Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

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Guojing

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It was Billy Graham who is on record as saying that he believed that on any given Sunday morning as much as 80% of congregates in his denomination sitting in the pews were not even born again. And even though he and I both know that he can not know everyone's hearts, he had a reason for saying it being very familiar with his denomination. It is the same experience I have had through the years. I found the opposite stats with the Assemblies of God, more like 20% not really born again. The only difference between the Southern Baptist and the AOG is their interpretation of The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Gifts of the Spirit and that a backslider can go to hell. Almost everything else is the same.

I believe that the pentecostal doctrines contribute to lifestyles that are completely surrendered to Christ. Thus holiness and no compromise is the norm. There are always acceptations but they get fired from ministry positions.
Billy Graham is probably the most well known minister for his doctrine that "The gospel of John and his epistles" are the most important books any Christians should use for their Christian life.

Since John is the one that mainly talks about "born again", and there are plenty of verses in 1 John that linked born again to "obeying the commandments", this conclusion by him is to be expected.

https://billygrahamlibrary.org/final-exam-7-questions-to-see-where-we-stand/
 

SoulWeaver

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The glass is a mirror. The bible is like a mirror to ourselves and allows us to fully know God and ourselves. Hence 'face to face'

In part.. progressing revelation of God's word at the time.. thru gifts of tongues,prophecy and knowledge..

The Word completed ..the tools were put away to reveal it. This completion is the perfect thing, or that which is perfect.

Perfect meaning 'lacking nothing'
'Complete' 'mature'

The clanging symbols in Corinthians were about the Corinthian church. They were exercising the gifts wrongly.. disordered. The disciples weren't in the same boat. Not a fair comparison
I'm sorry to say, but that was really weak and does not satisfy the requirements given. You don't "know God as you are known" or "see God face to face" through a book even if canon was closed later. Honestly, that's a weak argument, and is not convincing at all. If anything, we saw less of Jesus face to face than they did.
 

SoulWeaver

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It might be prophecy yes.

Its just like now, when God still does miraculous healings in the Body of Christ, but they are no longer a sign for anything.
Prophecy is listed as one of the 9 gifts.
 

Guojing

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Prophecy is listed as one of the 9 gifts.
True, you do agree, however, that the book of Revelation has closed the canon on new prophecies right?

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 

SoulWeaver

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True, you do agree, however, that the book of Revelation has closed the canon on new prophecies right?

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I don't. This is an assumption; you don't have a certain case. It's something you might choose to believe but can't prove. Just like the assumption with healing that Paul "lost the gift". He's speaking of his own scroll as words he received came directly from God, and he is aware of their weight. This is not just prophetic admonishment or teaching or anything like that, it's full blown prophecy. While you make assumption on one side for the sake of your argument, I think you go far if you really dismiss book of Revelation as gift of prophecy... So I'm not sure if there's any use in going through this issue further... Canon was nonexistent and not in the making at the time, they were busy spreading the Gospel, not making a religion. In fact, they were expecting the events to follow up the book of Revelation so quickly, that they didn't think penning the life of Jesus would be needed. The Gospels were written so late, and were written because the return of Christ didn't happen as quickly as the apostles expected, they thought Jesus would return during their lifetime.
 

SoulWeaver

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I'm sorry to say, but that was really weak and does not satisfy the requirements given. You don't "know God as you are known" or "see God face to face" through a book even if canon was closed later. Honestly, that's a weak argument, and is not convincing at all. If anything, we saw less of Jesus face to face than they did.
Man am I disappointed. Is there no better explanation or idea you guys can offer on this to defend your position? You genuinely believe seeing God face to face and knowing Him as intimately as we are known consist of buying and reading a book about God? And we see Him better face to face by reading a book while the apostles He taught directly and personally didn't see Him? Forgive me but that's seriously underwhelming to put it mildly. Please come up with something more believable.
 

