Who Justifieth the Ungodly

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
113
Christ died for everyone (1 John 2:2). God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).

Are these verses not in Calvinist’s Bibles?
You are way off, and you are not paying attention to the Truth. Those Christ died for, which is limited to Gods elect, are discharged from all their sins.
 
Dec 21, 2020
1,825
474
83
You are way off, and you are not paying attention to the Truth. Those Christ died for, which is limited to Gods elect, are discharged from all their sins.
You say one thing, the Bible says another. I‘ll stick with the Bible.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Christ died for everyone (1 John 2:2). God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).

Are these verses not in Calvinist’s Bibles?
lol! Apparently not. But that never stopped any of them from believeing what they want to believe.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
You are way off, and you are not paying attention to the Truth. Those Christ died for, which is limited to Gods elect, are discharged from all their sins.
If you had the truth, you would have quoted the verses. But you can't because there are no such verses.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
Rom 3:24

Being justified freely [without conditions by us] by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
What Rom 3:22-25 does is nullify your notion that faith is works on the part of man.

Romans 3:

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Since righteousness is through faith (vs 22) and since we are justified freely by God's grace (vs 24), then it is error on your part to conclude faith is a "work" on the part of man.




brightfame52 said:
all that come to believe by the Power of the Gospel
Believing is not the result of the "Power of the Gospel".

Faith in the gospel of Christ results in salvation. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The verse does not state that the "Power of the Gospel" causes anyone to believe.

The verse states that for all who believe, the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation.

Quit manipulating God's Word to prop up your erroneous dogma.

Bring your dogma into alignment with Scripture. Do not attempt to align Scripture to your dogma.
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
you condition Justification before God, you base it upon when a sinner believes, that Justification by works.
Nope. Scripture is very clear in telling us that faith is not works:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Bring your dogma into alignment with Scripture. Do not attempt to align Scripture to your dogma.
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
brightfame52 said:
you find scripture truths within the context of scripture. Duh

reneweddaybyday said:
yeah ... you should try it sometime

brightfame52 said:
I do it all the time

reneweddaybyday said:
No you don't. you rip single verses from their context and then go off on an erroneous dogmatic tangent in your attempt to align Scripture to your dogma.

Im merely highlighting a truth found in the context.
God doesn't need your help in "merely highlighting a truth found in the context".

God places verses within the context He determines is best in "merely highlighting" truth.




brightfame52 said:
because you condition Justification before God on what man does, works !
Nope. Scripture makes quite clear that faith is not works:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


According to Romans 5:1, how are we justified ?

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
The Truth is found within the context, it doesnt matter if its at beginning of the context, in the middle of it, at the end of it. Each verse contains Truth and shouldn't be discarded because it doesnt fit ones traditions !
I do not discard verses. What I do is compare your "traditions" with the context of the verse you rip from its context. That is where you are in error. Align your "traditions" with Scripture ... do not attempt to align Scripture with your "traditions".




brightfame52 said:
If things were the way you say, not even the Apostles could have borrowed scriptures from the Old Testament to make New Testament points.
:rolleyes: ... so now you're an "Apostle"???

The reason the men who penned Scripture "borrowed scriptures from the Old Testament to make New Testament points" is because God, as the Author of Scripture, revealed to them what He wanted written and they wrote it ... just as God instructed:

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

You, on the other hand, rip a verse from the context and then try to explain the verse according to your "traditions". That is improper interpretation of Scripture ... and is referred to as eisegesis:

Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.
The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.
Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
brightfame52 said:
reneweddaybyday said:
Unbelievers can believe ... the muslim believes in allalh with the same faith the corn again one believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Not just any unbelievers, but elect Justified born again unbelievers
:rolleyes: intentionally obtuse ...
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
brightfame52 said:
reneweddaybyday said:
It is the Object of our faith which determines our salvation.
a sinner whom Christ died, is not Justified by Christs death, means Christ isnt the object of their Faith
Exactly. In the case of the muslim who places his/her faith in allah, he/she remains unjustified.
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
According to Rom 5:10 when were the believers reconciled
According to Romans 4:24, when is righteousness imputed?

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God, nor can he know/understand them, since they are spiritually judged 1 Cor 2:13-14
:rolleyes: more of your continual taking verses out of context in order to support a "tradition".

