Which Delivered Us from the Wrath to Come. (1Th 1:10)

PlainWord · Apr 26, 2020

There was a sea change and it happened in 70 AD. 70 AD marked the end of the age the disciples and Jesus lived in and talked about. This was when the Law passed away.

Mat 5:

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven (the Temple symbolic of heaven on earth) and earth (the disbelieving Jews) pass away (in 70 AD), one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Are we still living with the Law? NO. When did the Law end? 70 AD. The passing of the Temple, Israel and the Law were fulfilled. IF THE LAW IS NO LONGER WITH US, THEN HEAVEN AND EARTH PASSED AWAY!! IF THE LAW IS GONE, THEN "ALL THINGS" HAVE BEEN FULFILLED!!

What was the "ALL" which was fulfilled?

Mark 13: “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

Luke 21: For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

What were "the days of vengeance?" Let's start by God exacting revenge against all those who killed His Son. In 70 AD, all wicked Jews on the planet were killed, 93% of the population. This left 7%, the righteous and Christian Jews left alive. We all know the meaning of 7.

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 26, 2020

presidente said:

2Th1:7-8 says, "ye who are troubled/oppressed rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels, in a fire of flame, inflicting vengeance on those not knowing God and on those not obeying the gospel of our Lord Jesus, ..."

... but this is not speaking of merely "a singular 24-hr day" (note that Rev1:1 says "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" when referring to the FUTURE aspects of that Book, by comparing the other wording of that verse with that of Rev1:19c and 4:1 [7:3 also]; and by viewing the SAME "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" phrase [along with the "VENGEANCE" word both found in Lk18:8 (see also chpt 17 end), and then the SAME "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" word in Rom16:20 (this one addressed to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"/us), "will crush Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*," which verse correlates, as I see it, with (our "job description" found in) 1Cor6:3(14) "we SHALL JUDGE ANGELS"... (the "24 THRONES" IN HEAVEN showing this "change in LOCATION" for that "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, where the "24 elders" are saying "hath redeemed US," and this is just before Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" by opening the FIRST SEAL / parallel the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that both Jesus and Paul spoke of, and of which Paul in his later 2Th2 said that ONE THING must take place *FIRST* before the DOTL can be present to unfold upon the earth [i.e. its ARRIVAL at INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR 1Th5:2-3; i.e. SEAL #1]" with its "man of sin" [i.e. the period of time OF JUDGMENTS unfolding; aka the 'IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that the DOTL's ARRIVAL kicks off, IOW everything following Rev4:1/1:19c... the judgments unfolding upon the earth over the course of that "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, what Lk18:8 says INVOLVES "vengeance"... but again, this is NOT merely "a singular 24-hr day's worth" of it, nor was the 70ad events [associated with the phrase "these be the dayS of vengeance" in Lk21:22 in the "70ad" section of the Olivet Discourse, Lk21:12-24 only] [it didn't] last merely "a singular 24-hr day")]).

This 2Th1-2 section has "the DOTL" / "IN THAT DAY" (SAME time-period) just like in the OT passages, where when used in close proximity, are always speaking of the SAME time period (not merely "a singular 24-hr day"), and this is what we find in the passage under discussion presently (in the CONTEXT of the 2Th1:7 verse which says, "[ye...] rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION"... and goes on to speak of "IN THAT DAY" [identical TIME PERIOD as "the DOTL" when it WILL "BE PRESENT" once it ARRIVES (same point in time that the "man of sin" ARRIVES, to do ALL he will DO over the course of SOME TIME / "IN HIS TIME" / the "IN THE NIGHT" time period, aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, involving JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth [Jesus IN HEAVEN opening SEAL #1 and so forth], and "vengeance" [this verse says, "inflicting vengeance.".. etc], but again, not merely "a singular 24-hr day")]).

