Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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I am currently reading about the timetable on the epistles, and what hit me is, that I forgot about the book of Revelation. Have you considered the book of Revelation? It is considered one of the last books written even at its earliest estimates, if not the very last. The whole book demonstrates operating in the gift of prophecy...
Revelation also closes the bible and completes the divine revelation of God. No more prophecy as 1 Cor 13:8 foretold.

What God has said will not prevent many from going on to seek that which God has not given.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Scribe didn't claim that Scripture trumps Scripture. You should read more carefully.

Those who believe that God still works miracles are not, as you assert, "miracle seekers". Your slander only reveals your heart and says nothing about anyone else.
Of course they seek miracles. They desire miracles in place of Gods word.

Got to love the poster who spoke in tongues and laid hands on his dog and healed the dog.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
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It is His very nature, it is who He is, that we be well, whole, restored.
Just as He is restoring mankind to Him as it was before the fall, it will be as it says in Revelation 22.
At this time any who have accepted Christ have available to them all the abilities Christ manifested, He was the model for how the Father wants His own to live.
Just as Jesus grew and the disciples grew, we are to grow. The gift of the Holy Spirit imparted to Jesus by John the Baptist was then imparted to the disciples, they in turn imparted to others as they ministered. There are no separate gifts or gifting, it is the same gift of Holy Spirit manifesting as he will and as we grow in Him.
best wishes
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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It is His very nature, it is who He is, that we be well, whole, restored.
Just as He is restoring mankind to Him as it was before the fall, it will be as it says in Revelation 22.
At this time any who have accepted Christ have available to them all the abilities Christ manifested, He was the model for how the Father wants His own to live.
Just as Jesus grew and the disciples grew, we are to grow. The gift of the Holy Spirit imparted to Jesus by John the Baptist was then imparted to the disciples, they in turn imparted to others as they ministered. There are no separate gifts or gifting, it is the same gift of Holy Spirit manifesting as he will and as we grow in Him.
best wishes
This is one of the common misunderstood point of the healing signs in the 4 Gospels.

Jesus didn't perform those healings because he took pity and was kind to those who are sick.

Don't get me wrong, Jesus is love and is definitely kind. Rather the healings were prophesied, as stated in my point 2. They were all healings to testify his identity to Israel.

For us now, in this age, there are no guarantees on healing. Paul instead told us to wait for the rapture in Romans 8:18 onwards, where we will get redemption of our earthly bodies. That is the promise we have about healing.
 

shittim

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Dec 16, 2016
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only "misunderstood" by the ignorant who know Him not.
There is no fellowship with those who choose to be ignorant and lean on they're own understanding, not taking everything to Him as we are required.
goodbye
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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only "misunderstood" by the ignorant who know Him not.
There is no fellowship with those who choose to be ignorant and lean on they're own understanding, not taking everything to Him as we are required.
goodbye
What did Paul teach the Body of Christ regarding healing, from Romans to Philemon?
 
Mar 21, 2009
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The glass is a mirror. The bible is like a mirror to ourselves and allows us to fully know God and ourselves. Hence 'face to face'

In part.. progressing revelation of God's word at the time.. thru gifts of tongues,prophecy and knowledge..

The Word completed ..the tools were put away to reveal it. This completion is the perfect thing, or that which is perfect.

Perfect meaning 'lacking nothing'
'Complete' 'mature'
Yes, this analogy of the Word of God to a mirror is seen in James 1:23

For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;
Most scholars agree that 'that which is perfect' is when we put off mortality and put on immortality. When we are changed and glorified and enter into that eternal state of perfection promised to us by so many New Testament scriptures. (see examples below)

Paul is referring to the same thing here. When that happens we will know as we are known. That is when we will see him face to face. At the time this was written they used polished bronze mirrors and they were not perfect. Today we still know in part and it is obvious by the many interpretations that some have challenges in their understanding. Until then we have been given the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to help us not to usurp the authority of the scriptures but for mutual edification and we are waiting for that perfection when we will no longer need spiritual gifts.

