Whta is the Gospel!

[phil36]

As someone who always gives good advice regarding church attendance, about instead of complaining about church, pitching in and helping to fix the problems... I do hope whenever a person speaks in tongues you are the first to raise your hand to give the interpretation..that you are doing your utmost to see that the women in your church are silent as Paul commanded, and that prophecy is being desired, sought after, as Paul said "seek to prophesy", and practiced for the edification of the Church...


If your church is not doing these things then it is no better, in fact probably worse than the average pentecostal church as no body is being edified through prophecy and your women are all talking and creating a disorderly church!



Anyway Paul in his travels made sure that believers had had the second experience of the Spirit:


Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

You have made one mistake, in trying to make a point Mahogony.... I believe in the use of tongues.. I have never said I havent!!!!

Your debate about women wearing heading coverings is really laughable Mahogony. I thought you of all people would have had more sense.

Phil

 

[phil36]

Hi phil, the only place I have read of the types of tongues is in acts.
I only thought tongues was for the apostles as well when I was young. This is what I was taught.
Until I heard a child pray in tongues. I thought it was wrong and spoke to the parents about it. They told me it was a gift of the Holy Spirit and that it was given according to God's will.
They said to try and see if I could when I prayed thet night. I did and found I could pray in a language that was beautiful and I felt all came from my heart.
I wnt to bible study prayer meetings at their home , I was to shy to pray aloud myself but what I heard was heavenly music . There was often interpitation by some and I heard words spoken myself a few times. I also recieved understanding about things to come one time and all is coming true.
I cannot say if it is for all or just some, I do not think if one does not have the gift of tongues that they are not saved. I simply believe it is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
I know when I pray in tongues that it is the honest prayer of the heart. I do test all as called to in scripture.
I wish I knew the scripture better as I know this is a debated issue.
I read that you have never seen an instant healing, I have, one of my children was born with a genetic issue that required surgery to correct. It is very common in my family. My child had all the symptoms and had been evaled at the hospital that day. The tests showed that the surgery would need to be done soon. That night I ask our prayer group to lay hands and pray for healing or the surgery to be done soon as the symptoms were wearing and weakening my child. After all layed hands and prayed for my infant child all symptoms stopped. When we took my child back in for additional tests the evidence of this was gone. The drs were confused and could not explain it. One said there must have been a shadow or some malfuntion of the imaging equipment.
This was a double mirical because we did not know at that time, but 4 yrs later when my child had simple toncil surgery we found out that my child had a rare reaction to the anistesia. It was a matter of minutes till death. My child survived, but we were told that if this had happened when an infant, my child would probably not survived.
I know the gifts of the Holy Spirit are questioned by some, all I know is that, that in scripture, when given in Jesus to God Our Father in faith, all is possible.
God bless, pickles

Hi Pickles,

I think people are wrongly assuming I do not believe in Tongues this is false. I agree as to what Paul said. Paul did not not say everyone will have this gift and neither does the rest of Scripture. so we should be very careful about things that sound wonderful and feel wonderful. I could eat cream cakes and pies everyday, they are wonderful but eating like that it will kill me prematurely

So, so that everyone knows, I do not deny the gifts of the Spirit, I believe God heals, but yet it seems to be secondary compared to the healings in the Bible.. the Apostles spoke and there was instant healing...instant! I believe God still heals but as you have rightly shown it is through earnest and continuing prayer. that is the norm.