According to 1 Corinthians 2:7, Paul is no longer speaking of the gospel in vss 13-14. In 1 Corinthians 2:7, Paul begins to speak of the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom. These are deeper spiritual truths than the gospel of Christ.




brightfame52 said:
The unregenerate sinner doesnt have the spiritual capacity to spiritually believe the Gospel nor understand it
Again, 1 Cor 2:13-14 relates to deeper spiritual truths than the gospel of Christ.


When you misinterpret 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 to state that "the unregenerate sinner doesnt have the spiritual capacity to spiritually believe the Gospel nor understand it", you are supporting your "tradition".

You are to align your "tradition" to Scripture. You are not to attempt to align Scripture to your "tradition".
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
Yes, a person must be born of the Spirit to have Faith, for Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22. So believing Faith is limited to the Born again ones.
Again, you've got people born again before they can believe the gospel by which they are born again. You've got the cart before the horse.


Additionally, love is the fruit of the Spirit as well. Are you saying that natural man cannot love because love is the fruit of the Spirit?

What about temperance (self control)? No natural men have self control?

How about patience? No natural men are patient?

Or is it only faith that you claim is withheld from mankind ... or given only to the "elect" so that the "elect" is born again and has fruit of the Spirit so he/she can believe the gospel by which he/she is born again ?

Quit trying to make Scripture align with your dogma. Bring your dogma into alignment with Scripture. Whenever your dogma does not align with Scripture, stick to Scripture and throw your dogma into the trash heap where it belongs.

.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
Anyone Christ died for is a Justified person
According to Romans 5:1, how are we justified ?

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ




brightfame52 said:
Listen, all for whom He died, He purged their sins
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
113
Justifieth the ungodly !

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

One of the most popular and damnable heresies in false antichrist religion is that Faith, which pleases God Heb 11:6 is a condition for man to do, to act before God does Justify him; BUT thats a lie against the Truth and against God's Grace, the fact is, those for whom Christ died are Justified /made righteous by that single act of His alone Rom 5:19 and that while they are in themselves still being ungodly, even enemies Rom 5:10 !

Justifying the ungodly is in the present tense and ungody is preceded by the definite article :

τῷ δὲ μὴ ἐργαζομένῳ πιστεύοντι δὲ ἐπὶ τὸν δικαιοῦντα τὸν ἀσεβῆ λογίζεται ἡ πίστις αὐτοῦ εἰς δικαιοσύνην

This means they were being counted as Justified/made Righteous while they were the ungodly ! That word ungodly means :

I.destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious

Remember earlier Paul wrote of the state of the natural man by nature Rom 3:18

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Yes, while those whom Christ died are in that ungodly state, they are being Justified, hence , God hath because of Christ Justified the ungodly !

You see one cannot act faith in Christ, which act pleases God, and that be the cause of God Justifying them, when one is Justified while being ungodly, and a ungodly person cannot and does not please God with one single act of theirs !

That thought in fact is negated at the very start with Paul's statement "But to him that worketh not" which can be rendered also "But to the one not yet acting"

This again denotes being Justified without any act of theirs being done or considered ! 12
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
113
You say one thing, the Bible says another. I‘ll stick with the Bible.
Those whom Christ died have had their sins purged away by His Blood Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

That word purged katharismos :

a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Chris

See that, purged from the guilt of sins, by Christs death. Their guilt for their sins have been discharged, they are Justified. Thats the scripture if you haven't noticed, so why not stick to that ? How can anyone Christ purged be charged with sin ? Rom 8:33


33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Notice Hes at the Right hand of God here just as He is in Heb 1:3 its the same truth !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
113
renewed

What Rom 3:22-25 does is nullify your notion that faith is works on the part of man.
Nothing about any conditions here, again Vs 24 in that context specifies Justification is by Grace freely, through Christs Redeeming death

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Now you the one that makes Faith a work that the natural man does, not me. My position is that Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 which the natural man doesnt have. So you make faith a work of men, a condition man performs.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
113
renewed
Believing is not the result of the "Power of the Gospel".
Yes it is because the Gospel is the Power of God Rom 1:16

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

According to Rom 1:16 what is the power of God ?