F.F. Bruce also agrees with this interpretation. If you don't know who that is, you have not been serious about your biblical education. F.F. Bruce also states

"the literature of the period following the apostolic age makes it plain that the gifts did not come to a full stop with the closing of the New Testament canon."



That which is perfect is come is referring to the following:

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[a] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God[c] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

So you see how you made up a story in your own mind about how the gifts ceased when neither scripture nor history supports your view and it is a view that is either ignorant of the historical documents or is willing to ignore them for a belligerent stubborn hostile stance against the gifts, not wanting them to be true and secretly wishing they had never been mentioned in the bible.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Most scholars agree that 'that which is perfect' is when we put off mortality and put on immortality. When we are changed and glorified and enter into that eternal state of perfection promised to us by so many New Testament scriptures. (see examples below)

Paul is referring to the same thing here. When that happens we will know as we are known. That is when we will see him face to face. At the time this was written they used polished bronze mirrors and they were not perfect. Today we still know in part and it is obvious by the many interpretations that some have challenges in their understanding. Until then we have been given the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to help us not to usurp the authority of the scriptures but for mutual edification and we are waiting for that perfection when we will no longer need spiritual gifts.

F.F. Bruce also agrees with this interpretation. If you don't know who that is, you have not been serious about your biblical education. F.F. Bruce also states

"the literature of the period following the apostolic age makes it plain that the gifts did not come to a full stop with the closing of the New Testament canon."



That which is perfect is come is referring to the following:

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[a] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God[c] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

So you see how you made up a story in your own mind about how the gifts ceased when neither scripture nor history supports your view and it is a view that is either ignorant of the historical documents or is willing to ignore them for a belligerent stubborn hostile stance against the gifts, not wanting them to be true and secretly wishing they had never been mentioned in the bible.
You do agree that signs have ceased for this period right?

God can still heal if he wants to, no one is denying that.
 
Mar 21, 2009
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You do agree that signs have ceased for this period right?

God can still heal if he wants to, no one is denying that.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit that we are to "DESIRE" from 1 Cor 12 - 14 have not ceased and will not until we are glorified and made perfect and see Jesus FACE TO FACE in that state of perfection which we all look for to come.

Calling them "signs" is your own bad interpretation. These Holy Spirit gifts have not ceased for today. They are alive and well in my denomonation which is the fastest growing in the world and currently has about 70 million members who operate in these gifts. It has not ceased in the nondenominational and charismatic churches that are estimated at 300 million. If you include all of the charismatic, pentecostal, and evangelicals that call themselves 'continuationists' (those who believe that the gifts have continued since the book of Acts) you will be in the neighborhood of 500 million or more. I would say much more if we can get an accurate count from the underground church in China which seem to trend toward charismatic.

So the gifts of the Spirit are very much in operation today and if you would get involved in a bible believing church that allows them you will realize that they are very much alive and well and you have simply been in seclusion.

Also remember that not everything was recorded in church history that was happening world wide. There has always been pockets of churches who operated in the gifts of the Spirit. There have been dark ages when these were suppressed even as today there are denominations that attempt to suppress them, but since the early 1900s a world wide revival has superseded the denominations that are stuck in their own dark ages and has made them irrelevant and obsolete. The spiritually revived have moved on.

You can stay in your denial but you can't change history.

I preach the Gospel with signs following. Those signs include, healing, casting out demons, raising the dead, and most importantly translations from the kingdom of satan into the kingdom of His dear Son Jesus Christ.

When I preach I tell them "The Kingdom of God has Come Nigh unto You" and even the demons are made subject to me through the authority of Jesus Christ. I rejoice that my name is written in heaven which is the greatest miracle of all.

No, signs of the power of the Kingdom of God manifest in my preaching has not ceased and if it does I will quit preaching.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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The gifts of the Holy Spirit that we are to "DESIRE" from 1 Cor 12 - 14 have not ceased and will not until we are glorified and made perfect and see Jesus FACE TO FACE in that state of perfection which we all look for to come.

