Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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Apr 18, 2016
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What is the endurance being called for here.

Is it

Revelation 14:9-11
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

I think it relates to the mark of the beast and not to the commands you talk about.

Hence v13 because they will be killed for not taking the mark of the beast.
1 Cor 13: 7 (Love) ..It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

It is the obedience of the command to love and even that verse testifies that they will rest from their works and their works will follow them.
 
Sep 10, 2019
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I still don't see how a two year old gets saved. They don't get to hear these so called 'truths' and get sealed, how do they get saved?
Children such as your hypothetical 2 year old must go to the white throne judgement. Many Christians think that everyone at this judgement is condemned but I disagree. The Bible says the book of Life is opened at the white throne judgement. I don`t think the book of life would be opened unless some obtain mercy and I believe young children will be at the top of God`s mercy list.
 
Sep 1, 2019
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I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.
If you lose yours how do you plan to get it back since christ cannot be crusifed again?
I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.
If you lose yours how do you plan to get it back since christ can never be crucified again? Or how do you stayed saved and will never lose your salvation? So, the rest of us can go to heaven too....
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Children such as your hypothetical 2 year old must go to the white throne judgement. Many Christians think that everyone at this judgement is condemned but I disagree. The Bible says the book of Life is opened at the white throne judgement. I don`t think the book of life would be opened unless some obtain mercy and I believe young children will be at the top of God`s mercy list.
So you are saying that everyone is born with their names already in this book of life and we are expunged from it based on what we do or not do in this life?
 
Sep 10, 2019
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So you are saying that everyone is born with their names already in this book of life and we are expunged from it based on what we do or not do in this life?
The Bible says the Book of life was written from the foundation of the world. I think you already know that.
The Bible mentions blotting out in a few places but I believe it is rare.
But no, I don`t think everyone is in it.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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The Bible says the Book of life was written from the foundation of the world. I think you already know that.
The Bible mentions blotting out in a few places but I believe it is rare.
But no, I don`t think everyone is in it.
Ok.

What do you think of this:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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It's certainly not "our part" in the sense that Christ only saves us for the most part, then we have to help Him save us in part. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save. Our part or what must we do to be saved is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ/receive the gift of eternal life through faith. (Acts 16:31; Romans 3:24-28)
What we must do to be saved or else....

Salvation by our own works is showing in the above statement.
 

Noose

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Apr 18, 2016
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Do not look down upon me as being very argumentative and arrogant, not my intentions at all but i'll now try to come out openly and declare what triggered me somehow.

It is the second commandment, God took time to explain it.

Ex 20:
3“You shall have no other gods before a me.

4“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Deut 4:15So since you saw no form of any kind on the day the LORD spoke to you out of the fire at Horeb, be careful 16that you do not act corruptly and make an idol for yourselves of any form or shape, whether in the likeness of a male or female.

1. I know we are not under the law anymore but we are supposed to uphold it even more by this faith.

2. The command doesn't have any exceptions.

3. Christ is the image of the invisible God, clearly declared in the NT.

4. Christ now is a life giving spirit.

At #3 is where i'm having issues and have been thinking. How is Christ the image of the invisible God without us breaking the second command? Not only Christ but ourselves are the image of the invisible God.
 
Apr 7, 2014
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What rewards can a spirit get? A spirit is an understanding, what rewards can an understanding get?
Do you disregard rewards? 1 Corinthians 3:13 - each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

In Matthew 5:11, we read - Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

In Matthew 10:42, we read - And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.

In the parable of the minas, in Luke 19:15, we read - “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’ 19 Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’ The Bible also mentions various crowns that believers may receive.
 
Apr 7, 2014
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Judgement is based on keeping the commandments of God and never about their thoughts, this is the totality of scripture. Not a single scripture demonstrates judgement based on what people thought but what they did.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not judged/condemned; he who does not believe has been judged/condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. That is the dividing line between saved and lost. Keeping (Greek word "tereo" - guarding, observing, watching over) the commandments of God demonstrates that we have come to know Him/already know Him/already saved (1 John 2:3) but is not the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life.

The works of love are not a fruit of anything but obedience to God's command. Other aspects of love like patience/perseverance are fruits but obedience is everyone's choice.
You are confused. Galatians 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Works of obedience produced out of love are good works.

God does not cause anyone to obey or disobey and then judge them as being righteous or unrighteous.
Believers are not judged as being righteous/accounted as righteous based on works. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
 
Apr 7, 2014
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What we must do to be saved or else....

Salvation by our own works is showing in the above statement.
Paul clearly stated what we must do to be saved (or else) in Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.. Reading salvation by our own works into Acts 16:31 would an extreme case of eisegesis. How you can read salvation by our own works into Acts 16:31 is beyond me. If you can believe that, then you can believe anything! :eek:
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Children such as your hypothetical 2 year old must go to the white throne judgement. Many Christians think that everyone at this judgement is condemned but I disagree. The Bible says the book of Life is opened at the white throne judgement. I don`t think the book of life would be opened unless some obtain mercy and I believe young children will be at the top of God`s mercy list.
That cant be.. no one is resurrected and brought to the great white throne, the book says death and hades are delivered to christ.

A child of god is not delivered,

The book of life is there because people have to use their works as a defense. And jesus used the book to say depart from me for i never knew you
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Do you disregard rewards? 1 Corinthians 3:13 - each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

In Matthew 5:11, we read - Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

In Matthew 10:42, we read - And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.

In the parable of the minas, in Luke 19:15, we read - “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’ 19 Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’ The Bible also mentions various crowns that believers may receive.
Which part of us is a spirit?
If you know that, you would also know the reward is nothing more than life everlasting. A spirit can never have substance or material rewards an all there is that is not material is understanding.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Paul clearly stated what we must do to be saved (or else) in Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.. Reading salvation by our own works into Acts 16:31 would an extreme case of eisegesis. How you can read salvation by our own works into Acts 16:31 is beyond me. If you can believe that, then you can believe anything! :eek:
If there's anything you must do to obtain salvation ten salvation is not free. How i wish you see that but you would not.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not judged/condemned; he who does not believe has been judged/condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. That is the dividing line between saved and lost. Keeping (Greek word "tereo" - guarding, observing, watching over) the commandments of God demonstrates that we have come to know Him/already know Him/already saved (1 John 2:3) but is not the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life.

You are confused. Galatians 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Works of obedience produced out of love are good works.

Believers are not judged as being righteous/accounted as righteous based on works. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
Again;

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

Not according to what they thought.
 
Apr 7, 2014
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Which part of us is a spirit? If you know that, you would also know the reward is nothing more than life everlasting.
False. 1 Corinthians 3:13 - each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Using your logic, he will suffer loss of salvation, but he himself will be saved. o_O

A spirit can never have substance or material rewards an all there is that is not material is understanding.
Believers are not only spirit, but will have resurrected bodies. Do you not believe in a physical resurrection of the body? That sounds like what JW's teach.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Do you disregard rewards? 1 Corinthians 3:13 - each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

Revelation 22:12
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.
 
Apr 7, 2014
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Again;

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

Not according to what they thought.
Yes, repay each one according to what he has done. Other translations say reward each according to his works. *Now read Romans 4:4-6: Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

*Eternal life/Salvation is a gift and is not a reward received based on works (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9)
 
Apr 7, 2014
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2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

Revelation 22:12
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.
Again, see post #3,199.