Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[mailmandan]

13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

1. It is descriptive of the effort they have to put in persevering until 'the end'
2. It shows some will start but will not make it to the end
3. It shows salvation is at the end despite the hope at the beginning.

Do you believe that God only preserves those who preserves themselves? Believers put effort into persevering, yet persevering is not exclusively of man. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will be saved (future indicative) if you (future indicative) persevere." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, really saved, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast and hope to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

 

[Noose]

Read it for yourself And answer it

James 2 New International Version (NIV)
Favoritism Forbidden
2 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

How can anyone argue against this?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Read it for yourself And answer it

James 2 New International Version (NIV)
Favoritism Forbidden
2 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Once again

Janes said they CLAIMED to have faith but had NO work

Define “no work” from the Greek

 

[mailmandan]

How can anyone argue against this?

To sum it up, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). Any arguments?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To sum it up, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). Any arguments?

Amen true faith produces work

This true faith will always produce some work. Not all people will produce massive amounts of works. Only those who make it to spiritual maturity but babes in Christ are still “in Christ”

 

[mailmandan]

Once again

Janes said they CLAIMED to have faith but had NO work

Define “no work” from the Greek

The word SAYS or CLAIMS to have faith.. in James 2:14 is crucial to consider.

 

[mailmandan]

Amen true faith produces work

This true faith will always produce some work. Not all people will produce massive amounts of works. Only those who make it to spiritual maturity but babes in Christ are still “in Christ”

Yes, all genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. If we are truly born again, then we WILL produce fruit and some more than others.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The word SAYS or CLAIMS to have faith.. in James 2:14 is crucial to consider.

That’s my point. He NeVER said they had faith

Also no work

How much work is that?

It’s 2 points they never want to look at

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, all genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. If we are truly born again, then we WILL produce fruit and some more than others.

Amen. Al true believers. Not just “claimed” believers will have works.

Those with mere belief are hearers only not doers. This produce no work

 

[Noose]

Do you believe that God only preserves those who preserves themselves? Believers put effort into persevering, yet persevering is not exclusively of man. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will be saved (future indicative) if you (future indicative) persevere." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, really saved, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast and hope to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

You are ignoring a very important word, "if"
"if" implies conditional. The conditions may change anytime between having the assurance and the end. The condition here is, only those that hold fast until the end.

 

[mailmandan]

You are ignoring a very important word, "if" "if" implies conditional. The conditions may change anytime between having the assurance and the end. The condition here is, only those that hold fast until the end.

I wasn't ignoring the word, "if" which confirms "having become partakers of Christ/whose house we are." The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ/whose house we are" (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast until the end." It is rather, "you have become partakers of Christ/whose house we are" (demonstrative evidence) if you hold fast until the end. There is no implication of a changing condition, but a confirmation of a condition. Perseverance is confirmation of genuine conversion.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Crickets again

 

[Noose]

I wasn't ignoring the word, "if" which confirms "having become partakers of Christ/whose house we are." The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ/whose house we are" (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast until the end." It is rather, "you have become partakers of Christ/whose house we are" (demonstrative evidence) if you hold fast until the end. There is no implication of a changing condition, but a confirmation of a condition. Perseverance is confirmation of genuine conversion.

Having become partakers in Christ is not the issue here, it is the 'if we hold fast until the end' that is the issue. It also means, having become partakers in Christ first, if we don't hold on fast until the end, we will loose it.

There's definitely a condition.

 

[Sipsey]

You are ignoring a very important word, "if"
"if" implies conditional. The conditions may change anytime between having the assurance and the end. The condition here is, only those that hold fast until the end.

In koine Greek there are three conditional classes to the word translated “if”
1) If- and it may or may not be true
2) If- and it is true
3) If- and it is not true

Context usually provides that meaning. That is why a casual reading of “any” scripture verses may bring comfort, but not necessarily insight.

 

[mailmandan]

Having become partakers in Christ is not the issue here, it is the 'if we hold fast until the end' that is the issue. It also means, having become partakers in Christ first, if we don't hold on fast until the end, we will loose it.

There's definitely a condition.

"HAVE BECOME" certainly is the issue. The writer of Hebrews did not say "will" become. Show me where the writer of Hebrews said "lose it." If we don't hold on fast until the end, then we demonstrate that we HAVE NOT BECOME partakers of Christ. The condition confirms the position.

 

[Noose]

In koine Greek there are three conditional classes to the word translated “if”
1) If- and it may or may not be true
2) If- and it is true
3) If- and it is not true

Context usually provides that meaning. That is why a casual reading of “any” scripture verses may bring comfort, but not necessarily insight.

I'm not a Greek expert but the context from the entire bible shows otherwise.

Matt 24:13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Rev 2:25 Nevertheless, hold fast to what you have until I come. 26And to the one who is victorious andcontinues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations.

Rev 3:11I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

 

[Noose]

"HAVE BECOME" certainly is the issue. The writer of Hebrews did not say "will" become. Show me where the writer of Hebrews said "lose it." If we don't hold on fast until the end, then we demonstrate that we HAVE NOT BECOME partakers of Christ. The condition confirms the position.

Nope.
Have become is not the main thing. It only means we have accepted Christ (Faith) BUT (condition) if we don't continue holding fast, we stop being partakers in Christ- otherwise that verse should have just stopped at "we have become partakers in Christ" with no other conditions.

 

[Sipsey]

I'm not a Greek expert but the context from the entire bible shows otherwise.

Matt 24:13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Rev 2:25 Nevertheless, hold fast to what you have until I come. 26And to the one who is victorious andcontinues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations.

Rev 3:11I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

If (and it’s true) a follower of Jesus perseveres to the end, he will be saved.
If (and he may or may not) a follower of Jesus perseveres to the end, he will be saved.
If (and it’s not true) a follower of of Jesus perseveres to the end, he will be saved.

Which one is accurate?

 

[Noose]

If (and it’s true) a follower of Jesus perseveres to the end, he will be saved.
If (and he may or may not) a follower of Jesus perseveres to the end, he will be saved.
If (and it’s not true) a follower of of Jesus perseveres to the end, he will be saved.

Which one is accurate?

Which one corresponds to this?

Matt 24:13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

 

[mailmandan]

Nope.
Have become is not the main thing. It only means we have accepted Christ (Faith) BUT (condition) if we don't continue holding fast, we stop being partakers in Christ- otherwise that verse should have just stopped at "we have become partakers in Christ" with no other conditions.

Nope.
HAVE BECOME is not to be disregarded and the writer of Hebrews said nothing about "stop" being partakers in Christ. I can see you have your agenda. It's not about faith + if but if confirms faith.

Another example, in Colossians 1:23, we read - ..if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. The word "if" here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith."

That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed, yet what about "nominal" Christians whose shallow, temporary belief withers away?

It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. It's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow faith was not grounded in the gospel to begin with.

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, we read - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.