Phil

 

[phil36]

Acts 1:4-6. Jesus gave the command to wait in Jerusalem for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He goes on to describe how they will be given power to be witnesses throughout the world.Excellent,
Acts 2:1-4 His promise is fulfilled. The church recieves the power to reach the world. Yep that is true
Acts 2:14-21. Peter points out this day as the fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel, that the Sprit of God will be poured out on all Israel, not just the few prophets, but those of every social class. Peter certainly does, this is on a back drop of the charge of the people being drunk. It is very interesting, how pentecostals use this as evidence, yet, the people where speaking just in a different language. I.e thos foreign to Jerusalem understood in their own language, a child could tell us that just from reading the text

On that Pentecost, Jesus' promise was fulfilled. Nothing more was needed regarding that. The church inequivocally recieved the power to reach the world. This is seen, I believe rightfully, as the creation of the church. This was day was the coming of power of the NEW COVENANT as promised before hand. The Holy Spirit was coming to [people in a new powerful way (NEW), Of course you will know that this ties in with the prophecies with Jer/Ezek? Nothing here to do with speaking in what we now call tongues!!


Now Peter points out that something else happened on that day. That a second prophecy was fulfilled, one that was not only corporate but individual, that the Spirit would be poured out. Now we know that Jesus breathed on the disciples before he left and that they recieved the Holy Spirit Yes, the Great commission in the book of John.This is the Apostles being commissioned for their great work ahead, I would advise anyone to read this passage more carefully and not just assume that the Apostles are recieving the Holy Spirit. Also these verses in John will dispel the oneness pentecostals theology of there being no Trinity! . So the Holy Sprit was already in them on the day of Pentecost. I believe that this was the presence of the Holy Spirit recieved at salvation. What then of this experience at Pentecost? Peter urges them to repent that they might recieve this gift of the Holy Spirit, promised to them and their children both near and far (verses 38-39). The concept of this being a promised gift recieved after the gift of salvation is what then we must understand.
So far then:
1. I believe that the experience on the day of Pentecost was something separate from the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in salvation.
2. I believe that on the day of Pentecost the church was given the power to reach the world, as promised and prophesied by Christ. I believe that in this the church recieved all the giftings that we speak of.
3. I believe that also on that day was the prophecy of Joel fulfilled that the Holy Spirit would be poured out on the many rather than the few. I believe, based on what Peter said about their children near and far that this was an ongoing prophecy that would be fulfilled continiously.
So, there's the start. What say thee?

Ok lets have a look at what you think is a double baptism of the Spirit.

So what is the relationship of verse 22 and the later descent of the Holy Spirit?

As you have stated and many others, they say that this would suggest 2 givings of the Holy Spirit? However this is unlikely, this is more of an anticipation of the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, although as 'Guthrie' quite rightly says, some preliminary bestowel is implied in the context (the verb used is the ordinary word for "breathed") .

Clearly the disciples did not at this point recieve the full endowment, for they were still lacking in the power which came at Pentecost. The Giving of the Spirit here was linked with the forgiving of sins (23). The promise was given here to the whole group of disciples (the verb is plural). Although it is not in human power to forgive sins, the preaching of the gospel proclaims such forgivness. The verbs are in the passive (you know Greek Charis so you will know this) which suggests that it is God who is acting. Those who do not respond to the preaching of the Gospel are left in their sins (Gr. 'are retained'), which the Niv has translated 'not forgiven', with this promise cf. Mt 16:19-19; 18:18-19.

The church was born at Pentecost, or should we say the New covenant came with Power on Pentecost, with Christ's obedience, death, rising and ascension the Kingdom was truly innaugurated. and the power of this was at that great day Pentecost. from now on, man will be born of the Spirit (John 3) this is what is meant by John the baptizer, ''He will baptise with the Spirit''.

As we can see in Lukes two part book (Luke/Acts) the Apostles and disciples still did not understand the significance of Christ, they where still thinking in terms of the anticipated Jewish Messiah. In Acts 1, Christ spends a great deal of time with them, explaining the Kingdom of God.

Pentecost and forward does not show a theology thatis now widely prevailant amongst the pentecostal groups. Its shows the Kingdom of God, the New Covenant coming in power, spreading from :

Jerusalem, to

Samaria (Hated cousins of the Jews)

Gentiles (the Dogs,, us!)



