinking more of the actual physical aspect...the destruction happening on a wholesale level
Here is just one example...

Revelation 8:7-11 (KJV) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Have you seen the testimony of Tom Horn and the vision he had? Very interesting I think.

 

[Magenta]

Have you seen the testimony of Tom Horn and the vision he had? Very interesting I think.

So lovely to see you back with us I hope you and yours are well

 

[crossnote]

Have you seen the testimony of Tom Horn and the vision he had? Very interesting I think.

No. What is the gist of Horn's testimony?

 

[Butterflyyy]

No. What is the gist of Horn's testimony?

Well someone sent it to me on YouTube last week and he explains how he had a vision 45 years ago... actually I will try and post it here...

 

[Butterflyyy]

 

[crossnote]

Well someone sent it to me on YouTube last week and he explains how he had a vision 45 years ago... actually I will try and post it here...

You can if you want, I'm just not a biggee on personal testimonies, especially those that don't concur with Scripture.
Not that I'm against visions and dreams etc. (I've had a few 45 years ago as well), I just think they are more for private consumption,... not to make $$ on YT.
Scripture should be sufficient.

 

[crossnote]

I've lived through too many of these predictions (that never came to pass), I'll stick with the Book of Revelation.

 

[Butterflyyy]

I've lived through too many of these predictions (that never came to pass), I'll stick with the Book of Revelation.

Well that was the point; the book of Revelation speaks about 'Wormwood' which is why I thought this video of some interest. I agree about the money though; I won't be buying the book lol.

 

[Ahwatukee]

This is another example of how pre-tribbers reading into verses. Look at the context:

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The passage does not say the church is in heaven. The voice says 'hiw wife has made herself ready' not 'he has made us ready. The wedding is announced. It does not say the church is there yet. Jesus raptures the church at the parousia, according to I Thessalonians 4. The scene soon after this in Revelation 19 shows Christ on a white horse.

So This is another example of how people who don't know what they are talking about attempt to support a false teaching!

No, it does not say "his [wife] hath made herself ready."

Get your story straight! Do you even know the difference between a bride and a wife?

It says "His [bride] has made herself ready."

If you're already a wife you don't need to have a wedding, because you are already married!

The bride of Christ is the church and it is in heaven that we will attend the wedding of the Lamb and the wedding feast.

You are reading a lot into that verse, but since the Bible teaches the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at his parousia, this fits that teaching of Paul's as well as it does your theory.

After the marriage supper of the Lamb is announced, we see the groom.

Even your own post above shows that it is referring to a bride and not a wife. A wife is a woman who is already married. A bride is one who is yet to be married.

And this announcement.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Revelation doesn't say that. God's wrath is God's wrath. It is not a time period. Look up wrath in the dictionary.

The scripture above is referring to those who will be killed with the birds eating the flesh of all those who will be gathered there who are against Christ when He returns to the earth to end the age. This does not encompass all of God's wrath, for it will have been going several years prior to Christ's return to the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Anyone with half a brain would understand that the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are not and cannot take place all in one day.

God's wrath takes place like birth pains, which start of slow and far apart, getting closer together and more intense as they go. This is exactly how the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place.

Your answer in order to support these false teachings that you are preaching, is to sum up God's wrath as only taking place on the day the Christ returns to the earth, while ignoring the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which take place in chronological order and over several years.

By the way, when you want to find out what the meaning of a specific word is in scripture and how it's used, you don't go to the English dictionary, you go to the Greek or Hebrew and look at the meaning of the actual word used in scripture, not its translated counterpart.

Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The above is in reference to the great tribulation saints of that time period and not the church!

You need to stop commenting on these things, because you have no idea what you are talking about!

Jesus is going to gather His church/bride prior to the on-set of His wrath. Why? Because Jesus already experience God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe and therefore we not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

Before God's wrath begins, the promise in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thess.4:16-18 will be fulfilled. Therefore, everyone who is reading this, comfort each other with these words, knowing that the Lord is going to rescue us from the coming wrath.

