Who was Moses speaking to?

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#41
Well Gods first covenant was with Noah and He also made it with all the animals on the ark and their perpetual generations.
God's first covenant was with Adam. The Edenic Covenant is not explicitly called a covenant in Genesis, but it is later referred to as a covenant in Hosea 6:7~

And they, as Adam, transgressed a covenant, There they dealt treacherously against me. (YLT)
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#42
Someone is refusing? You are WAY out of line with this post.

I have gone back and read many scripture verses that is God speaking to us about strangers, and it seems to me that God is letting us know that He is God of all people, created all people, and speaks to all people. God has God principles that simply are His principles and the OT tells us about these principles. The only thing I see different about God for the Hebrews and the gentiles is that God takes special care of the Jews because He uses them to tell us about those principles that are God principles. God asks us to be thank the Jews for this, also.
If what you say is true, then why, in Acts 15:28, did it seem good to the Holy Spirit (Who is God) to put no further burden on Gentiles than four particular abstentions? Why didn't the Holy Spirit affirm obedience to the entire Torah?
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#43
Wow... you really don't get the program here.

The topic of discussion in this thread is NOT the covenant in Christ's blood. Rather, it is the old covenant made with ethnic Israel. Why are you having so much trouble with this concept?


Until Christ's death, there was no such thing. How could God make a covenant with a people who don't exist?
Two kind of books will be opened both written from the foundation before the demonstration of the cross.

Two kinds of covenants. One as ceremonial . . non profitable used as a shadow .And the other unseen the law of faith the revealing of the hidden substance .You could say hidden manna.

Like all things two kinds .the father of lies who turn things upside down the father of lies would have men to believe it is all one and the same (shadow and substance) Or what God calls separate he calls together. The upside-downer taking away God interpretation. . . by faith.

How. ? easy for Him. "Let there be and he saw it is good " He is not served by human hands as if he needed anything from the clay he is forming His Spirit in . He said; "I will give you a new spirit and a new heart". Not I might. I see it more as with Jacob he had to wrestle us down comfort us to tell us the good news.

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

It is God alone who can make our hearts soft. . . That is not of our own selves...we are his master piece. He is the artist..

Blood, or blood and water, the temporal is the metaphor used to represent Christ pouring out His spirit life in jeopardy of his own Spirit. It is used that way in many parables . He is the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world . Not from the demonstration promised in Isaiah 53.he said of that demonstration the flesh profits for noting. It is a new spirit we need our corrupted spirit must die. . the new incorruptible bodies we seek after as a living hope.

As new creatures we are moved by the new covenant having the power to move as Emmanuel in us works to both will and do His good pleasure. He instructed Noah to move according to His good purpose as the mystery of faith . It His power that we have in these earthen vessels of clay moves us, not us moving him. The was the covenant of man represented by the faithless Jews turning it upside down taking away the understanding of him not seen giving it to men seen called a law of the father. I think the covenant in the end is between the father and the Son they worked to perform it. As many as the father gave to the Son they will come. j

Genesis 6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

And we shall come into the ark of His love.... the mystery of the covenant. . as the peace of God surpassing all human understanding as the understanding of God.

Remember his thoughts and ways are not ours any more than my thoughts come from brother Dino or vice versa .
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#44
Until Christ's death, there was no such thing. How could God make a covenant with a people who don't exist?
I think God is in the business of creating things anew .Not to hard for Him. Let there be (twinkle) and it was good.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen2:7
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#45
I am not clear about what your beliefs are. Do you think the Hebrew God, speaking to the Hebrews excludes you, so you are not included in what this Hebrew God tells the Hebrews?

In 2 Sam. 22:45 Strangers shall submit themselves unto me: as soon as they hear, they shall be obedient unto me.

This is only one of the many many scriptures telling the Hebrews the God is including the strangers as in Lev. 8, 12, and 13. Lev. 19:24. Lev. 20:2. Jos. 8:35. This is only a very small sample of those scriptures.
I believe that in the NT there is mentioned that God is the God of the Gentiles too.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#46
Two kind of books will be opened both written from the foundation before the demonstration of the cross.

