Who is smarter, man or God?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,777
513
113
#41
I actually love the O.T........and have spent quite a bit of time in it.....guess what.....it ALL points to Christ <---HE said....In the volume of the BOOK it is written of ME....SEARCH the scriptures, for they are they that testify of ME.........

From Genesis 1:1 to the last verse of Malachi and the entire N.T. <----IT all points to Jesus THE Christ!
I thought Christ was God, and what is true of one is true of the other.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,777
513
113
#42
I was just trying to think of body parts with little or no use. I could have suggested a toe nail or hair, but they're not made of skin, so probably not a fair comparison.

We do wear clothes these days, making that function somewhat redundant.

My understanding is that female "circumcision" or Female Genital Mutilation, is totally different from circumcision, and not really comparable. While circumcision just removes excess skin, FGM removes the most sensitive part of the female anatomy.

I think the argument that circumcision reduces sexual pleasure was debunked in 2015.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Intact_Men_Using_Quantitative_Sensory_Testing

I fully agree. But I believe that after sin entered the world, things deteriorated. So as people started wearing clothes, the purpose of the excess skin on males wasn't so important, but the consequences of disease was moreso. I don't think this was the primary reason God gave circumcision, but I believe there may be health benefits, and certainly that God would not command something that was harmful.
I believe that any time we see God's ways as purely physical or purely spiritual we are mistaken. The Jews were rebuked when they thought that they had completed their obligation to the Lord when they obeyed His rituals, and we are mistaken when we say that the Lord only guides us spiritually. There are spiritual consequences to our physical acts and our spiritual understanding without any physical is useless.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
1,689
873
113
#43
I have been poked fun at because I study scripture with people who are deeply involved with the OT and ancient Hebrew history. I am told I am too absorbed by the OT, it is mixing me up. One scholarly Christian told me it was foolishness. They have a label for it, they call it the roots movement. Anyone who speaks too much of OT is told they believe in going back to the sacrificial system scripture tells us we are not to use. The roots people, so intent on accepting the Lord on the Lord’s terms are accused of not accepting scripture. The roots people are scolded for their study, they are told we must stay in the NT even with our study. They are told the new covenant is accepted, we must not learn about the old covenant for it is not accepted.

One of the things these new covenant people take God to task for is some of the OT rituals God gave man. They say that it was not right for God to have used the sacrifice of animals as a symbol of the sacrifice of Christ. Also, the Lord is laughed at for saying not to mix fibers for example, the Lord is taken to task often for what is in the OT. The idea is that man has so much greater wisdom than God. But that has not always proven to be true.

Our food is restructured by man. As an example, man cuts our grains apart and takes out the part of them that are the most nutritious. How our animals used for food are fed makes their diet unnatural. So, our food does not nourish us properly. Over and over we have finally learned that God’s way is best. Learning the thoughts of the Lord always brings wisdom, in every way God is superior to man. It is not right for man to take God to task, ever.

I have found that every time man sets himself up as wiser than God it is either through misunderstanding God or that that person is wrong.

People can scoff all they want, I study the way of God, including the way of God before Christ. I find great wisdom there just as there is great wisdom in Christ.
Are you really fairly representing what evangelical Christians think?

A sound understanding of the relationship between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is that the OT pointed toward Jesus Christ in terms of types and shadows. God's moral law is exhibited, in some rough fashion, through the Mosaic Covenant, but much of it is ceremonial. These ceremonies pointed toward Jesus Christ, and if one reads Scripture through a Christological hermeneutic, he can learn a lot through the Old Testament.

The fundamental issue with many Hebrew Roots types are that they impose a Mosaic lens upon the New Testament, rather than the other way around, though. As a result, many of them end up denying the full deity of Jesus Christ, denying the writings of Paul, and claiming that extra-biblical writings are inspired and/or authoritative.

Anyone who denies the full deity of Jesus is anathema. Anyone who Judaizes and claims that NT believers must observe festivals, Sabbath, and dietary laws is anathema, according to Galatians. Anyone who denies that justification is by faith alone, and that righteousness is a gift gained by imputation, is anathema. according to Romans.

However, there is great value in understanding the Old Testament, and I'm guessing the vast majority of people on this forum realize that.

So, my question is, who denies that studying the OT is valuable? Are you talking about Andy Stanley?

The shadows and types of the Mosaic Covenant are fantastic. However, the Mosaic Law is not in effect now.

There is nothing wrong with studying the OT, however many Hebrew Roots types are Judaizers. First question I would ask them: is Jesus truly God and truly glorified man? Second question: Is justification by faith alone? Third question: Are Paul's writings inspired and authoritative? Fourth question: Do you rely on extracanonical writings (outside of the 66 books of the Bible) as inspired and authoritative? Fifth question: what do you think about Christians who don't observe Sabbath, festivals, and dietary laws?