The day of Pentecost does not show, the usage of tongues as Pentecostals believe.. read it again. the people empowered by the Spirit in this New Covenant Kingdom, where speaking foreign languages. read the whole text and not a couple of verses.

The next big thing we see with the Spirit, is the Samaritans!! wow this is a biggy, where they trying to tel the Jewish believers in Jerusalem that these filth bags are gonna be included also. This was the proof, a couple of Apostle went and through the APOSTLES the Samaritans where now open to be included into the vine. next the gentiles.. do I really need to go on????

As I say, you have pointed to a couple of verses and given a few opinions with really understanding really what was happening, how important these events really where to the Jewish Christians.

Phil

 

[MahogonySnail]

You have made one mistake, in trying to make a point Mahogony.... I believe in the use of tongues.. I have never said I havent!!!!

Show me where I said you didn't?

Your debate about women wearing heading coverings is really laughable Mahogony. I thought you of all people would have had more sense.

Perhaps you could explain why your church is disorderly in permitting women to speak? I can't believe someone who lives by scripture would overlook such a plain verse right in the middle of the same chapter of the bit about tongues:

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but theyarecommanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.


You still have not disproven that if 100 people in church pray in tongues at once that is the church being edified through use of the gift:

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

So many people edifying themselves is the same result as edifying the church.


And if God is such a God of order then why did He allow such a noisy and confused babbling at Pentecost and later on too when the gentiles received the Spirit?

 

[phil36]

Show me where I said you didn't? You implied it Mahogony.





Perhaps you could explain why your church is disorderly in permitting women to speak? I can't believe someone who lives by scripture would overlook such a plain verse right in the middle of the same chapter of the bit about tongues: Can I explain why my Church?? I am assuming you personally know what the Church I go to, belives and doesnt.. you obviously do? Secondly, you are trying to mush the debate, with somthing other than what we are talking about. Start another thread on women wearing head coverings if you want, but please stick to the discussion. your going of in tangents is only a disruptive measure on your part.

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but theyarecommanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. Yes that is what it says, and do you know what Paul was answering? your the one with 2 degerees not me Of course you do know the answer don't you Mahogony? start a seperate thread if you don't.

Now lets get down to the real issue and not silly games.


You still have not disproven that if 100 people in church pray in tongues at once that is the church being edified through use of the gift: Its a no brainer and a leading and loaded question.

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. Now you are being plain silly, as I believe in tongues, so you are really wasting your time trying to use this one. I do not believe and refute the pentecostal belief you do realize that this verse is talking of a Spiritual tongue and NOT the evangelistic languge of Acts 2:1-13

You may not want my advice, but a good commentary or 2 will help you understand scripture a bit better, maybe even going to church and listen to a good preacher!
So many people edifying themselves is the same result as edifying the church. Again you have plainly not read the text, does Paul say that it is everyone.. NO

Again, you have proven you do not know what Paul is answering, I assume you do not know what Paul was writing this letter for and the What he was correcting? I have more than proven. your are postulating opinions with a wrong explanation of scripture, I know you don't mean to, but non the less you are wrong. read what Paul says. and read above!


And if God is such a God of order then why did He allow such a noisy and confused babbling at Pentecost and later on too when the gentiles received the Spirit? And secondly, where did I talk about order, I said rambling and Babling, please stop making things up Mahogony. Again I will say, buy yourself a couple of good commentaries, even better join a church and be taught.

Anyhow Mahogony just read my post above.

I am amazed that you try and amalgamate what happens in Pentecost and Paul's teaching on tongues, to the man who speaks them (not everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).



Phil

 

[MahogonySnail]

Show me where I said you didn't? You implied it Mahogony.

So you have a gift of mind reading or something ? . I have not implied anything about your beliefs on whether it exists or not.

I know from past discussions your claims that you are not cessationist but I am questioningd whether you and your church are practicing the full extent of Paul's instructions:
- no public tongues without interpretation
-the seeking and use of prophecy (the use of prophecy should be more frequent than the use of public tongues)
- the restrictions placed on women speaking in the church.