Two kinds of covenants...
GAREE: Why do you respond to my post, but COMPLETELY ignore the words in it?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#48
If what you say is true, then why, in Acts 15:28, did it seem good to the Holy Spirit (Who is God) to put no further burden on Gentiles than four particular abstentions? Why didn't the Holy Spirit affirm obedience to the entire Torah?
God does guide us to obedience to the entire Torah in spirit and truth and it is explained in Jeremiah under the new covenant. Animal blood is not sacrificed for sin, it is Christ's blood. Foreskin is not cut for as a sign of belonging to the Lord, but we are to belong to the lord. Diet is not used for a sign of keeping our minds on pure things, but we are not to fill our minds with what is unclean.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#49
I believe that in the NT there is mentioned that God is the God of the Gentiles too.
Bob and I have recently finished reading through Exodus, and have started into Joshua. I noticed at least once or twice where God was called the God of all people, everywhere, but for the life of me I cannot find those passages now :giggle::oops:
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#50
God does guide us to obedience to the entire Torah in spirit and truth and it is explained in Jeremiah under the new covenant. Animal blood is not sacrificed for sin, it is Christ's blood. Foreskin is not cut for as a sign of belonging to the Lord, but we are to belong to the lord. Diet is not used for a sign of keeping our minds on pure things, but we are not to fill our minds with what is unclean.
This post strongly suggests that you aren't familiar with the Torah. Now... I don't think that's the case, but I do think you've focused on a few issues instead of considering the details. Here are several laws that make your position look uninformed at best, and ridiculous at worst:

Leviticus 19:19ff "you shall not... wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.

Leviticus 20:27 “‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.’”

Numbers 5:2 “Command the Israelites to send away from the camp anyone who has a defiling skin disease or a discharge of any kind, or who is ceremonially unclean because of a dead body.

Obedience to the Torah means obedience to these commands. You can argue about "in spirit and in truth" all you like, but in the end, you aren't obeying the Torah if you aren't following all of the Torah. I'd like to know how you propose to stone a spiritist "in spirit and in truth".
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#51
This post strongly suggests that you aren't familiar with the Torah. Now... I don't think that's the case, but I do think you've focused on a few issues instead of considering the details. Here are several laws that make your position look uninformed at best, and ridiculous at worst:

Leviticus 19:19ff "you shall not... wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.

Leviticus 20:27 “‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.’”

Numbers 5:2 “Command the Israelites to send away from the camp anyone who has a defiling skin disease or a discharge of any kind, or who is ceremonially unclean because of a dead body.

Obedience to the Torah means obedience to these commands. You can argue about "in spirit and in truth" all you like, but in the end, you aren't obeying the Torah if you aren't following all of the Torah. I'd like to know how you propose to stone a spiritist "in spirit and in truth".
I disagree with you that we need to disobey Paul in order to obey the Torah. If that was the case then scripture, all of it, needs to be tossed out because it isn't to be trusted. I know that today it is difficult to learn from the OT because of these things. I have a difficult time making sense of the directions not to mix fibers because mixed fibers makes wonderful textiles.

There were very strict rules to follow to convict any person. Also, it was a theocracy with no jails as we know jails and prisons. When scripture tells us that something is so serious it leads to stoning we know that in God's eyes this is serious. Ever since Saul, God has allowed us to have secular government.

I don't think it is best to just say God is stupid and wrong, these things prove it.

The attitude toward these scriptures that seem so extreme and wrong to us that I don't think we should have to to decide God is all wrong and we should simply not listen to a God who is that wrong.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,408
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#52
Today people know that there is only one God who is God of everyone but in OT time it was universally believed that each nation had their own god. Over and over as God speaks to the Hebrews, God speaks to them and also to the “strangers among you”.

In the approximately 2,000 years of the history of our world from Adam to Abraham, people had forgotten the Lord and created idols as gods. God created and used the Hebrew race to tell us about Him. God created all people, God is the God of all, but Hebrews thought he was their personal God, so did the rest of the world.

As people today read the OT to learn about God they often think of God as relating to and making covenants with the Hebrews, only. What do you think about it?
I corrected a few of your use of the word God and replaced it with god, since they are no god's at all. As far as Israel is concerned, God chose them as His precious possession from all the people of the earth:

"For you are a holy people, who belong to the LORD your God. Of all the people on earth, the LORD your God has chosen you to be his own special treasure."

And regarding those of the church who believe in Christ, scripture says:

"I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

and, “In the very place where it was said to them (Gentiles), ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’ ”

Israel and the church have different dispensations on the earth. As an example, the church will be removed from the earth during the time of God's wrath because they have faith in Jesus and His promise. Where Israel, though God's chosen people, did not recognize Him when He appeared on the earth and still don't and will remain on the earth during the time of God's wrath in fulfillment of that last seven years of seventy sevens that was decreed upon them in Dan.9:24-27. According to God's word, once the abomination of desolation is set up, the woman/Israel will flee out into the desert to that place that God will have prepared for them and they will be cared for during the last 3 1/2 years until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age (see Matt.24:15-22, Rev.12:6, 14).
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#53
I disagree with you that we need to disobey Paul in order to obey the Torah.
...
I don't think it is best to just say God is stupid and wrong, these things prove it.
Here yet again, TWICE, you have put words in my mouth that I did not say. You completely misconstrue and misrepresent my message. That's a bad habit. Please stop doing it.