Those five questions weed out most of the nuts and displays their heresies.
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
9,435
1,785
113
#44
EZ. 44:9.
Thus saith The Lord GOD;
No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into My sanctuary,
of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

in Hebrew thought is was believed that the 'heart' was the seat of intellect, so in today's thought,
we would say, 'circumcise your mind'...
also,
in Hebrew, if someone is 'head over heels' in love with someone, they would say,
'I love you with all of my kidneys' lol, - the 'liver' was associated with
very serious-strong-emotion, and the 'hair', was symbolic with 'new and vibrant life' -
if we understand this, then it gives us a little more thought/insight into the 'sacrificial system'...

we always appreciate Post's thoughts and analysis...
also there are some really good thoughts and posts along with his in this thread,
Thanks to all...
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,572
3,227
113
#45
To answer the OP question, I’m going out on a limb and saying God. Just a hunch.
It's another pointless rhetorical question.

The real issue is whether God planned to carry the Old Covenant requirements into the Church under the New Covenant, and the answer is a resounding "NO!"

So actually the ones holding on to elements of the Law of Moses AFTER the finished work of Christ believe they are smarter than God! They simply cannot fathom the radical change which took place on the day that the veil in temple was torn in two from top to bottom. And try as you might, you cannot educate those who are wilfully blind.

What they are saying in effect is that who Christ is, and what He accomplished, is not sufficient for us. And that is an extremely serious matter.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,301
909
113
#46
the bible says the covenant to circumcise for abraham's descendents is forever. i dont blame jews for still doing it because of that.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
1,464
1,694
113
#47
It's another pointless rhetorical question.

The real issue is whether God planned to carry the Old Covenant requirements into the Church under the New Covenant, and the answer is a resounding "NO!"

So actually the ones holding on to elements of the Law of Moses AFTER the finished work of Christ believe they are smarter than God! They simply cannot fathom the radical change which took place on the day that the veil in temple was torn in two from top to bottom. And try as you might, you cannot educate those who are wilfully blind.

What they are saying in effect is that who Christ is, and what He accomplished, is not sufficient for us. And that is an extremely serious matter.
A heartbreaking Amen.
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
794
312
63
#48
It's another pointless rhetorical question.

The real issue is whether God planned to carry the Old Covenant requirements into the Church under the New Covenant, and the answer is a resounding "NO!"

So actually the ones holding on to elements of the Law of Moses AFTER the finished work of Christ believe they are smarter than God! They simply cannot fathom the radical change which took place on the day that the veil in temple was torn in two from top to bottom. And try as you might, you cannot educate those who are wilfully blind.

What they are saying in effect is that who Christ is, and what He accomplished, is not sufficient for us. And that is an extremely serious matter.
Hebrews 7:11-12, “Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed (#G3346), there is made of necessity a change (#G3331) also of the law.”

as the Levitical priesthood is abolished, now is the high priest after the order of Melchizedek

Hebrews 7:23-25, " 23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

yet the law remains, and is mediated by Jesus

Matthew 5:17-18, " 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Hebrews 7:24-25, " 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
4,786
5,459
113
#49
the bible says the covenant to circumcise for abraham's descendents is forever. i dont blame jews for still doing it because of that.
I 100 percent agree in not blaming them, but isn't He now speaking of the heart, so it still remains forever, right?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,572
3,227
113
#50
yet the law remains, and is mediated by Jesus
"The Law" is a term which can mean different things, depending on the context. Matthew 5:17-18 sums up the Hebrew Tanakh (our Old Testament) as "the Law (the first five books) and the Prophets" (the remaining 19 books). But that is NOT what we are talking abut here. There are scores of prophecies which are yet to be fulfilled.

However, the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant, but there are some who would seek to undermine this fundamental truth. Which in fact undermines the finished work of Christ.
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
794
312
63
#51
"The Law" is a term which can mean different things, depending on the context. Matthew 5:17-18 sums up the Hebrew Tanakh (our Old Testament) as "the Law (the first five books) and the Prophets" (the remaining 19 books). But that is NOT what we are talking abut here. There are scores of prophecies which are yet to be fulfilled.

However, the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant, but there are some who would seek to undermine this fundamental truth. Which in fact undermines the finished work of Christ.
I do note your saying "There are scores of prophecies which are yet to be fulfilled " and I agree.

This also clarifies it:

Luke 24:44-49, " 44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

Jesus says "untill all is fulfilled and unless heaven and earth passes" neither are fully complete yet. ALso greek word #G3331 is a transferral, transformation, disestablishment of the law mediated on earth to the law being mediated rfom heaven.

Mediation is a key part most greatly overlook.