Is it that your church's full obedience to these instructions of Paul and your personal active involvement in interpretation of tongues and prophecy, make your church so much better than the pentecostal ones you speak of?

Yes that is what it says, and do you know what Paul was answering? your the one with 2 degerees not me Of course you do know the answer don't you Mahogony? start a seperate thread if you don't.

I believe I have already heard all the excuses people and church's use to disobey this one command of Paul's. It really makes a mockery of God's Word when you insist churches obey one instruction in that chapter (about tongues), but explain away the others (about women and head coverings).

Now you are being plain silly, as I believe in tongues, so you are really wasting your time trying to use this one. I do not believe and refute the pentecostal belief you do realize that this verse is talking of a Spiritual tongue and NOT the evangelistic languge of Acts 2:1-13

There's no such thing as an evangelistic language although there's nothing stopping God using it as such on rare occasions. Tongues is a sign gift, not a preaching gift. Peter delivered the gospel message to all in a common language not in tongues. All they heard in tongues was magnifying and praising God, not the apostle's creed or the sinner's prayer.

You may not want my advice, but a good commentary or 2 will help you understand scripture a bit better, maybe even going to church and listen to a good preacher!

Correct, I wouldn't want advice from a person who obeys part of scripture but not all of it. It sort of justifies why a person shouldn't go to church if churches can't obey Paul's simple instructions about head coverings and women speaking in church. Just what are they teaching you in this church ??

So many people edifying themselves is the same result as edifying the church. Again you have plainly not read the text, does Paul say that it is everyone.. NO

Simple logic is, if 10 people speaking in tongues edifies themselves, then those 10 people are edified. If the 10 people are a church, then the whole church is edified by each person speaking in tongues individually. Paul is addressing a select few individuals who insisted on speaking in tongues without interpretation where the others could not understand. I don't believe it applies to a pentecostal church where EVERYONE or MOST in that church speaks in tongues. I also don't believe it applies if the church is already edified through other means eg preaching of the Word, prophesy. Tongues has many purposes and if a pentecostal church makes time in the service where everyone can speak in tongues at once and expressing themselves to God in this form of prayer or worship, I can't see how that is different to pentecost or why that is not edifying. If during worship a group of people wish to speak in tongues (babbling, as you call it) to express their heart to God, then that is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. But maybe your church full of elect and specially chosen individuals has figured out the right way to pray or worship and can teach the rest of us. That is, assuming your church also forbids women to speak/teach and promotes the wearing of head coverings.

And if God is such a God of order then why did He allow such a noisy and confused babbling at Pentecost and later on too when the gentiles received the Spirit? And secondly, where did I talk about order, I said rambling and Babling, please stop making things up Mahogony. Again I will say, buy yourself a couple of good commentaries, even better join a church and be taught.

You implied order Phil by your disagreement with babbling in church. If you disagree with babbling in church then what is your justification? Paul's justification was that it was disorderly.

You called it rambling and babbling. Would you also call Pentecost rambling and babbling? That's no way to mock a gift of the Holy Spirit which you claim to believe in.


And please tell me why I or anyone would wish to join a church to be taught such plain and obvious errors not to mention gain a general attitude that one is specially elect and chosen by God and the rest of unsaved mankind is predestined to hellfire ?

