Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
4,428
2,061
113
If the "gifts" have slowed, the problem is never on His end, it is always down here.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
17,208
1,729
113
At the same time the counterfeit is one of the main ways Satan deceives. I think I mentioned the rampant failed prophecies spewed by the mainstream charismatic churches. All you have to do is flip on the TV.
Trust me I know all to well about this, when I was a new believer I had yet to gain spiritual discernment and so many so called prophets on youtube damaged me severely it isn't hard to make a prophetic mention or supposed word from the Lord and so many people will easily follow such people and it absolutely infuriates me how people can so blantently claim to speak for God disregarding the damage they are doing to those who follow them taking the words of God so cheaply when they are holy and sacred

Anyone who desires to walk in the gift of prophecy and anyone who claims to be a prophet better count the cost because they more than anyone will be held accountable for the words they speak. You don't choose to be a prophet or walk in the gift of prophecy and you have too learn how to know his voice how to separate his v oice from your own or from the enemies when one is given the gift they learn how to recognize that flow of the spirit they don't normally know or understand what they are saying they just follow the river

to be honest the gift of prophecy dreams visions and the prophet itself is a very fascinating and very indepth topic it would require an entire thread just to explain it all.
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
527
149
43
65
We all know, that the ones who primarily cling to the idea of Supernatural gifts still existing today are the Charismatics. They also teach "individual" Spirit Baptism, which is not Biblical. No individual was ever baptized by are into the Holy Spirit according to the book of Acts. Check it out for yourself. Baptism in the Holy Spirit always occurred collectively. First upon the Jewish believers in Jerusalem and then later upon the Gentiles. The two aspects of baptism, placing all believers into the one and same Universal Assembly which Christ is building. The Pauline epistles, when dealing with this subject, are always looking back to these events.

As to the "gifts" of the Spirit, we still possess the ordinary gifts, as God gives to each the ability to Love the brethren, to Preach, to teach, to heal (as one does as a physician), each as the Lord sees fit.

However as to the extraordinary gifts, these have passed away for now and will be seen again as the Kingdom approaches. The apostle Paul said:
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Let's examine these two verses for a moment. The immediate context is, we know in part and prophesy in part. The Scriptures were still being written. The entire revelation of God, to man, was still unfinished. Signs and wonders followed Christ's ministry to show He was the Son of God and they followed the infant church to show this assembly was a work of God. In verse 10, many say this points to the coming of the Lord, "But when that which is perfect is come.....", however, this view is not supported by the immediate context. The Greek word translated "PERFECT", comes from the word τέλειος and primarily means: "Complete, full or mature". In the immediate context, Paul was talking about the completion of Holy Scripture. When it is completed our knowing "in part" (v.10), will be done away with.

In this same way, the extraordinary gifts will cease as the revelation of God is completed. Once Scripture is complete, then the need for signs and wonders is rendered null. We know that Scripture is complete and nothing more will be added or taken away. This is not to say that miracles don't take place in God's Providence, they certainly do. Men have fallen from aircraft without a parachute and survived. A young boy fell 8 floors down an elevator shaft and didn't even have one broken bone. But miracles wrought out in Providence are not extraordinary gifts given to individuals. As previously stated, these have ceased because they are no longer needed. The infant church is no longer an infant church. Scripture is no longer being added on too.

Signs and wonders, did not happen as often as one might think in Scripture. God used these to often denote dispensational changes or in support of a God sent messenger. Often, hundreds of years passed without one single sign or wonder.

The Charismatic movement, which claims it has it's beginnings going back to Pentecost, ignores historical accuracy. This movement was not known in recent past church history. The original movement from whence it comes was known as "Pentecostalism". This movement was started around 1901 and the fathers of it are considered to be Charles Parham and William Seymour. The Charismatic movement did not begin until the 1960's. Going back to the 1600s,1700s and 1800's there is no mention of any church calling itself Charismatic or leaning on the "charismata" as a doctrine.

If charismatics were being honest with the Scriptures, then they would have to answer the following. If the power of healing, by laying on of hands, was not fading away, then why do we have these statements in God's Holy Word?