Guojing

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I don't. This is an assumption; you don't have a certain case. It's something you might choose to believe but can't prove. Just like the assumption with healing that Paul "lost the gift". He's speaking of his own scroll as words he received came directly from God, and he is aware of their weight. This is not just prophetic admonishment or teaching or anything like that, it's full blown prophecy. While you make assumption on one side for the sake of your argument, I think you go far if you really dismiss book of Revelation as gift of prophecy... So I'm not sure if there's any use in going through this issue further... Canon was nonexistent and not in the making at the time, they were busy spreading the Gospel, not making a religion. In fact, they were expecting the events to follow up the book of Revelation so quickly, that they didn't think penning the life of Jesus would be needed. The Gospels were written so late, and were written because the return of Christ didn't happen as quickly as the apostles expected, they thought Jesus would return during their lifetime.
No, I am saying, when John finish writing the book of Revelation, he stated that there will be no more prophecies after that

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

I am not dismissing Revelation as prophecy. How do you get that conclusion?
 

SoulWeaver

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No, I am saying, when John finish writing the book of Revelation, he stated that there will be no more prophecies after that

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

I am not dismissing Revelation as prophecy. How do you get that conclusion?
The text says "the prophecy of *this book*". Not all books of the Bible contain prophecy, namely epistles mostly contain doctrine exposition, and there are other books in the Bible that are not prophecy books, like Ecclesiastes. It's most plausible to me that John is talking about the very scroll he's just completed. He wasn't sending people a Septuagint. I am not convinced this had to do anything with canonical compilation that will happen centuries later. If makes no sense to point "this book" and talk about something inexistent.

I concluded that you are dismissing it as valid gift of prophecy by comparing it to healing, and you earlier dismissed healing if it's not in a certain way. I do apologize if I jumped to conclusion.
 

SoulWeaver

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No, I am saying, when John finish writing the book of Revelation, he stated that there will be no more prophecies after that

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
so in conclusion I see the warning as about meddling with the contents of the book of Revelation. He's talking about "the prophecy of this book" that he newly delivered. He's not talking about some plurality of Bible prophecies here. He's only referencing his own book. There are no similar warnings in other texts John authored, because this one was produced by a special divine experience and I believe his reverence prompted him to insert that commentary. This doesn't prove that all prophecy stopped, or that this was some "final" prophecy, especially as Biblical canon was not even in the making so there was nothing even in the making to add to or subtract from or discuss, the only thing that can be called "this book" is the individual little book John is holding. Some might infer or personally believe that the verse means all prophecy stopped. This is an opinion, and I believe it's poorly substantiated because of the above.
 

Guojing

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so in conclusion I see the warning as about meddling with the contents of the book of Revelation. He's talking about "the prophecy of this book" that he newly delivered. He's not talking about some plurality of Bible prophecies here. He's only referencing his own book. There are no similar warnings in other texts John authored, because this one was produced by a special divine experience and I believe his reverence prompted him to insert that commentary. This doesn't prove that all prophecy stopped, or that this was some "final" prophecy, especially as Biblical canon was not even in the making so there was nothing even in the making to add to or subtract from or discuss, the only thing that can be called "this book" is the individual little book John is holding. Some might infer or personally believe that the verse means all prophecy stopped. This is an opinion, and I believe it's poorly substantiated because of the above.
So if you believe prophecies are still to be uttered today, what exactly are examples of these types?
 

SoulWeaver

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So if you believe prophecies are still to be uttered today, what exactly are examples of these types?
I saw it happen on small scale. Typically, person will tell something will happen because people are not listening to God usually, nobody will believe them because it seems impossible, even laugh, but that thing later happens exactly as said as judgment of God is delivered.

But more often I have witnessed other gifts in action.