 

[phil36]

So you have a gift of mind reading or something ? . I have not implied anything about your beliefs on whether it exists or not. Is that a new gift? I can see how that one would be handy

I know from past discussions your claims that you are not cessationist, I have not claimed, I am not a cessationist, but you missed an important part..I am a Chareismatic..WITH MY SEAT BELT FIRMLY ON

.. but I am questioningd whether you and your church are practicing the full extent of Paul's instructions: I have never once said whether the church I go practice the gifts or not?? So do you not see the sillyness of trying to guess?
- no public tongues without interpretation
-the seeking and use of prophecy (the use of prophecy should be more frequent than the use of public tongues)
- the restrictions placed on women speaking in the church. Mahogony, you have totally ignored my previous post and still insist on posting nonsense.. if you want to discuss, women wearing head coverings , either start a new post or go to church and learn or consult a couple of good commentaries

Is it that your church's full obedience to these instructions of Paul and your personal active involvement in interpretation of tongues and prophecy, make your church so much better than the pentecostal ones you speak of? Nope, and this is an imature statement, simply because I can honestly and truthly say, you have made this up on what you think might be or might not be. of course do pentecotal churches demand women to wear head dress.. arent you being a bit silly and naive Mahogony. As I say start a new thread...on head coverings.

EVEN BETTER MAHOGONY START GOING TO CHURCH instead of being one of those grumpy grumblers moaning about everything.



I believe I have already heard all the excuses people and church's use to disobey this one command of Paul's. It really makes a mockery of God's Word when you insist churches obey one instruction in that chapter (about tongues), but explain away the others (about women and head coverings). you are grumbling again, another do it alone Christian compalining how all Christians have it wrong in Church. I will repeat this again.. just for you Mahogony.. I believe in tongues so what really is your point except expelling hot air?





There's no such thing as an evangelistic language although there's nothing stopping God using it as such on rare occasions. Tongues is a sign gift, not a preaching gift. Peter delivered the gospel message to all in a common language not in tongues. Mahogony please read the verses I said, you have conveniently left out the crowds who did, as you very well know that All they heard in tongues was magnifying and praising God, not the apostle's creed or the sinner's prayer. Lol no one said the creeds or sinners prayer.. that is your sarcasm and nothing else.

lol, it took me a while to catch on what the commentators meant by this. evangelistic language is an expression, to explain Acts 2, I would suggest you read the end of Luke and the begining of Acts, to see what exactly is happening. anyhow you don't have to.




Correct, I wouldn't want advice from a person who obeys part of scripture but not all of it. It sort of justifies why a person shouldn't go to church if churches can't obey Paul's simple instructions about head coverings and women speaking in church. Just what are they teaching you in this church ??

So are you saying you believe women should wear head coverings?? don't answer that hear start a new thread.. for you seem to have a major gripe about women wearing coverings.




Simple logic is, if 10 people speaking in tongues edifies themselves, then those 10 people are edified. If the 10 people are a church, then the whole church is edified by each person speaking in tongues individually. Paul is addressing a select few individuals who insisted on speaking in tongues without interpretation where the others could not understand. I don't believe it applies to a pentecostal church where EVERYONE or MOST in that church speaks in tongues. I also don't believe it applies if the church is already edified through other means eg preaching of the Word, prophesy. Tongues has many purposes and if a pentecostal church makes time in the service where everyone can speak in tongues at once and expressing themselves to God in this form of prayer or worship, I can't see how that is different to pentecost or why that is not edifying. If during worship a group of people wish to speak in tongues (babbling, as you call it) to express their heart to God, then that is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. But maybe your church full of elect and specially chosen individuals has figured out the right way to pray or worship and can teach the rest of us. That is, assuming your church also forbids women to speak/teach and promotes the wearing of head coverings. here you go again, im laughing my head of here at the sillyness of this, I will say it again, I believe in tongues and the gifts.

H




You implied order Phil by your disagreement with babbling in church. If you disagree with babbling in church then what is your justification? Paul's justification was that it was disorderly.

You called it rambling and babbling. Would you also call Pentecost rambling and babbling? That's no way to mock a gift of the Holy Spirit which you claim to believe in.


And please tell me why I or anyone would wish to join a church to be taught such plain and obvious errors not to mention gain a general attitude that one is specially elect and chosen by God and the rest of unsaved mankind is predestined to hellfire ?