2Co 12:7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.
2Co 12:8 Concerning this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

Why did Paul have to beseech the Lord three times and yet it was not removed? Why didn't he just heal himself or have one of the other Apostles lay hands on him? Again:

1Ti 5:23 Be no longer a drinker of water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Timothy was often sickly and apparently suffered from a stomach infection or some other bowel disease. Why did Paul not just cure him? Why continue to let him suffer? Could it be, that Paul no longer could perform this extraordinary gift? Still again:

Php 2:26 since he longed after you all, and was sore troubled, because ye had heard that he was sick:
Php 2:27 for indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, that I might not have sorrow upon sorrow.

Why didn't Paul come to the rescue of his dear friend? Epaphroditus was healed in the Providence of God not through the laying on of hands. God can do as he pleases. Heal some and send others to their death. And again?

2Ti 4:20 Erastus remained at Corinth: but Trophimus I left at Miletus sick.

WHAT.... Paul left him behind sick? Why wouldn't have Paul healed him and brought him along?

There is much the Charismatics overlook in favor of their experiences but if experiences don't match up with Scripture, then you better be asking: From where do these experiences come from? Are you sure there not phony signs and wonders that come from the Devil himself? This final thought... even though this was given to the Jews, it has it's application today:

Mark_13:22 for there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show signs and wonders, that they may lead astray, if possible, the elect.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,457
113
Anaheim, Cali.
We all know, that the ones who primarily cling to the idea of Supernatural gifts still existing today are the Charismatics. They also teach "individual" Spirit Baptism, which is not Biblical. No individual was ever baptized by are into the Holy Spirit according to the book of Acts. Check it out for yourself. Baptism in the Holy Spirit always occurred collectively. First upon the Jewish believers in Jerusalem and then later upon the Gentiles. The two aspects of baptism, placing all believers into the one and same Universal Assembly which Christ is building. The Pauline epistles, when dealing with this subject, are always looking back to these events.

As to the "gifts" of the Spirit, we still possess the ordinary gifts, as God gives to each the ability to Love the brethren, to Preach, to teach, to heal (as one does as a physician), each as the Lord sees fit.

However as to the extraordinary gifts, these have passed away for now and will be seen again as the Kingdom approaches. The apostle Paul said:
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Let's examine these two verses for a moment. The immediate context is, we know in part and prophesy in part. The Scriptures were still being written. The entire revelation of God, to man, was still unfinished. Signs and wonders followed Christ's ministry to show He was the Son of God and they followed the infant church to show this assembly was a work of God. In verse 10, many say this points to the coming of the Lord, "But when that which is perfect is come.....", however, this view is not supported by the immediate context. The Greek word translated "PERFECT", comes from the word τέλειος and primarily means: "Complete, full or mature". In the immediate context, Paul was talking about the completion of Holy Scripture. When it is completed our knowing "in part" (v.10), will be done away with.

In this same way, the extraordinary gifts will cease as the revelation of God is completed. Once Scripture is complete, then the need for signs and wonders is rendered null. We know that Scripture is complete and nothing more will be added or taken away. This is not to say that miracles don't take place in God's Providence, they certainly do. Men have fallen from aircraft without a parachute and survived. A young boy fell 8 floors down an elevator shaft and didn't even have one broken bone. But miracles wrought out in Providence are not extraordinary gifts given to individuals. As previously stated, these have ceased because they are no longer needed. The infant church is no longer an infant church. Scripture is no longer being added on too.

Signs and wonders, did not happen as often as one might think in Scripture. God used these to often denote dispensational changes or in support of a God sent messenger. Often, hundreds of years passed without one single sign or wonder.

The Charismatic movement, which claims it has it's beginnings going back to Pentecost, ignores historical accuracy. This movement was not known in recent past church history. The original movement from whence it comes was known as "Pentecostalism". This movement was started around 1901 and the fathers of it are considered to be Charles Parham and William Seymour. The Charismatic movement did not begin until the 1960's. Going back to the 1600s,1700s and 1800's there is no mention of any church calling itself Charismatic or leaning on the "charismata" as a doctrine.

If charismatics were being honest with the Scriptures, then they would have to answer the following. If the power of healing, by laying on of hands, was not fading away, then why do we have these statements in God's Holy Word?

