Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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Nat2019

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Jul 14, 2019
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What is the different between work done in righteousness and work done for god through faith, can you give example?

Matt 7

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Seem to me people in verse 22 have faith that they are save, save by faith but Jesus say no

In the church I always hear the teaching if you believe by faith you are save than you are save

People in verse 22 believe they are save but it is not
Verse 22 is referring to the pharisees. Who did everything for the benefit of others but not God.
They disobeyed God. They didnt do wonderful works for God, but only to look good in front of others.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Verse 22 is referring to the pharisees. Who did everything for the benefit of others but not God.
They disobeyed God. They didnt do wonderful works for God, but only to look good in front of others.
This quote proves you don't know what you are talking about.....THEY DONE NOTHING in the NAME OF JESUS, they hated his guts and wanted to KILL HIM.....man you take the cake for just spewing belief with NO understanding......

MANY WILL COME IN MY NAME SAYING....

SHOW 2 sets of scriptures where the PHARISEES done ANYTHING in the NAME OF JESUS.......we will ALL WAIT
 

Nat2019

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Jul 14, 2019
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This quote proves you don't know what you are talking about.....THEY DONE NOTHING in the NAME OF JESUS, they hated his guts and wanted to KILL HIM.....man you take the cake for just spewing belief with NO understanding......

MANY WILL COME IN MY NAME SAYING....

SHOW 2 sets of scriptures where the PHARISEES done ANYTHING in the NAME OF JESUS.......we will ALL WAIT
By the way I am not talking to you about this. Thanks. Someone else asked me this question.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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By the way I am not talking to you about this. Thanks. Someone else asked me this question.
So what....free thread and open....SHOW two sets of scriptures where the PHARISEES done anything in the name of JESUS....ya can't and your assessment was wrong......

NOW....take for instance the RELIGIONS that peddle their working for dogma that secures their entrance into the kingdom while claiming JESUS as LORD....yep.........right on the money!!

MANY WILL COME SAYING.....HAVE WE NOT blah blah blah IN YOUR NAME......we are still waiting....find two sets.....
 
K

Karraster

Guest
Unfortunately I have lived a quiet life. And my burdens have been light.
So this tumult is baggage that breaks my heart. I would dearly like to know how to help.
I think all we can do is share and be there taking the blows, and loving despite it all.

In my house group and church I was not good enough to be a deacon, because I talked to
an unapproved of individual. This was years ago 10+. I have just loved through it and seen
people change soften and open up. So many hurts, so many betrayals, so much fear.

But giving a bit, every now and then changes worlds. People light up. 1 hour here, 1 hour
there. One gift of love given unexpectedly, one encouragement to grow in Christ.
So I know in Christ He brings it to victory on the path of the cross. God bless you
Maybe you've had a quiet and unburdened life to be to stay pure in heart. There just doesn't seem to be any guile in your mouth, which is to be admired, (especially in this place) I gather then you are male? You sound so gentle I thought you were female, hope you take no offence, you remind me of my mother, her personality. She was very wise and kind, everybody loved her. She suffered hurts and losses, which I know you have too, but you remain so kind. Such a breath of fresh air, and the world would be a better place with more like you.
 

Noose

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Apr 18, 2016
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You mean David that was under law that said blessed are those who do not have their sins Imputed to them?
Yes It was his choice but What does that have to do with Grace through faith?
The law was given to Moses but grace And Truth came by JESUS.
Faith started with Abraham. David had faith in the Lord (Christ). Their was even greater because it was based on a promise. So the idea that faith automatically works miracles in a person is not true.
David having faith (hope for salvation) in the Lord and having the spirit of God, still made the decision he made. He planned for days to go against God and for years seeing the child grow but could not repent until God struck. And you are telling me that faith alone is enough.
 

Nat2019

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Jul 14, 2019
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*Pharasees did not practice what they preach.

*Everything pharasees did was for the benefit of others. Too look Good in front of them for prideful purposes. Like wearing special robes. A bit like preachers who wear expensive suits. To look Good in front of others.

*Pharasees neglected
the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness.

A Warning Against Hypocrisy
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, (for they do not practice what they preach). 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “(Everything they do is done for people to see): They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14]

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]”
 

Nat2019

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Jul 14, 2019
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Pharasees-

So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Matthew 6:1
“Beware of practicing (your) righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 15:7-9
You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

Romans 2:3
Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

(If) you label me dishonest, but then you are dishonest you will not escape judgment day.

Romans 2:1-5
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

*If you judge others of dishonesty and are dishonest yourself.

You are heaping up Gods wrath upon you and will be judged.

Hopefully none of the people accusing me of dishonesty. Dont ever lie:) otherwise if they Do Gods punishment will be upon them for hypocrisy.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Faith started with Abraham. David had faith in the Lord (Christ). Their was even greater because it was based on a promise. So the idea that faith automatically works miracles in a person is not true.
David having faith (hope for salvation) in the Lord and having the spirit of God, still made the decision he made. He planned for days to go against God and for years seeing the child grow but could not repent until God struck. And you are telling me that faith alone is enough.
David was living under the Law. He is expected to keep his commandments and when he sin, he has to sacrifice a lamb for forgiveness, all these represent works that he must do. He is thus not a good example for us under the grace dispensation.

But note that he actually saw in the future and prophesy, Paul mentioned in Romans 4, that we are more blessed than him under this dispensation because, unlike him, our sins the Lord will never impute to us. All those under Law do not enjoy that grace, his adultery sin caused the death of his son, no matter how many lambs he sacrificed to the Lord.
 