I will once again say, I believe pentecostals are my brothers and sisters in Christ the son of the Trinity. they are born again, and I love them. I jsy t disagree with one Doctrine which I can see no real Scriptural proof for.




All you have done is show that you do not understand the 'polemic' at hand.. I am not against tongues. it is the doctrine of something else, however this involves tongues.

Phil

 

[phil36]

Anyhow Mahogony,

I am now going to stop replying to you on this thread as it is starting to get out of hand.

you are now trying to bring in head coverings for women into the equation, yet you do not know what the debate is about. I do feel sad, for sometimes i sense a real bitterness from you about church and going to church.Im not sure why, and you could say 'its none of my business' but as a brother I think we should worry for each other.

Anyhow..bro, I still love ya

Phil

 

[MahogonySnail]

you are grumbling again, another do it alone Christian compalining how all Christians have it wrong in Church.

That's right because you're in Babylon and loving it and don't even know it.

EVEN BETTER MAHOGONY START GOING TO CHURCH instead of being one of those grumpy grumblers moaning about everything.

Haven't you been moaning about pentecostal churches?

Mahogony, you have totally ignored my previous post and still insist on posting nonsense.. if you want to discuss, women wearing head coverings , either start a new post or go to church and learn or consult a couple of good commentaries

Maybe they'll tell me how I'm a special elect chosen one and God has chosen everyone else to go to hell, as they tend to do in Calvinistic churches. If church is the problem, why should anyone go there to seek solutions?

Anyway Phil does your church not or do practice the gifts?

 

[phil36]

That's right because you're in Babylon and loving it and don't even know it.



Haven't you been moaning about pentecostal churches?




Maybe they'll tell me how I'm a special elect chosen one and God has chosen everyone else to go to hell, as they tend to do in Calvinistic churches. If church is the problem, why should anyone go there to seek solutions?

Anyway Phil does your church not or do practice the gifts?

Have a nice evening Mahogony.

Phil

 

[MahogonySnail]

What's better, a church which uses the gifts in the wrong way..
or a church which doesn't use the gifts at all?

Neither!

Church is fine if you want to be indoctrinated into your favourite brand of christianity.
Not so good for being taught truth.
Pentecostals will take your money, non-pentecostals will take your soul. Hmm tough choice.

 

[pickles]

Hi Pickles,

I think people are wrongly assuming I do not believe in Tongues this is false. I agree as to what Paul said. Paul did not not say everyone will have this gift and neither does the rest of Scripture. so we should be very careful about things that sound wonderful and feel wonderful. I could eat cream cakes and pies everyday, they are wonderful but eating like that it will kill me prematurely

So, so that everyone knows, I do not deny the gifts of the Spirit, I believe God heals, but yet it seems to be secondary compared to the healings in the Bible.. the Apostles spoke and there was instant healing...instant! I believe God still heals but as you have rightly shown it is through earnest and continuing prayer. that is the norm.


Phil

No worries phil, I dont think you disbelieve in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
I just shared what I know. Also, I am one to test everything, sometimes more thatn needed.
There are times though when you know, test always, but you know that Our Lord God is present.
My belief is that if it is given by God and witnessed to in the scriptures, always test, then it is.
I think the bigger issue is that often we can put the part of a teaching as the whole. Making one thing bigger than it should be.
Also what Jesus has put on the heart of one indivigual is sometimes not meant for all.
One body many parts is a good scripture for this.
God bless, pickles

 

[pickles]

What's better, a church which uses the gifts in the wrong way..
or a church which doesn't use the gifts at all?

Neither!

Church is fine if you want to be indoctrinated into your favourite brand of christianity.
Not so good for being taught truth.
Pentecostals will take your money, non-pentecostals will take your soul. Hmm tough choice.