[part of that JUDGMENT (unfolding) is described in 2Th2:10-12]

Guojing · Apr 26, 2020

PlainWord said:

There was a sea change and it happened in 70 AD. 70 AD marked the end of the age the disciples and Jesus lived in and talked about. This was when the Law passed away.

Mat 5:

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven (the Temple symbolic of heaven on earth) and earth (the disbelieving Jews) pass away (in 70 AD), one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Are we still living with the Law? NO. When did the Law end? 70 AD. The passing of the Temple, Israel and the Law were fulfilled. IF THE LAW IS NO LONGER WITH US, THEN HEAVEN AND EARTH PASSED AWAY!! IF THE LAW IS GONE, THEN "ALL THINGS" HAVE BEEN FULFILLED!!

What was the "ALL" which was fulfilled?

Mark 13: “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

Luke 21: For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

What were "the days of vengeance?" Let's start by God exacting revenge against all those who killed His Son. In 70 AD, all wicked Jews on the planet were killed, 93% of the population. This left 7%, the righteous and Christian Jews left alive. We all know the meaning of 7.

You are ignoring the interruption that God made when Paul was saved.

EmethAlethia · Apr 27, 2020

crossnote said:

Since the tribulation is the great outpouring of God's wrath, obviously His kids won't be on the receiving end of it any more than your obedient kids (If you love Me you will keep My commandments.) receive punishment and wrath from their loving Father. Funny, the one who comes with all the power and deceiving influences of Satan Himself, who is so powerful that he convinced 1/3 of the angels who were with God when the foundations of the earth were laid, cannot be revealed until "He that restrains" "is taken away". Now considering that even Michael, the Ark angel, won't even level an accusation against Satan but says, the Lord God reprove you, who can restrain Satan? Any ideas? Who is here that can restrain Satan himself? Just God, right.

Here's an interesting verse:

Joh 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

The "Helper"/ paraclete cannot be sent until Jesus departed. Does it make sense that that helper would have to depart "before" Jesus comes again? (Note: There is no room to be dogmatic, but that conclusion makes sense to me.)

Here's another one:

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Couple of things "sealed" like with a signet ring of a king indicating the only one who has authority to open or take what is sealed. Plus the wording of "pledge of our future inheritance". A pledge is given "until" what the pledge is given for is received. If you never receive what the pledge is given for you keep the pledge. The ONLY time the pledge can be taken back is after you get what is pledged. In other words, if you are a true Christian, you will have the Holy Spirit indwelling you until you actually have received the inheritance ... in heaven.

Couple of things. Jesus is not physically here. The Holy Spirit is here because He indwells every true Christian. Third, the only time the Spirit can leave you is after you are in heaven and have received your inheritance. Next, "He" who restrains has to be gone for the antichrist to be revealed.

Add them altogether and what do you have? A pre-wrath rapture (Because we will not taste of the wrath that is to come.) Then the antichrist has his day, then Christ comes back. From what I see everything fits.

EmethAlethia · Apr 27, 2020

presidente said:

There are O.T. saints, N.T. saints, and saints in revelation. Are they all the same? Nope. In the later parts of revelation the only way to be saved is to avoid the mark of the beast and be martyred. That's a little different than the rest of the N.T. salvation message. The promises made to the O.T. saints cannot be fully fulfilled by looking at the N.T. church. Those promises to the Israel of faith are fulfilled in Revelation with the 144,000. While they are all "God's people" and will all be in heaven, they are not the same, nor can you make them the same without horribly distorting, ignoring, ... the rest of what is said about them, what they will inherit, and their positions in the kingdom of heaven.

EmethAlethia · Apr 27, 2020

presidente said:

Yes, first, then second, and all in the twinkling of an eye. In other words, no one who remains will even notice the resurrection or the rapture ... gone baby gone ... not in 60 seconds, but in a blink of an eye. It's not like 3 1/2 years pass between the two events.