2Co 12:7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.
2Co 12:8 Concerning this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

Why did Paul have to beseech the Lord three times and yet it was not removed? Why didn't he just heal himself or have one of the other Apostles lay hands on him? Again:

1Ti 5:23 Be no longer a drinker of water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Timothy was often sickly and apparently suffered from a stomach infection or some other bowel disease. Why did Paul not just cure him? Why continue to let him suffer? Could it be, that Paul no longer could perform this extraordinary gift? Still again:

Php 2:26 since he longed after you all, and was sore troubled, because ye had heard that he was sick:
Php 2:27 for indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, that I might not have sorrow upon sorrow.
I guess that you are Anti-charismatic, don't believe in spiritual gifts are still her and now like, word of knowledge/wisdom, healing, tongues prophesy or prophecy. So it sounds like you think that the Holy Spirit is no longer with, in us. Too bad. That's limiting the Holy Spirit. I hope for your sake that it's not blasphemy. May God have mercy on you.
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
527
149
43
65
Well the verse you gave is Scripture and I believe Scripture but what is your point.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
17,208
1,729
113
We all know, that the ones who primarily cling to the idea of Supernatural gifts still existing today are the Charismatics. They also teach "individual" Spirit Baptism, which is not Biblical. No individual was ever baptized by are into the Holy Spirit according to the book of Acts. Check it out for yourself. Baptism in the Holy Spirit always occurred collectively. First upon the Jewish believers in Jerusalem and then later upon the Gentiles. The two aspects of baptism, placing all believers into the one and same Universal Assembly which Christ is building. The Pauline epistles, when dealing with this subject, are always looking back to these events.

As to the "gifts" of the Spirit, we still possess the ordinary gifts, as God gives to each the ability to Love the brethren, to Preach, to teach, to heal (as one does as a physician), each as the Lord sees fit.

However as to the extraordinary gifts, these have passed away for now and will be seen again as the Kingdom approaches. The apostle Paul said:
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Let's examine these two verses for a moment. The immediate context is, we know in part and prophesy in part. The Scriptures were still being written. The entire revelation of God, to man, was still unfinished. Signs and wonders followed Christ's ministry to show He was the Son of God and they followed the infant church to show this assembly was a work of God. In verse 10, many say this points to the coming of the Lord, "But when that which is perfect is come.....", however, this view is not supported by the immediate context. The Greek word translated "PERFECT", comes from the word τέλειος and primarily means: "Complete, full or mature". In the immediate context, Paul was talking about the completion of Holy Scripture. When it is completed our knowing "in part" (v.10), will be done away with.

In this same way, the extraordinary gifts will cease as the revelation of God is completed. Once Scripture is complete, then the need for signs and wonders is rendered null. We know that Scripture is complete and nothing more will be added or taken away. This is not to say that miracles don't take place in God's Providence, they certainly do. Men have fallen from aircraft without a parachute and survived. A young boy fell 8 floors down an elevator shaft and didn't even have one broken bone. But miracles wrought out in Providence are not extraordinary gifts given to individuals. As previously stated, these have ceased because they are no longer needed. The infant church is no longer an infant church. Scripture is no longer being added on too.

Signs and wonders, did not happen as often as one might think in Scripture. God used these to often denote dispensational changes or in support of a God sent messenger. Often, hundreds of years passed without one single sign or wonder.

The Charismatic movement, which claims it has it's beginnings going back to Pentecost, ignores historical accuracy. This movement was not known in recent past church history. The original movement from whence it comes was known as "Pentecostalism". This movement was started around 1901 and the fathers of it are considered to be Charles Parham and William Seymour. The Charismatic movement did not begin until the 1960's. Going back to the 1600s,1700s and 1800's there is no mention of any church calling itself Charismatic or leaning on the "charismata" as a doctrine.

If charismatics were being honest with the Scriptures, then they would have to answer the following. If the power of healing, by laying on of hands, was not fading away, then why do we have these statements in God's Holy Word?

2Co 12:7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.
2Co 12:8 Concerning this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

Why did Paul have to beseech the Lord three times and yet it was not removed? Why didn't he just heal himself or have one of the other Apostles lay hands on him? Again:

1Ti 5:23 Be no longer a drinker of water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Timothy was often sickly and apparently suffered from a stomach infection or some other bowel disease. Why did Paul not just cure him? Why continue to let him suffer? Could it be, that Paul no longer could perform this extraordinary gift? Still again:

Php 2:26 since he longed after you all, and was sore troubled, because ye had heard that he was sick:
Php 2:27 for indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, that I might not have sorrow upon sorrow.