Calling them "signs" is your own bad interpretation. These Holy Spirit gifts have not ceased for today. They are alive and well in my denomonation which is the fastest growing in the world and currently has about 70 million members who operate in these gifts. It has not ceased in the nondenominational and charismatic churches that are estimated at 300 million. If you include all of the charismatic, pentecostal, and evangelicals that call themselves 'continuationists' (those who believe that the gifts have continued since the book of Acts) you will be in the neighborhood of 500 million or more. I would say much more if we can get an accurate count from the underground church in China which seem to trend toward charismatic.

So the gifts of the Spirit are very much in operation today and if you would get involved in a bible believing church that allows them you will realize that they are very much alive and well and you have simply been in seclusion.

Also remember that not everything was recorded in church history that was happening world wide. There has always been pockets of churches who operated in the gifts of the Spirit. There have been dark ages when these were suppressed even as today there are denominations that attempt to suppress them, but since the early 1900s a world wide revival has superseded the denominations that are stuck in their own dark ages and has made them irrelevant and obsolete. The spiritually revived have moved on.

You can stay in your denial but you can't change history.

I preach the Gospel with signs following. Those signs include, healing, casting out demons, raising the dead, and most importantly translations from the kingdom of satan into the kingdom of His dear Son Jesus Christ.

When I preach I tell them "The Kingdom of God has Come Nigh unto You" and even the demons are made subject to me through the authority of Jesus Christ. I rejoice that my name is written in heaven which is the greatest miracle of all.

No, signs of the power of the Kingdom of God manifest in my preaching has not ceased and if it does I will quit preaching.
What are these signs suppose to testify to, now that Israel has fallen?
 
Mar 21, 2009
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Please send those with the gift of healing to the cancer hospitals. Thanks.
This kind of statement exposes and extreme lack of knowledge about reality today, and also in the 1st century.
1) Today there are thousands around the world who go to hospitals and pray for the sick to be healed and thousands are healed and testify of their healing with medical documents to back up their claims of disappeared tumors before surgery and before chemo was administered. Discharged, and scheduled treatments canceled with doctors saying they have no explanation and did not make a mistake in diagnosis, as they still have the evidence in the biopsy. THOUSANDS of such reports. But people still don't believe it.

2) in the 1st Century Paul nor Peter or Stephen, Phillip, (other non apostle believers) did not go to leper colonies and heal everyone. So that argument must be put to rest as it is not a valid argument. People think it is but it isn't. The gifts of healing operated by faith in the name of Jesus Christ then, and now.

We know that even Paul mentions leaving Trophimus in Miletus sick and so we are wrong if we say that Paul healed everyone on demand. The only reason people think that no one has the same gifts today as they had in Acts is that they have 'imagined' something that Acts does not say. When we tack an example such as his apron pieces being sent to the sick we imagine more than the text says. It is an instance of a special miracle but does not mean that Paul cleaned out hospitals as part of his ministry. It does not even mean Paul healed every sick person in his evangelistic team (see Trophimus). He did not heal Timothy of his "oft" stomach issues. This idea that they had something we don't have is just lack of careful exegesis and as always a whole lot of unbelief.
It is convenient for people to say it is not the same today, it gives them an excuse (a peace of mind) , a quieting of the conscience, and that avoiding of the "terror" that grips them when they imagine themselves praying for a cancer patient to be healed. "What if it does not work?" It is easier to say, that these miracles have ceased rather than to attempt to find the faith to step out and see the power of the Kingdom of God manifest in the Name of Jesus Christ.
 
Mar 21, 2009
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What are these signs suppose to testify to, now that Israel has fallen?
9And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Jesus has given us authority over the kingdom of satan. Jesus is still healing and delivering all that are oppressed of the devil.

Jesus is translating people from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of light. He did not cease.
 