EmethAlethia · Apr 27, 2020

massorite said:

The word is harpadzo in Greek. Exact meaning "Taken or caught" up. Latin "Rapturo" exact meaning: "Taken or caught" up. The meaning is EXACTLY the same it's just in a different language. Arguing that Rapturo is not in the original Greek is like arguing that "caught up together is not in the original Greek. Duh, that's because it wasn't written in English. The same meaning is there.

So why do we use rapture instead of harpodzo? Probably because no one wants to be harpodzoed and we all like rapture. Harpodzo sounds like something people do to an unfortunate whale. As long as you agree that we are all going to be caught up together with Him in the air, we all understand the same thing. BUT the resurrection occurs first before you are harpodzoed. LOL

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

There is an order, and the resurrection is a different event altogether. They just happen rapidly after each other ... in the twinkling of an eye.

crossnote · Apr 27, 2020

EmethAlethia said:

I would think so.

EmethAlethia said:

I think it's a matter of difference between 'cannot' and 'would not'. Of course He 'can', but 'would' He?

EmethAlethia said:

Agreed.

EmethAlethia said:

I'm not against a 'pre-wrath' rapture and in many cases see it as quite tenable, but for other reasons.
But I think you are dangerously close to separating the two natures of Christ (Divine and human) as well as the Persons of the Trinity. (there is one God). Although Jesus is not here in bodily form, He is here in Spirit, otherwise how can the Scriptures say "Christ in you, the hope of glory?

massorite · Apr 27, 2020

EmethAlethia said:

So where in the bible is the word "harpadzo" written??
The Greek Word "Harpadzo" means "Rapture"

RAPTURE - “harpagesometha” in First Thessalonians 4:17 is the future indicative passive of “harpadzo” and means “to snatch up, to seize, to carry off by force, to rapture. The word often denotes the emotion of a sudden swoop, and usually that of a force which cannot be resisted.” An example of this Greek word’s use is seen in Acts 8:39 when the Holy Spirit physically took ("harpasen" the aorist indicative active of “harpadzo”) Philip away from the Ethiopian to be found later in the town of Azotus...There will be a rapture, but we will not be counting down when it happens!
Like I said the word Rapture is not written in the bible but that the Rapture and the Resurrection are talking about the same event.

cv5 · Apr 29, 2020

presidente said:

This is another example of how pre-tribbers reading into verses. Look at the context:

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The passage does not say the church is in heaven. The voice says 'hiw wife has made herself ready' not 'he has made us ready. The wedding is announced. It does not say the church is there yet. Jesus raptures the church at the parousia, according to I Thessalonians 4. The scene soon after this in Revelation 19 shows Christ on a white horse.

You are reading a lot into that verse, but since the Bible teaches the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at his parousia, this fits that teaching of Paul's as well as it does your theory.

That's not my theory. The saints meet the Lord in the air as He comes.

After the marriage supper of the Lamb is announced, we see the groom.

And this announcement.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Revelation doesn't say that. God's wrath is God's wrath. It is not a time period. Look up wrath in the dictionary.

That contradicts your theory since there are believers mentioned in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

It is used in the singular of a church in and a church in a house. When speaking of regions, the plural 'churches' is used. We see this in Acts and the epistles. Paul uses it in certain places to refer to the universal church, or the church throughout time and space, or to use the terminology of Hebrews, the general assembly and church of the firstborn.

Paul uses 'church' to refer to a local church at the return of at His parousia, when he comes executing vengence on them that believe not, when he comes to be glorified in the saints (compare to the terminology of Revelation.) The church will be raptured at Christ's parousia according to I Thessalonians 4, and the wicked of II Thessalonians 2 will be destroyed at the brightness of his parousia. Your theory does not even have the man of sin being revealed until after the rapture. That is not consistent with Paul's letters to the Thessalonians.

Paul's direct teaching in II Thessalonians and directly using the word 'church' trumps guesswork based on supposed trues.