If that was the case then scripture, all of it, needs to be tossed out because it isn't to be trusted. I know that today it is difficult to learn from the OT because of these things. I have a difficult time making sense of the directions not to mix fibers because mixed fibers makes wonderful textiles.
Again, "tossed out" are your words, not mine. I have no difficulty "making sense" of any of these because I understand that the Torah was not given to me! It was given to ethnic Israel three thousand and some years ago.

If I understand you correctly (and I'm quite sure that I do), you believe that everything God ever said to anybody is binding on Christians today. However, nothing in Scripture teaches that. "All Scripture is God-breathed"... Genesis to Revelation. You keep trying to "toss out" Paul in favour of Moses. The council in Acts 15 makes it clear that obedience to the Torah is not required of gentile Christians. It doesn't contradict anything else in Scripture.

There were very strict rules to follow to convict any person. Also, it was a theocracy with no jails as we know jails and prisons. When scripture tells us that something is so serious it leads to stoning we know that in God's eyes this is serious. Ever since Saul, God has allowed us to have secular government.
So... where is the command for stoning repealed? Nowhere! Rather, Scripture makes it plain that Christians are under a different and better covenant.

The attitude toward these scriptures that seem so extreme and wrong to us that I don't think we should have to to decide God is all wrong and we should simply not listen to a God who is that wrong.
Well, when you find someone who teaches that, tell them. I don't, so this comment is irrelevant to me.

Also, when you find the verse that tells you as a gentile believer in Christ that you must obey the Torah, let me know, because it isn't in my Bible.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#54
Bob and I have recently finished reading through Exodus, and have started into Joshua. I noticed at least once or twice where God was called the God of all people, everywhere, but for the life of me I cannot find those passages now :giggle::oops:
I will have to research this. I am quite sure the God is the God of all the people.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#56
Here yet again, TWICE, you have put words in my mouth that I did not say. You completely misconstrue and misrepresent my message. That's a bad habit. Please stop doing it.


Again, "tossed out" are your words, not mine. I have no difficulty "making sense" of any of these because I understand that the Torah was not given to me! It was given to ethnic Israel three thousand and some years ago.

If I understand you correctly (and I'm quite sure that I do), you believe that everything God ever said to anybody is binding on Christians today. However, nothing in Scripture teaches that. "All Scripture is God-breathed"... Genesis to Revelation. You keep trying to "toss out" Paul in favour of Moses. The council in Acts 15 makes it clear that obedience to the Torah is not required of gentile Christians. It doesn't contradict anything else in Scripture.


So... where is the command for stoning repealed? Nowhere! Rather, Scripture makes it plain that Christians are under a different and better covenant.


Well, when you find someone who teaches that, tell them. I don't, so this comment is irrelevant to me.

Also, when you find the verse that tells you as a gentile believer in Christ that you must obey the Torah, let me know, because it isn't in my Bible.
I still don't think that we are to toss out any scripture, we are to understand.

God gave rituals to the Hebrew people to help them live as His people. Paul said those ways were like a schoolmaster protecting children on their trip to school and with Christ, they those rules were needed no longer. That is scripture. You say if you obey Moses you still go by those rules and I think you can follow Paul by not going by them any longer and still obey Moses. I don't think the walk to school is what the Lord was most interested in, but the spirit of the law was the important part. I think Paul is right, you can listen to the spirit and truth and not need the physical helps.

The Bereans that we are told of in Acts agree with me, for they checked everything Paul said with scripture and found Paul was in agreement. They felt if Paul opposed Moses then he opposed scripture.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#57
The Bereans that we are told of in Acts agree with me ...
Wow, you're confident. Are you implying that the Bereans don't agree with me?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#58
Wow, you're confident. Are you implying that the Bereans don't agree with me?
I don't think your beliefs or my beliefs make a bit of difference to the truth and the truth is in scripture. The truth is what we are looking for.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#59
God's first covenant was with Adam.
There was no covenant with Adam. Adam was given one commandment, and he failed to obey it. Noah received the first covenant in the Bible, and it plainly says that.