Hi Mahogony, this is one of those times when I wish I could find scripture on call.
I just read last night, I believe it was eph., where Paul was speaking to the complaints of some about others not teaching correctly. Paul said that those that are for us cannot be against us.
Ill try to find it again.
The thing is that if all is of a true and pure heart I believe that God Our Father will work with it and make it right. I think there was word on this in one of Pauls letters as well.
Now I agree if there is a greavious error that it should be spoken to, but if one has faith, and a heart for God, it seems the weak faith would say God cannot make all glorify him.
Didnt this also happen where Jesus spoke to this as well, one of the Apostles asked about a man that was casting out evil spirits, Jesus also said that he is for us.
Sorry I cannot quote, but Ill look for the scriptures if you need me to.
God bless, pickles

 

[Consumed]

so do you say its better not to go at all then?? better is one day in the house of the Lord than a thousand in the world

 

[MahogonySnail]

God believes in true believers separating themselves from the ungodly, lest we share in their sins and judgements:

2Th 3:14 And if anyone does not obey our word by this letter, mark that one and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

1Co 5:11 But now I have written to you not to associate intimately, if any man called a brother and is either a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one not to eat.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins joined together, even up to Heaven, and God has remembered her unjust deeds.



2Jn 1:9 Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house, nor speak a greeting to him.
2Jn 1:11 For he who speaks a greeting to him is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

[VW]

God believes in true believers separating themselves from the ungodly, lest we share in their sins and judgements:

2Th 3:14 And if anyone does not obey our word by this letter, mark that one and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

1Co 5:11 But now I have written to you not to associate intimately, if any man called a brother and is either a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one not to eat.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins joined together, even up to Heaven, and God has remembered her unjust deeds.



2Jn 1:9 Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house, nor speak a greeting to him.
2Jn 1:11 For he who speaks a greeting to him is partaker of his evil deeds.

Not very often we see 2nd John quoted. You are right snail. We are called to come out from them. A little leaven makes the whole lump to be leavened.

Our faith is a strange thing, in that we have freedom, very much freedom as the children of God; but at the same time, we have an identity which is absolute, complete, inarguable, without compromise; and that identity is Jesus in us, by His Holy Spirit.

We cannot be separated from all who are in the world, lest we must leave the world altogether. And as we are in the world as those who carry in us this precious gift, we should let this gift be seen for what it is, Christ in us, the hope of glory. But by the same token, as John so plainly stated, we must not associate with those who do not have the same regard for this doctrine, because there is compromise in this leavening, and it will compromise everyone who is in association with it.

 

[Consumed]

i suppose the doctrine of christ is what denomination says it is or the simplier application of who beleives that Jesus is the Son of God, concieved by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin mary, suffered under pontious pilote, was crucified and buried, He rose on the third day to sit at the right hand of God the Father, thats the doctrine of Jesus i thought that He preached, Paul gave revelation on how to live accordingly and the way to conduct church, for if we try and take specks out instead of our own planks we miss the whole meaning of being in communion with God.

So let me get this right, if someone believed in say "calvanists doctrine" and another didnt then you would have no fellowship with them other than condemn them for being a calvanist, (i only use calvin as an example) or say a Lutheran, or anglican, or a RC or Methodist or a pentacostal, well we can start blacking out Jesus' prayer for unity then in the Gospel of John, no, i'll pass on the twist on scripture,

two disciples come to Jesus and said there was a man down the road "casting out demons" in Jesus' name and they rebuked him for doing so, Jesus response was??? Was the man for or against Jesus, He did answer that with His reply. We wrestle not against flesh and blood , the devil is the enemy. Jesus didnt come to condemn but save. We there is unity God commands a blessing over.

Now im not saying i agree with all denominations with their doctrine however i stand with them for one simple fact, they seek Jesus to be their Lord, Jesus can do all the judging on judgement day, in the meantime i choose Jesus' way, always the most fruitful.