Why didn't Paul come to the rescue of his dear friend? Epaphroditus was healed in the Providence of God not through the laying on of hands. God can do as he pleases. Heal some and send others to their death. And again?

2Ti 4:20 Erastus remained at Corinth: but Trophimus I left at Miletus sick.

WHAT.... Paul left him behind sick? Why wouldn't have Paul healed him and brought him along?

There is much the Charismatics overlook in favor of their experiences but if experiences don't match up with Scripture, then you better be asking: From where do these experiences come from? Are you sure there not phony signs and wonders that come from the Devil himself? This final thought... even though this was given to the Jews, it has it's application today:

Mark_13:22 for there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show signs and wonders, that they may lead astray, if possible, the elect.
You seem to forget that God is of the supernatural, for the record though the charasmatics are not the only ones who believe in the spirit he is not of flesh and he is not natural it doesn't take a bible degree to understand that if the gifts are not natural they supernatural and if it isn't of the flesh it is of the spirit which is unseen and doesn't work along the lines of this world it never has.

Let me ask you this when you were saved was a natural occurence? did you feel rebron like life was poured in you and did you know the joy of the spirit or did you follow doctrine and study under carnel thinking? Do you notice the difference bewteen the two thing I presented? There is a massive difference between the gifts of the holy spirit and the gifts we are given as humans there is likewise a huge difference between understanding with the spirit and the carnel mind, I am a man of science and logic and reasoning I used mathemical equations laws of physics and science for most things but even I understand that the spirit works in dofferent ways than the carnel mind if I am able to know his voice and know the flow of the spirit and understand that the gifts of the spirit are not limited by then how much more should others who don't have the kind of scientific mind I do?

If you ask me that is saying something
 
Mar 21, 2009
3,792
1,463
113
New York
At the same time the counterfeit is one of the main ways Satan deceives. I think I mentioned the rampant failed prophecies spewed by the mainstream charismatic churches. All you have to do is flip on the TV.
There are hundreds of millions of charismatic believers who don't watch or agree with the flakes on TV. They do not officially nor unofficially represent "mainstream" charismatics. For every one mega charismatic church with a celebrity pastor doing flaky things on TV there are tens of thousands of other charismatic churches that don't agree with their flakiness who don't deserve to be lumped in the same category. Charismatic christians complain about the nutcases on TV as much as non charismatic christians do.
 
Mar 21, 2009
3,792
1,463
113
New York
Actually it isn't taking it out of context if it's true, while yes the gifts have slowed down he built the church in a certain manner and set up how it was to operate via the holy spirit the only gift that scripture says will cease is the gift of prophecy and that is when all is complete
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

It uses prophecy, tongues and the gift of the word of knowledge as examples that will cease when that which is perfect is come.
That which will remain being Faith Hope and Love. Not sure how faith is needed in eternity but maybe it means that we will always be dependent on God. Hope, and expectation of good things for eternity. And Love , well we all understand how that endures forever.
No need to prophecy, or speak in tongues and interpret in heaven, because we will know as we are known, which explains some of the purposes of these gifts in the body now. We are encouraged and comforted by them pertaining to the uncertainties of this life. I have heard many confirmations from the gifts of the Spirit that have helped those who were facing direction in ministry. Just like in the book of Acts.
Prophecies do fail. Why? People are not perfect. Sometimes they miss it. This is not the same kind of prophesy as the OT prophets which ended with John the Baptist. If people call themselves prophet as a title and ask to be called prophet they aren't. It is ok to say that there are prophets in that church meaning people who operate in that gift, as they did say such things in the book of Acts, but once someone takes the name as a title and introduces themselves as Prophet Bob, just walk away. Don't even shake their hand.
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
527
149
43
65
You seem to forget that God is of the supernatural, for the record though the charasmatics are not the only ones who believe in the spirit he is not of flesh and he is not natural it doesn't take a bible degree to understand that if the gifts are not natural they supernatural and if it isn't of the flesh it is of the spirit which is unseen and doesn't work along the lines of this world it never has.