With these teachings of Presidente and others, there would be no reason to comfort one another. Because, instead of Jesus keeping us out of that time of wrath that is coming upon the whole earth, they have those in Christ being punished by God right along with the wicked.

 

[GaryA]

No, it does not say "his [wife] hath made herself ready."

Guess again...

In the KJV, verse 7 does in fact have the word 'wife' in it.

 

[presidente]

So This is another example of how people who don't know what they are talking about attempt to support a false teaching!

No, it does not say "his [wife] hath made herself ready."

Get your story straight! Do you even know the difference between a bride and a wife?

It says "His [bride] has made herself ready."

If you're already a wife you don't need to have a wedding, because you are already married!

You should look verses up in an interlinear before you make such comments. You can find 'bride' or 'wife' in different translations. It's a Greek word for 'woman.' It was used of Mary when she was Joseph's bethrothed, but he had not wed her. Betrothal is strong in Biblical Hebrew culture. The woman is his, but he hasn't taken her yet.

The bride of Christ is the church and it is in heaven that we will attend the wedding of the Lamb and the wedding feast.

The evidence for pre-trib is assuming pre-trib and reading it into the passages, even though when you read the narrative, there is no pre-trib rapture. Pre-tribbers have to resort to John being told to 'Come up hither' and heavy allegorical interpretation to try to say that symbolizes the rapture of the church.

The scripture above is referring to those who will be killed with the birds eating the flesh of all those who will be gathered there who are against Christ when He returns to the earth to end the age. This does not encompass all of God's wrath, for it will have been going several years prior to Christ's return to the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Anyone with half a brain would understand that the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are not and cannot take place all in one day.

Not really relevant to what I posted, and insulting 'anyone with half a brain.'

Reading pre-trib into passages as if that proves pre-trib doesn't come off as uber-intelligent either. My approach is to interpret the allegorical books through straight-forward passages. I do not assume the parousia, the second coming is more than one event. The resurrection and rapture happens at the parousia in I Thessalonians 4. In II Thessalonians 2, the wicked one is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's parousia/coming. None of this fits with pre-trib.

Your answer in order to support these false teachings that you are preaching, is to sum up God's wrath as only taking place on the day the Christ returns to the earth, while ignoring the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which take place in chronological order and over several years.

Wrath is not a time period. It is anger. I do not believe God is angry at the saints who love Him or that He will be during the tribulation. Do you think God will be angry at the tribulational saints? Are they to be objects of His wrath?

By the way, when you want to find out what the meaning of a specific word is in scripture and how it's used, you don't go to the English dictionary, you go to the Greek or Hebrew and look at the meaning of the actual word used in scripture, not its translated counterpart.

You should have done that before making a big deal out of 'bride'/'wife.' Looking up usage in other verses in helpful, sometimes in other Greek literature.

The above is in reference to the great tribulation saints of that time period and not the church!

False dichotomy. Paul refers to the 'church' receiving rest when Jesus comes back, executing vengence on them that believe not in I Thessalonians 2.

You need to stop commenting on these things, because you have no idea what you are talking about!

Maybe you should print that quote out and put it on your medicine cabinet to read when you shave in the morning.

Jesus is going to gather His church/bride prior to the on-set of His wrath. Why? Because Jesus already experience God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe and therefore we not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

That reminds me of this verse.

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

With these teachings of Presidente and others, there would be no reason to comfort one another. Because, instead of Jesus keeping us out of that time of wrath that is coming upon the whole earth, they have those in Christ being punished by God right along with the wicked.

I do not believe God will punish the saints who love and serve Him. That is your idea, your theory. If you do not find comfort in words about the dead in Christ rising, that is a problem with your own thinking. Paul said not to grieve as those who have no hope. We should not grieve like them, because we have the hope of the resurrection.