 

[VW]

When doctrine takes away the teaching of Jesus, namely that we have the call to walk in the Spirit of God in order to be pleasing to Him, and the doctrine of grace, in other words, that we are to enter into the presence of God, ourselves, often, to become more like Him, then I cannot support that doctrine, nor those who follow this doctrine. And I cannot be in fellowship with them. I do not condemn them, I pray for them, but I do not partake of their doctrine, because it is debilitating to my spiritual life which is found in the Spirit of Christ.

 

[pickles]

God believes in true believers separating themselves from the ungodly, lest we share in their sins and judgements:

2Th 3:14 And if anyone does not obey our word by this letter, mark that one and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

1Co 5:11 But now I have written to you not to associate intimately, if any man called a brother and is either a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one not to eat.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins joined together, even up to Heaven, and God has remembered her unjust deeds.



2Jn 1:9 Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house, nor speak a greeting to him.
2Jn 1:11 For he who speaks a greeting to him is partaker of his evil deeds.

I agree with all that you posted here. But these speak to those that not only reject the doturine of Jesus but are filled with corruption.
I see the debate here being about how each accepts the teachings of Jesus. This is the same debate that separated the church. Jesus said docturine would divide his church.
Im tring to understand why these different interpitations hold so much power to separate each church, rather than bring together.
I look at each here and see how each ones faith gives them an understanding that is good in Jesus.
Through sharing and witnessing to what Jesus has put on each ones heart it helps to build up the other.
I keep thinking of how Jesus said when two or more come together in my name my presance is there.
I keep thinking how it is said one body, many parts, each having a perpose, creating the whole body.
This has shown me that none of us has the whole, we each carry a part of understanding, if we humble ourselves and honor each other above ourselves then we might just share in the whole truth in Jesus.
Im not thying to say this is just you or anyone else here. But overall in the body of Jesus how this separates us.
Its just as I read each post I gleen from their words and witness a part of the whole truth in Jesus.
One can look at this in two ways, Only I know the truth and way and all others do not.
Or each has a good understanding and by recieving what each witnesses to I can share in the whole body in Jesus.
Just as each church does this, one focuses on the Holy Spirit and understanding the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Another the mercy of Jesus and witnessing his forgivness in order to convert.
Another on works ,and so on.
Again, I am not justifying corruption here, all should follow the teachings of Jesus Our Lord.
But I see each church having a piece that they carry, sometimes to the place where they call others wrong. How does this bare fruit?
I know this is a bit long.
But I believe if we look to and instead of critisizing, listen, we all would benefit.
I believe that if another is following Jesus, living in his teachings, that he is for us. Not against us.
That all would be better in Jesus, if we came togerther in his name, honoring each other above oursleves .
We all may just see what the other is saying and learn or better understand why they have a difficulty.
Thus through understanding are better able to address and witness to that spacific difficulty.
And just to make sure I cover this part, yes there are times we are called to correct in scripture.
Thanks for taking the time to read this, I hope what I am trying to say is understood.
God bless, pickles

 

[PeaceBeUponYou]

We all talk about Salvation, each with our own slants and prejudices. But what exactly is the "Good News"?

What is the Good News?

In Love

Phil

P.S, I mistyped the title should be 'What'

About what are they asking one another? About the great news. That over which they are in disagreement. No! They are going to know.Then, no! They are going to know. Have We not made the earth a resting place? And the mountains as stakes? And We created you in pairs, And made your sleep [a means for] rest And made the night as clothing And made the day for livelihood And constructed above you seven strong [heavens]And made [therein] a burning lamp [the Sun] And sent down, from the rain clouds, pouring water That We may bring forth thereby grain and vegetation And gardens of entwined growth. Indeed, the Day of Judgement is an appointed time. The Day the Horn is blown and you will come forth in multitudes And the heaven is opened and will become gateways ...etc...
[Chapter 78]

Hey guys, i really felt the need to share it with you, since it fits with the thread discussion
here is a link if you wanna have it full and with melody
YouTube - Surah an-Naba with English Translation Subtitles Bilal Assad

Peace be upon you