Let me ask you this when you were saved was a natural occurence? did you feel rebron like life was poured in you and did you know the joy of the spirit or did you follow doctrine and study under carnel thinking? Do you notice the difference bewteen the two thing I presented? There is a massive difference between the gifts of the holy spirit and the gifts we are given as humans there is likewise a huge difference between understanding with the spirit and the carnel mind, I am a man of science and logic and reasoning I used mathemical equations laws of physics and science for most things but even I understand that the spirit works in dofferent ways than the carnel mind if I am able to know his voice and know the flow of the spirit and understand that the gifts of the spirit are not limited by then how much more should others who don't have the kind of scientific mind I do?

If you ask me that is saying something
Certainly God is Spirit and demands that we worship Him in Spirit and Truth. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead. His primary role in helping believers is to point them to Christ. He speaks not of Himself and exalts the Lord and Savior.

As God His work is supernatural. When a person is "born from above" (John 3:1-10), he is passive, just as he was in natural conception. This mysterious and supernatural work upon the person, alters that person from being an enemy of God to considering what God has said. This consideration and guiding influence brings one to repentance and laying hold of Christ as his/her Savior.

I take no exception to the supernatural work of God, just the supernatural abilities of believers today as expressed in my earlier post. The exceptional Apostolic gifts are no more. You mentioned God giving gifts of knowledge to all men and this is true but I was referring to the ordinary spiritual gifts of the believers today. The ability to discern spiritual things, thus the ability to understand Scripture. Also, the ability to discern error. Deception is still possible but I don't believe God will leave one of His own deceived for years and years.

If you are defending the extraordinary and/or Apostolic gifts, then you still have to answer my questions from the previous post are risk being disingenuous.
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
527
149
43
65
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

It uses prophecy, tongues and the gift of the word of knowledge as examples that will cease when that which is perfect is come.
That which will remain being Faith Hope and Love. Not sure how faith is needed in eternity but maybe it means that we will always be dependent on God. Hope, and expectation of good things for eternity. And Love , well we all understand how that endures forever.
No need to prophecy, or speak in tongues and interpret in heaven, because we will know as we are known, which explains some of the purposes of these gifts in the body now. We are encouraged and comforted by them pertaining to the uncertainties of this life. I have heard many confirmations from the gifts of the Spirit that have helped those who were facing direction in ministry. Just like in the book of Acts.
Prophecies do fail. Why? People are not perfect. Sometimes they miss it. This is not the same kind of prophesy as the OT prophets which ended with John the Baptist. If people call themselves prophet as a title and ask to be called prophet they aren't. It is ok to say that there are prophets in that church meaning people who operate in that gift, as they did say such things in the book of Acts, but once someone takes the name as a title and introduces themselves as Prophet Bob, just walk away. Don't even shake their hand.
I just want to shed some light on this statement you made: " Not sure how faith is needed in eternity but maybe it means that we will always be dependent on God. "

Your confusion comes from the often taught error that Paul was talking about the appearance of the Lord in this verse, he was not. Many commentators have given the same interpretation. I would like to submit the following repost for your consideration.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Let's examine these two verses for a moment. The immediate context is, we know in part and prophesy in part. The Scriptures were still being written. The entire revelation of God, to man, was still unfinished. Signs and wonders followed Christ's ministry to show He was the Son of God and they followed the infant church to show this assembly was a work of God. In verse 10, many say this points to the coming of the Lord, "But when that which is perfect is come.....", however, this view is not supported by the immediate context. The Greek word translated "PERFECT", comes from the word τέλειος and primarily means: "Complete, full or mature". In the immediate context, Paul was talking about the completion of Holy Scripture. When it is completed our knowing "in part" (v.10), will be done away with. We now have the whole of God's revelation to man, from Gen.1:1 to Rev. 22:21.

Faith and hope remain until the Lord comes. Once He is with us in Eternity, faith and hope will be no more"

Rom_8:24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who is hoping for that which he is seeing?

Love abides forever and ever. Amen.
 