If you are going to resort to such allegorical interpretation to try to squeeze a pre-trib rapture out of that verse, why go with a literal interpretation of Revelation at all? Why not just interpret the whole thing with the allegorical approach you are using on this verse?

Paul tells the church they will receive rest when Jesus comes to execute judgment on them that believe not and to be glorified in the church.

My friend, the pre-tribbers and pre-mils are indeed correct. I urge you to please review the relevant scriptures from this perspective. Expect a blessing in wisdom and understanding.

presidente · Apr 29, 2020

cv5 said:

I am premil, but not pre-trib.

In I Thessalonians 4, the rapture and resurrection occur at the parousia/the coming of Christ.

In II Thessalonians 2, which speaks of the man of sin, that wicked one is destroyed at the brightness of Christ's coming/parousia.

But pre-trib has the rapture 7 years before Christ returns and the wicked one is destroyed. Don't you see the problem? Pre-trib rests on reading pre-trib into eschatological passages, assuming that pre-trib is right and then treating scripture as commentary.

cv5 · Apr 29, 2020

presidente said:

No Sir. Two different events, two different subjects, two different times. Please see Chuck Missler he can straighten out this matter for your benefit.

presidente · Apr 29, 2020

cv5 said:

Two parousias. Show us a verse that indicates that there are two more comings of Christ yet to come.

My experience with the late Chuck Missler's teachings is that he assumes pretrib and reads it into passages, too.

cv5 · Apr 29, 2020

presidente said:

Sorry man. Been through this hundreds of times. Missler is correct. See his work its quite thrilling really. People may have misunderstood certain aspects of prophecy in the past, but today, Daniels prophecies and so many others fit like a glove, with no loose ends, no omissions, and all covenants and prophecies fulfilled to the letter and precisely on time. We are in the age, specified by the required world-wide communication system, a soon to be worldwide financial system and governmental system and so on and so forth.

The pre-trib rapture and millennial reign is undoubtedly correct. The Church never sees one single wrath seal opened, and are in heaven in Rev 4 & 5 and never see Rev 6-19.

GaryA · Apr 29, 2020

presidente said:

And, because of that, they unknowingly misinterpret a lot of scripture - never realizing that they are wrapping scripture around the pre-trib ideas.

massorite · Apr 29, 2020

presidente said:

No your wrong "presidente" the pre trib doctrine is a lie from the pits of hell and can oy be proven with scripture because there is no scripture to prove it.

presidente · Apr 29, 2020

cv5 said:

When I heard Missler on the topic, he was taking a passage on the end times, maybe II Thessalonians 2, and assuming pre-trib and commenting on the passage as if that is what it were about. I haven't seen anyone 'derive' pretribe from scripture, except for the argument that the apostasy is the rapture, which does not fit the context of that passage, and is contrary to the way Paul uses it elsewhere.

cv5 · Apr 30, 2020

presidente said:

Pls review these relevant scriptures. Jesus is EXPLICIT in warning He will come as a thief....to those who are NOT watchful and prepared.

John 14:1-3
Rom 8:19
1 Cor 1:7-8
1 Cor 15:1-53
1 Cor 16:22
Phil 3:20-21
Col 3:4
1 Thess 1:10
1 Thess 2:19
1 Thess 4:13-18
1 Thess 5:9
1 Thess 5:23
2 Thess 2:1 (3?)
1 Tim 6:14
2 Tim 4:1
Titus 2:13
Heb 9:28
James 5:7-9
1 Peter 1:7, 13
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 21
Rev 2:25
Rev 3:10

presidente · Apr 30, 2020

cv5 said:

So if you knew the second coming was going to happen to the day because Jesus came back 7 years before, that would be a problem.

cv5 · Apr 30, 2020

presidente said:

The rapture and doctrine of imminency go together. Imminency does not work with the tribulation.

Rev 3:3
But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Which Delivered Us from the Wrath to Come. (1Th 1:10)

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