Say, Word of knowledge (a person will know things about another supernaturally through the Spirit, without physically learning them, like Jesus knew about the Samaritan woman at the well and just like in that case it is revealed for God's purpose, so they would pray for that person or be used to have them believe and repent of something, usually the thing that is revealed. I met a few believers who are well known to have this gift),

Or, Faith (very different than saving measure of faith, this when you supernaturally have 100% assurance, per example... that someone will live who is in danger of death, you don't just trust God, you supernaturally know by God without any shadow of a doubt that they will live, and they live),

Or, Word of wisdom (this is NOT merely wise counsel; this is knowing from above exactly what to do to in order to resolve a solution, an example would be what Gideon did to win the battle, or Isaac's servant's method that he used to pick Rebecca)

Or, Discerning of spirits (when a believer knows exactly by which spirit is someone operating and where is something coming from, direct insight into the Spirit correctly assessing things and surpassing, often contradicting external appearances)

Etc,

In my experience, even people who deny spiritual gifts operate in them just without knowing that they do, because it was given to every man for profit. You might have recognized yourself or some believers you know, in some of what I listed. And the reason why all this will pass away is because partial insights and guidance will not be needed any more upon entering the final unity with God and being in unison with His mind. This is only to help believers out while we're here.
 

Guojing

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I saw it happen on small scale. Typically, person will tell something will happen because people are not listening to God usually, nobody will believe them because it seems impossible, even laugh, but that thing later happens exactly as said as judgment of God is delivered.

But more often I have witnessed other gifts in action.

Say, Word of knowledge (a person will know things about another supernaturally through the Spirit, without physically learning them, like Jesus knew about the Samaritan woman at the well and just like in that case it is revealed for God's purpose, so they would pray for that person or be used to have them believe and repent of something, usually the thing that is revealed. I met a few believers who are well known to have this gift),

Or, Faith (very different than saving measure of faith, this when you supernaturally have 100% assurance, per example... that someone will live who is in danger of death, you don't just trust God, you supernaturally know by God without any shadow of a doubt that they will live, and they live),

Or, Word of wisdom (this is NOT merely wise counsel; this is knowing from above exactly what to do to in order to resolve a solution, an example would be what Gideon did to win the battle, or Isaac's servant's method that he used to pick Rebecca)

Or, Discerning of spirits (when a believer knows exactly by which spirit is someone operating and where is something coming from, direct insight into the Spirit correctly assessing things and surpassing, often contradicting external appearances)

Etc,

In my experience, even people who deny spiritual gifts operate in them just without knowing that they do, because it was given to every man for profit. You might have recognized yourself or some believers you know, in some of what I listed. And the reason why all this will pass away is because partial insights and guidance will not be needed any more upon entering the final unity with God and being in unison with His mind. This is only to help believers out while we're here.
In this thread, I specifically talk about sign gifts.

All sign gifts are spiritual but not all spiritual gifts are signs.
 

SoulWeaver

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In this thread, I specifically talk about sign gifts.

All sign gifts are spiritual but not all spiritual gifts are signs.
Would supernaturally knowing something about a person they haven't revealed to people, and then telling them in context of God, not be a sign to someone who doesn't believe?
 

Guojing

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Would supernaturally knowing something about a person they haven't revealed to people, and then telling them in context of God, not be a sign to someone who doesn't believe?
Same as resurrecting someone from the dead right? But, as I stated in my OP, signs were always for Israel.

When we reach out to unbelievers, we are not to rely on signs now. If God wanted us to do that, he would have given them to us too.
 

SoulWeaver

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Same as resurrecting someone from the dead right? But, as I stated in my OP, signs were always for Israel.

When we reach out to unbelievers, we are not to rely on signs now. If God wanted us to do that, he would have given them to us too.
Signs aside for a sec, can you clarify... Do you believe gifts have ceased or not? You seem to deny and recognize their activity at the same time, unless I'm misunderstanding. Also, regardless of what I think, why do you think a recipient of a sign cannot be Jewish nowadays?
 