Blackpowderduelist

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
1,341
544
113
Babylon
There are hundreds of millions of charismatic believers who don't watch or agree with the flakes on TV. They do not officially nor unofficially represent "mainstream" charismatics. For every one mega charismatic church with a celebrity pastor doing flaky things on TV there are tens of thousands of other charismatic churches that don't agree with their flakiness who don't deserve to be lumped in the same category. Charismatic christians complain about the nutcases on TV as much as non charismatic christians do.
I do know a significant hand full of non-denominational and Pentecostal charismatic folk. (Of course anecdotal evidence is not a standard) They complain about some of the tv wackadoos, but many follow some of the tv nuts. Even the ones who argue against one tv guy or another, when you visit their church, they are up to the same stuff. But like I said, personal experience don't amount to nothing.
I personally left the charismatic church because the; let's call them inconsistencies. I did go to several before I abandoned the whole thing.
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
527
149
43
65
I do know a significant hand full of non-denominational and Pentecostal charismatic folk. (Of course anecdotal evidence is not a standard) They complain about some of the tv wackadoos, but many follow some of the tv nuts. Even the ones who argue against one tv guy or another, when you visit their church, they are up to the same stuff. But like I said, personal experience don't amount to nothing.
I personally left the charismatic church because the; let's call them inconsistencies. I did go to several before I abandoned the whole thing.
Your conclusions are as my own. I found many who denounced the TV nuts but their church often had the same follies. Perhaps the saddest aspect of talking with charismatic believers is their lack of knowledge where Scripture is concerned. They hold tenaciously to a few verses that seem to give their way of thinking credibility.

One I used to work with constantly denied God's Sovereignty. Out of one side of her mouth she would give lip service to it and then out of the other tell you how many times God would not do something. She denied God was behind calamity and did not believe that God had anything to do with illness or death. Equally grieving, was the constant elevating of the Holy Spirit, to the point, it began to overshadow the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Many deny the "New Birth" of John 3:1-10, by trying to make it the same thing as the Baptism in the Spirit of Acts. Two distinctly different things for two distinctly different purposes.

Glad to hear the Lord led you out from it.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,518
2,592
113
The argument that it has ceased is straightforward, with the necessary scripture:
  1. Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)
  2. The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)
  3. When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-21, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)
  4. Despite the numerous signs, Israel rejected him by putting him on the cross. (Luke 20:14, Acts 2:36)
  5. God gave Israel a one year extension as God's favored nation (Luke 13:8-9, Acts 3:26), by sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, who performed numerous signs and wonders again in Acts 2-7, in a final attempt to convince Israel to repent of murdering the Messiah and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).
  6. Israel rejected the Holy Spirit by their leaders stoning Stephen (Acts 7)
  7. Israel the nation fell and now salvation has been released to the gentiles thru their fall, as God has planned since the foundation of the world (Romans 11:11)
  8. Paul was given signs and wonders temporary to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)
  9. By the time Acts 28 arrived, even the diaspora of Israel has rejected Jesus (Acts 28:28).
  10. Signs and wonders have completely ceased at Acts 28.
Any comments and different perspectives?
Funny thing that Paul talks about the signs the most, and to the GENTILE CHURCHES in Corinth. Or have you gone so far in hyper dispie doctrine that even the book of Corinthians is to the JOOS?
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,457
113
Anaheim, Cali.
Well the verse you gave is Scripture and I believe Scripture but what is your point.
What verse? I didn't give you one. Isaiah 55:10 &11 is my signature line, it's at the bottom of all of my posts. It's about the word of God never returns void. VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV SEE BELOW?
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,457
113
Anaheim, Cali.
Well the verse you gave is Scripture and I believe Scripture but what is your point.
BSB stands for Berean Study Bible I downloaded it to my desktop, for Quick responses. I like it better than NIV. It's a newer translation. Not a paraphrase. Like 'Good News' was and 'The Living Bible' is.
 

Blackpowderduelist

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
1,341
544
113
Babylon
Your conclusions are as my own. I found many who denounced the TV nuts but their church often had the same follies. Perhaps the saddest aspect of talking with charismatic believers is their lack of knowledge where Scripture is concerned. They hold tenaciously to a few verses that seem to give their way of thinking credibility.