Luke 16:16-17, " 16 “The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
 

Shekinahglory

Active member
Aug 29, 2019
157
62
28
#52
I have been poked fun at because I study scripture with people who are deeply involved with the OT and ancient Hebrew history. I am told I am too absorbed by the OT, it is mixing me up. One scholarly Christian told me it was foolishness. They have a label for it, they call it the roots movement. Anyone who speaks too much of OT is told they believe in going back to the sacrificial system scripture tells us we are not to use. The roots people, so intent on accepting the Lord on the Lord’s terms are accused of not accepting scripture. The roots people are scolded for their study, they are told we must stay in the NT even with our study. They are told the new covenant is accepted, we must not learn about the old covenant for it is not accepted.

One of the things these new covenant people take God to task for is some of the OT rituals God gave man. They say that it was not right for God to have used the sacrifice of animals as a symbol of the sacrifice of Christ. Also, the Lord is laughed at for saying not to mix fibers for example, the Lord is taken to task often for what is in the OT. The idea is that man has so much greater wisdom than God. But that has not always proven to be true.

Our food is restructured by man. As an example, man cuts our grains apart and takes out the part of them that are the most nutritious. How our animals used for food are fed makes their diet unnatural. So, our food does not nourish us properly. Over and over we have finally learned that God’s way is best. Learning the thoughts of the Lord always brings wisdom, in every way God is superior to man. It is not right for man to take God to task, ever.

I have found that every time man sets himself up as wiser than God it is either through misunderstanding God or that that person is wrong.

People can scoff all they want, I study the way of God, including the way of God before Christ. I find great wisdom there just as there is great wisdom in Christ.[/
 

Shekinahglory

Active member
Aug 29, 2019
157
62
28
#53
The Lord said in the volume of the book it speaks of Him. The Old Testament wisdom is from the shadows of Christ. Christ is God and co-equal with God the Father God the Holy Spirit. Christ has preeminence in both sections of Scripture. Who do you think came into the Garden seeking His lost sheep? The Good Shepherd Jesus Christ. If you are studying these things for what they teach you of Christ that’s what they were crafter to do. If you are studying them and being placed under their bondage to the Law you are using the Law improperly and that is a sin. I believe every Christian should be versed in the o.t.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,777
513
113
#54
However, there is great value in understanding the Old Testament, and I'm guessing the vast majority of people on this forum realize that.
There is nothing wrong with studying the OT, however many Hebrew Roots types are Judaizers. First question I would ask them: is Jesus truly God and truly glorified man? Second question: Is justification by faith alone? Third question: Are Paul's writings inspired and authoritative? Fourth question: Do you rely on extracanonical writings (outside of the 66 books of the Bible) as inspired and authoritative? Fifth question: what do you think about Christians who don't observe Sabbath, festivals, and dietary laws?

Those five questions weed out most of the nuts and displays their heresies.
I have never found a roots leader who taught against scripture, but I have often found this in the orthodox. There has often been "judinaizer" accusations, but I have never seen any of these accusers back this up with facts. I have seen the orthodox deny truth and counsel against scripture. There is much anti-semitism that scripture speaks against as an example. We are told that the judaizer laws were like a schoolmaster leading children to school and now the Holy Spirit is to lead us to the same spiritual goal yet the orthodox council against learning what these things are.

Roots people simply believe in all scripture, they believe in all God teaches and orthodox people believe they can choose.
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
9,435
1,785
113
#55
I 100 percent agree in not blaming them, but isn't He now speaking of the heart, so it still remains forever, right?
==================================================
EZ. 44:9.
Thus saith The Lord GOD;
No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into My sanctuary,
of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
==========================================================
here is what it says in the mil-reign, one has to be circumcised in 'both ways', -
the 'putting off of the 'flesh' and the putting off of the 'carnal-mind' -
the 'foreskin' symbolizes' putting OFF of the FLESH, and the 'circumcision' of the HEART,
is 'bringing every thought into the 'OBEDIENCE of Christ...

this is the simplicity of Christ'...
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
2,145
1,014
113
www.christiancourier.com
#56
Is it too simple to believe that God created the foreskin and then commanding men in the OT to cut it off, merely to help drive home the truth of our natural sin state and our need to remove it through Christ? Also, is it too simple to think the womens menstrual cycle and child bearing pain preach the fall and need for Christ as well?

Everything about us points back to our King and Saviour, our hope...the Lord of Hosts.

The OT and NT points to Christ and so should we!!!
AMEN!
I think that is why our Savior admonished the elders in the temple saying, they look for Him in the scriptures but do not recognize Him when He stands before them.
Man's ways are not God's ways.
When circumcision in scripture is referred to as both spiritual and physical, I would tend to think the physical is man's doing so as to , as some say, separate the male human from the animal kind, through such surgery.
While spiritual circumcision would mean, cutting away our sensitivity to the temptations and temporary satisfactions of worldly ways.