Guojing

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Signs aside for a sec, can you clarify... Do you believe gifts have ceased or not? You seem to deny and recognize their activity at the same time, unless I'm misunderstanding. Also, regardless of what I think, why do you think a recipient of a sign cannot be Jewish nowadays?
I already stated many times, God can and still heal today.

I am saying the healings that Jesus did in the 4 Gospels were signs testifying him as Israel's Messiah, in my point 2 and 3.

It would be wrong for the Body of Christ to look at those examples, and use them to "generate faith" to believe that Christ can still heal them today.

Today, Paul teaches us in the Body of Christ, how to pray to God for everything, including when we are sick, in Philippians 4:6-7

6Be anxious for nothing, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.…

We are told to present our requests, with thanksgiving. Paul will not teach us to claim "By your stripes I am healed", "as he is, so am I in this world" etc etc

We are promised the peace of God, which pass even our own understanding, we are not promised healing.
 
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Faith not belief. Faith come by hearing the word of God. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I have faith that Noah built an ark because God’s word says so. I do not need physical evidence. That’s faith. Jews did not walk by faith but by sight. Jews need evidence, a sign to believe the message.
Then your faith is a sign gift isn't it?
 
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Jews did not walk by faith but by sight. Jews need evidence, a sign to believe the message.
Not the message so much but divine power attached to the message..Your faith Is evidence for Noah's ark.
 

SoulWeaver

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I already stated many times, God can and still heal today.

I am saying the healings that Jesus did in the 4 Gospels were signs testifying him as Israel's Messiah, in my point 2 and 3.

It would be wrong for the Body of Christ to look at those examples, and use them to "generate faith" to believe that Christ can still heal them today.

Today, Paul teaches us in the Body of Christ, how to pray to God for everything, including when we are sick, in Philippians 4:6-7

6Be anxious for nothing, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.…

We are told to present our requests, with thanksgiving. Paul will not teach us to claim "By your stripes I am healed", "as he is, so am I in this world" etc etc

We are promised the peace of God, which pass even our own understanding, we are not promised healing.
I don't believe that the gift of healing ever worked by believer "generating" stuff, in fact I don't believe you believe that either... I somehow don't like how you worded that whole sentence... I do believe it's definitely a problem when people put physical well being before the kingdom of God and even disparage fellow believers for not successfully getting physically healthy, but that being said, it somehow sounds wrong to say, "Jesus does not heal anymore today" or "we are not promised healing". We are (please bear with me, as I've given disclaimer). God cannot lie, dualist dissection of body and soul is not Biblical. He either heals or He doesn't (not saying bodily healing will happen in each case but is true in general that God heals in all various ways). And there are still people, rare but they exist, who lay hands, and people do get healed. Prayer was also surely involved in laying on hands to begin with, as is now. I don't think the signs are full blown booming as while the apostles lived, but I saw some evidence that they still happen. Tongues in a foreign language and the person converting thanks to this - yes, this still happens, rarely, but it happens. God will not be showering the world for ever like it was abundantly done with Jesus and the apostles, but also His grace will always endure and He will never leave us either. I guess that's my response to your thread title. I just realized I haven't really responded to it, we discussed gifts in general. Signs may be less commonly seen nowadays. But if we critically examine that, are they really less common? In nowadays' global world, it may look so. Compare that to the times of apostles - I'm sure the propaganda was going all over Israel that they were liars and fakes and that people should just stick to the scriptures and manifestation was looked down upon (like nowadays). But manifestation account is condensed in the Bible because the Bible chooses to focus on it. But it does make sense that such events dramatically decreased after Paul gave up convincing them in the sinagogue. I just don't think it ever completely stopped. God might temporarily leave us to our devices but He never does so for too long.
 

SoulWeaver

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What do you do with signs given for the sake of others? That venomous snake bite that turned out harmless wasn't given for Jews. How then to be fully convinced "those who believe not" refer to Jews only?