Nat2019

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Jul 14, 2019
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David was living under the Law. He is expected to keep his commandments and when he sin, he has to sacrifice a lamb for forgiveness, all these represent works that he must do. He is thus not a good example for us under the grace dispensation.

But note that he actually saw in the future and prophesy, Paul mentioned in Romans 4, that we are more blessed than him under this dispensation because, unlike him, our sins the Lord will never impute to us. All those under Law do not enjoy that grace, his adultery sin caused the death of his son, no matter how many lambs he sacrificed to the Lord.
Hi Guojing. Where in the bible does it say God controls you and takes away your choices and free will?

Are we puppets to God, where he holds the strings and makes us do everything he commands?
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Verse 22 is referring to the pharisees. Who did everything for the benefit of others but not God.
They disobeyed God. They didnt do wonderful works for God, but only to look good in front of others.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


My brother, if we read carefully seem to me this verse not targeting pharisess.

Let read the verse again

Many will say to me

To me mean to Jesus

Pharisees not call Jesus Lord, Pharisees do not believe Jesus is God.

I believe verse 22 is for the people that think they are do for Jesus but not

Preacher my do out of love, may do out of money.

I believe this verse consistence with 1 Cor 13

Even if you have faith to move the mountain but no love, useless in God eyes.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Hi Guojing. Where in the bible does it say God controls you and takes away your choices and free will?

Are we puppets to God, where he holds the strings and makes us do everything he commands?
I didn't realize I implied that in my post. Why did you have that impression I was talking about lack of free will in that post?
 

Nat2019

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Jul 14, 2019
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David was living under the Law. He is expected to keep his commandments and when he sin, he has to sacrifice a lamb for forgiveness, all these represent works that he must do. He is thus not a good example for us under the grace dispensation.

But note that he actually saw in the future and prophesy, Paul mentioned in Romans 4, that we are more blessed than him under this dispensation because, unlike him, our sins the Lord will never impute to us. All those under Law do not enjoy that grace, his adultery sin caused the death of his son, no matter how many lambs he sacrificed to the Lord.
Guojing if God has full control why can a person still sin?
Because if God was in control fully, a person could not sin again.
 

Nat2019

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Jul 14, 2019
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22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


My brother, if we read carefully seem to me this verse not targeting pharisess.

Let read the verse again

Many will say to me

To me mean to Jesus

Pharisees not call Jesus Lord, Pharisees do not believe Jesus is God.

I believe verse 22 is for the people that think they are do for Jesus but not

Preacher my do out of love, may do out of money.

I believe this verse consistence with 1 Cor 13

Even if you have faith to move the mountain but no love, useless in God eyes.
Everything is for our benefit. Yes it can mean people who dont do Gods will. All story's are for our benefit. Just like when God talks to ISREAL. If you hear his voice harden, not your hearts as in the rebellion. This is also for us.
 

Nat2019

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Jul 14, 2019
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Everything is for our benefit. Yes it can mean people who dont do Gods will. All story's are for our benefit. Just like when God talks to ISREAL. If you hear his voice harden, not your hearts as in the rebellion. This is also for us.
Pharasees prayed

Matthew 6:5
“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

Matthew 15:1-9
Traditions and Commandments
15 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” 3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 5 But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,”[a] 6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:

8 “‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
9 in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Everything is for our benefit. Yes it can mean people who dont do Gods will. All story's are for our benefit. Just like when God talks to ISREAL. If you hear his voice harden, not your hearts as in the rebellion. This is also for us.
Yep, I agree it is warning for our benefit so we do out of love.

We can be a preacher or prophecy as describe in verse 22 but if we are not doing it wright, Jesus will say I do not know you
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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David was living under the Law. He is expected to keep his commandments and when he sin, he has to sacrifice a lamb for forgiveness, all these represent works that he must do. He is thus not a good example for us under the grace dispensation.

But note that he actually saw in the future and prophesy, Paul mentioned in Romans 4, that we are more blessed than him under this dispensation because, unlike him, our sins the Lord will never impute to us. All those under Law do not enjoy that grace, his adultery sin caused the death of his son, no matter how many lambs he sacrificed to the Lord.
Regardless.
What i meant is, theirs was a greater faith based on a promise.
Abraham's faith is great example used in the NT by Paul and others to teach faith.
With their great faith, they still made terrible personal choices, it won't change with you.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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What i meant is, theirs was a greater faith based on a promise.
Abraham's faith is great example used in the NT by Paul and others to teach faith.
With their great faith, they still made terrible personal choices, it won't change with you.
The difference between Abraham and David was that Abraham lived under an unconditional covenant from God, before the Law was given, as you have stated.

Thus, when he marry his half sister, which was an abomination under the Law, and he also "misled" the Pharaoh twice regarding Sarah not being his wife, God instead appeared in the Pharaoh dream and called Abraham a prophet. We are under the same unconditional covenant as Abraham.

David was living under the Law, and his terrible choices led to both consequences from God (Striking down his son), as well as natural consequences (Amnon raping the sister and the problems of Absalom)
 
Dec 9, 2011
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Faith started with Abraham. David had faith in the Lord (Christ). Their was even greater because it was based on a promise. So the idea that faith automatically works miracles in a person is not true.
David having faith (hope for salvation) in the Lord and having the spirit of God, still made the decision he made. He planned for days to go against God and for years seeing the child grow but could not repent until God struck. And you are telling me that faith alone is enough.
That’s what the Bible says.
John 3:16
King James Version

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Nothing there about works.