When God created Adam in HIS own image and likeness Adam had foreskin. When God later looked upon all that He created and saw that it was good, and we later are told God created everything to be as it appears, that would include the natural man's member uncircumcised.
God's creation excised by man's hand as he looks upon that which God created and finds it worthy of being removed, is a message in itself.
We need remember also that the brit milah was and remains a Jewish tradition performed on Jewish male children by a Mohel and according to what God commanded on the eighth day. The Book of Leviticus 12.

I think that is man's doing being God after creating all things created rested on the seventh day.
That then falls under the Law of Moses, which was nailed to the cross when Jesus died to save the world from ceremonial practices intended to cover sin not redeem sin. Being that would be the case, circumcision is no longer to be practiced.
However, that the Jews do not believe Jesus was Messiah, they continue to live under the law of Moses. We however, do not.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
2,145
1,014
113
www.christiancourier.com
#57
I have never found a roots leader who taught against scripture, but I have often found this in the orthodox. There has often been "judinaizer" accusations, but I have never seen any of these accusers back this up with facts. I have seen the orthodox deny truth and counsel against scripture. There is much anti-semitism that scripture speaks against as an example. We are told that the judaizer laws were like a schoolmaster leading children to school and now the Holy Spirit is to lead us to the same spiritual goal yet the orthodox council against learning what these things are.

Roots people simply believe in all scripture, they believe in all God teaches and orthodox people believe they can choose.
Do you tire of people accusing Christians of being "Judaizers"?
By that definition it would be impossible for that accuser to be speaking to or of a Christian because anyone returning to Jewish tradition would necessarily abandon faith in Christ. And would instead believe as the Orthodox Jews do. That Moses and no other prophet was of God. And as such Moses teachings must be obeyed.

Further, and of course I could be in error, stranger things have happened :p, I do not believe Orthodox Jews accept the idea that belief is elective. That they can choose what they accept as part of their faith and practice. They follow the 13 precepts laid down by Moses Maimonides . To disagree with that scholar's teachings is considered heresy.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,222
5,636
113
#58
...They are told the new covenant is accepted, we must not learn about the old covenant for it is not accepted.

One of the things these new covenant people take God to task for is some of the OT rituals God gave man.
Who says these things? Quote them please. It's very easy to make up accusations against unnamed people.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,777
513
113
#59
Who says these things? Quote them please. It's very easy to make up accusations against unnamed people.
Even on this posting there is a statement that the roots people are ofter judaizers. And yes, I agree that it is easy to make up "these things" and it should not be done.
 

jacob_g

Active member
Sep 1, 2019
277
108
43
#60
I have been poked fun at because I study scripture with people who are deeply involved with the OT and ancient Hebrew history. I am told I am too absorbed by the OT, it is mixing me up. One scholarly Christian told me it was foolishness. They have a label for it, they call it the roots movement. Anyone who speaks too much of OT is told they believe in going back to the sacrificial system scripture tells us we are not to use. The roots people, so intent on accepting the Lord on the Lord’s terms are accused of not accepting scripture. The roots people are scolded for their study, they are told we must stay in the NT even with our study. They are told the new covenant is accepted, we must not learn about the old covenant for it is not accepted.

One of the things these new covenant people take God to task for is some of the OT rituals God gave man. They say that it was not right for God to have used the sacrifice of animals as a symbol of the sacrifice of Christ. Also, the Lord is laughed at for saying not to mix fibers for example, the Lord is taken to task often for what is in the OT. The idea is that man has so much greater wisdom than God. But that has not always proven to be true.

Our food is restructured by man. As an example, man cuts our grains apart and takes out the part of them that are the most nutritious. How our animals used for food are fed makes their diet unnatural. So, our food does not nourish us properly. Over and over we have finally learned that God’s way is best. Learning the thoughts of the Lord always brings wisdom, in every way God is superior to man. It is not right for man to take God to task, ever.

I have found that every time man sets himself up as wiser than God it is either through misunderstanding God or that that person is wrong.

People can scoff all they want, I study the way of God, including the way of God before Christ. I find great wisdom there just as there is great wisdom in Christ.
You simply cannot understand the Nt without the OT.... Why would you believe Jesus is Messiah and understand why you are a sinner in need of a Savior unless you understood God is your Creator, the life is in the Blood, Jesus is the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.... just like Jonah was 3 days in the bells of the great fish so Messiah will be buried for 3 days, just as Moses lifted up the staff so shall the Son of Man be lifted up (and this is healing), the veil ripped open, He is the cornerstone the builder rejected, Heb. ... He is above angles, Before Abraham I was, the list goes on.... this is all meaningless without the OT!!!