Blackpowderduelist

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I don't think that the gifts ended. I just don't think they are what modern charismaticism says they are. Especially speaking in tongues. I am fully convinced that speaking in tongues is not what they are doing.
I could get into the number of false prophecies that come out from that mess.
 
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Actually, faith is strengthened with the absence of signs. Gentiles are called to walk by faith not by sight. Faith comes from hearing the word of God.
You say when there is no evidence of the unseen, belief in it increases. Any historic examples of that ?
 
Mar 21, 2009
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Actually, faith is strengthened with the absence of signs. Gentiles are called to walk by faith not by sight. Faith comes from hearing the word of God.
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Abraham is an example also of walking by faith and not by sight. Believing what God had promised. And what happened as a result? Sarah gave birth when she was past age of giving birth. Miracles happen when we walk by faith and not by sight.

Someone is shown an Xray of a tumor and given 6 months to live. We walk by faith and not by sight, pray for her to be healed and the tumor disappears. We put our faith in the promise "by his stripes we are healed" and "let them lay hands on her and pray over her anointing with oil and the prayer of faith shall save the sick" and she gets healed. Why? Because we walk by faith and not by sight (xray). She has a name and documented proof and goes to my church. HALLELUJAH! Tell her that these things have ceased, she will just laugh and walk away praising God for what He has done for her.
 

Blain

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Aug 28, 2012
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The point I am saying is that you are using Hebrews 13:8 out of context
The point I am saying is that you are using Hebrews 13:8 out of context
Actually it isn't taking it out of context if it's true, while yes the gifts have slowed down he built the church in a certain manner and set up how it was to operate via the holy spirit the only gift that scripture says will cease is the gift of prophecy and that is when all is complete
What evidence is there aside from 1 Corinthians 13 :8 that the gifts have gone away? have you not ever been used in the gifts or seen them in action? and if not why do you think that is?

For me at least I have never seen or experienced healing nor have I have ever been able to speak to in tongues or interporet them but I have encountered the gift of tongues even if only once trust me you don't forget an experience like that, The only gift of these sorts God has used me personally in is prophecy but in my opinion the gift of healing is the greatest of these and it would be easy to not beliueve in it seeing as how I have begged and begged for this gift and to have others healed and never once could I recieve but that is what faith is isn't it?

If we require evidence to disprove or prove the gifts instead of believing based on what we know of him instead of our doctrines and understanding of personal logic then we are missing the point.
Personally I don't understand the logic of trying to disprove the gifts especially when these things are one of the most amazing ways he uses us
 

Blackpowderduelist

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Sep 2, 2020
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Babylon
Actually it isn't taking it out of context if it's true, while yes the gifts have slowed down he built the church in a certain manner and set up how it was to operate via the holy spirit the only gift that scripture says will cease is the gift of prophecy and that is when all is complete
What evidence is there aside from 1 Corinthians 13 :8 that the gifts have gone away? have you not ever been used in the gifts or seen them in action? and if not why do you think that is?

For me at least I have never seen or experienced healing nor have I have ever been able to speak to in tongues or interporet them but I have encountered the gift of tongues even if only once trust me you don't forget an experience like that, The only gift of these sorts God has used me personally in is prophecy but in my opinion the gift of healing is the greatest of these and it would be easy to not beliueve in it seeing as how I have begged and begged for this gift and to have others healed and never once could I recieve but that is what faith is isn't it?

If we require evidence to disprove or prove the gifts instead of believing based on what we know of him instead of our doctrines and understanding of personal logic then we are missing the point.
Personally I don't understand the logic of trying to disprove the gifts especially when these things are one of the most amazing ways he uses us
At the same time the counterfeit is one of the main ways Satan deceives. I think I mentioned the rampant failed prophecies spewed by the mainstream charismatic churches. All you have to do is flip on the TV.
 

shittim

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Dec 16, 2016
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That is why we shouldn't flip on the TV, the devil talks to us from there. The "church" is the body of believers, not a building, not a TV show, not an organization Of course the devil will mock the genuine work of God through His prophets and evangelists.