One I used to work with constantly denied God's Sovereignty. Out of one side of her mouth she would give lip service to it and then out of the other tell you how many times God would not do something. She denied God was behind calamity and did not believe that God had anything to do with illness or death. Equally grieving, was the constant elevating of the Holy Spirit, to the point, it began to overshadow the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Many deny the "New Birth" of John 3:1-10, by trying to make it the same thing as the Baptism in the Spirit of Acts. Two distinctly different things for two distinctly different purposes.

Glad to hear the Lord led you out from it.
Yep, that's pretty much my experience. This is beside the point but one of the charismatic women I have known, denied that Jesus used the whip that he made when he went to clear out the temple and run the money changers out the worst is with the prophesying every Sunday every prayer meeting that never comes to pass. Now be clear I'm not a cessationist. I have had someone prophesy over me that did come to pass. But that was like one out of very many. In fact it's the only one that I had ever heard from any of them that came to pass. So it's like 1 out of an uncountable number. But also God made an ass speak. I wonder why they never do healing the sick as Paul prescribed in his letter to Timothy, take the sick to the elders of the church and they will anoint with oil and the prayer of faith shall save the sick. Meh, anyway it's not my goal to bash any one and I'm in danger of doing so here.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,648
1,217
113
Funny thing that Paul talks about the signs the most, and to the GENTILE CHURCHES in Corinth. Or have you gone so far in hyper dispie doctrine that even the book of Corinthians is to the JOOS?
Yes, that was the point I was trying to address in my points 8 to 10.

In 1 Cor, all the 9 gifts were mentioned. That letter was written during the transitional period between Acts 7 and Acts 28, where signs and wonders were still given to Paul, as well as the Gentile churches, as a sign to Israel.

But by the time Paul wrote his prison epistles and pastoral letters after Acts 28, do you notice he no longer talk about tongues, in Ephesians 4 for example

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,648
1,217
113
Actually it isn't taking it out of context if it's true, while yes the gifts have slowed down he built the church in a certain manner and set up how it was to operate via the holy spirit the only gift that scripture says will cease is the gift of prophecy and that is when all is complete
What evidence is there aside from 1 Corinthians 13 :8 that the gifts have gone away? have you not ever been used in the gifts or seen them in action? and if not why do you think that is?

For me at least I have never seen or experienced healing nor have I have ever been able to speak to in tongues or interporet them but I have encountered the gift of tongues even if only once trust me you don't forget an experience like that, The only gift of these sorts God has used me personally in is prophecy but in my opinion the gift of healing is the greatest of these and it would be easy to not beliueve in it seeing as how I have begged and begged for this gift and to have others healed and never once could I recieve but that is what faith is isn't it?

If we require evidence to disprove or prove the gifts instead of believing based on what we know of him instead of our doctrines and understanding of personal logic then we are missing the point.
Personally I don't understand the logic of trying to disprove the gifts especially when these things are one of the most amazing ways he uses us
You agree that God did change in his dealings and instructions with man correct?

You agreed that there was a time when physical circumcision was necessary from us, but now, no.

There was a time when we were not allowed to eat meat, followed by us being allowed to eat meat, after the flood, but no blood, and now all animal is clean for eating (Acts 10).

There are changes on how God deal with man, that you can find throughout the Bible,

I think what you meant is that God doesn't change in his character, he is always love, always good etc etc. That all of us can agree.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,648
1,217
113
9And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Jesus has given us authority over the kingdom of satan. Jesus is still healing and delivering all that are oppressed of the devil.

Jesus is translating people from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of light. He did not cease.
Israel was promised a kingdom on earth with Jesus ruling over them from Jerusalem.

In that kingdom, he promised Israel that there will be no one sick, so that explains the numerous healings he did, to give them a taste of life in that kingdom.

What you are talking about now is more of a "spiritual kingdom" correct? If you are thinking of healing too, that comes only at the rapture, as Paul would explain to us from Romans 8:18 onwards.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,648
1,217
113
If the "gifts" have slowed, the problem is never on His end, it is always down here.
The problem with that kind of doctrine, that "God always wants you healed", is that you cannot avoid concluding that "So if you are not, it must be your fault".

While if you view healing as how Paul would view it, at Romans 8:18 onwards, that is the way the Body of Christ is suppose to understand about healing.