Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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False. 1 Corinthians 3:13 - each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Using your logic, he will suffer loss of salvation, but he himself will be saved. o_O

Believers are not only spirit, but will have resurrected bodies. Do you not believe in a physical resurrection of the body? That sounds like what JW's teach.
Nope.

No such thing as physical resurrection of the body. A spiritual body is spirit.
What reward can a spirit get?

'If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved,' if the foundation is solid.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Yes, repay each one according to what he has done. Other translations say reward each according to his works. *Now read Romans 4:4-6: Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

*Eternal life/Salvation is a gift and is not a reward received based on works (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9)
Rom 4 condemns the works of the law. I don't think anyone talks of those works.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Again, see post #3,199.
Rom 4:9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

No one is talking about these kind of works. Circumcision and the likes.
 
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Nope.

No such thing as physical resurrection of the body. A spiritual body is spirit.
You are so wrong! The Bible makes it clear that Jesus Himself had a physical resurrected body. Jesus even made it plain to His disciples that He has a physical body. He is not a disembodied spirit: “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have” (Luke 24:39). Jesus even ate food (Luke 21:41-43)

1 Corinthians 15:35-49 describes what the body of the believer will be like in heaven. Our heavenly bodies will differ from our earthly ones in splendor, in power, and in longevity. The apostle Paul also states that the believer’s body will be an image of Christ’s body (verse 49). Believers will have a heavenly body like Jesus’ "glorious body" (Philippians). At His incarnation, Jesus took on human flesh, and at His resurrection, His body was glorified, although He retained the scars (John 20:27).

What reward can a spirit get? 'If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved,' if the foundation is solid.
Now you are just repeating yourself. See post #3,189.
 
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Rom 4 condemns the works of the law. I don't think anyone talks of those works.
Let me guess. You teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works/works of obedience/works of faith etc..) and just not "those" works (works of the law). I've heard this same flawed argument from Roman Catholics and others who teach salvation by works.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of obedience/work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works/works of obedience/works of faith could a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

*When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works/works of obedience/works of faith etc.. from the law, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (good works/works of obedience/works of faith) argument is bogus.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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You are so wrong! The Bible makes it clear that Jesus Himself had a physical resurrected body. Jesus even made it plain to His disciples that He has a physical body. He is not a disembodied spirit: “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have” (Luke 24:39). Jesus even ate food (Luke 21:41-43)

1 Corinthians 15:35-49 describes what the body of the believer will be like in heaven. Our heavenly bodies will differ from our earthly ones in splendor, in power, and in longevity. The apostle Paul also states that the believer’s body will be an image of Christ’s body (verse 49). Believers will have a heavenly body like Jesus’ "glorious body" (Philippians). At His incarnation, Jesus took on human flesh, and at His resurrection, His body was glorified, although He retained the scars (John 20:27).
1. Jesus had to resurrect bodily so that the gospel would be preached. If He had not, how would the gospel be preached? How would anyone tell another that Jesus died and was raised on the third day if His body, everyone could see rotting the grave?

2. Jesus told the disciples that He and the Father would come and make a home in them that believe Him, How does flesh and bones make a dwelling in your heart (mind).

3. Jesus resurrected spiritually immediately after His death

4. Paul says flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom which means the resurrection is nothing physical

5. Paul and Peter taught a resurrection and indwelling their 1st century listeners. Not possible with a body.
 
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Rom 4:9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

No one is talking about these kind of works. Circumcision and the likes.
There is much more to works than mere circumcision and when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect the kind of works you are talking about from the law. (Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15,16)
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Let me guess. You teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works/works of obedience/works of faith etc..) and just not "those" works (works of the law). I've heard this same flawed argument from Roman Catholics and others who teach salvation by works.

I don't teach we are saved by anything, work or a belief but abide in Christ's love by loving others. Which means, we are all justified and reconciled to God, only those that endure to the end by abiding in Christ shall be saved.

Again, i don't teach we have to do anything to obtain salvation but we have to abide in the salvation offered freely by Christ.
 
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1. Jesus had to resurrect bodily so that the gospel would be preached. If He had not, how would the gospel be preached? How would anyone tell another that Jesus died and was raised on the third day if His body, everyone could see rotting the grave?

2. Jesus told the disciples that He and the Father would come and make a home in them that believe Him, How does flesh and bones make a dwelling in your heart (mind).

3. Jesus resurrected spiritually immediately after His death

4. Paul says flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom which means the resurrection is nothing physical

5. Paul and Peter taught a resurrection and indwelling their 1st century listeners. Not possible with a body.
The resurrection of Jesus is a fundamental and essential doctrine of Christianity. Your false teaching is in line with the Jehovah's Witness. :eek:

https://carm.org/jesus-resurrection-was-physical
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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There is much more to works than mere circumcision and when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect the kind of works you are talking about from the law. (Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15,16)
I'm talking about the kind of works that have been demonstrated as being used to separate Goats and sheep during judgement.

Rev 14:
12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
 
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I don't teach we are saved by anything, work or a belief but abide in Christ's love by loving others. Which means, we are all justified and reconciled to God, only those that endure to the end by abiding in Christ shall be saved.

Again, i don't teach we have to do anything to obtain salvation but we have to abide in the salvation offered freely by Christ.
I'm sorry, but you are thoroughly mixed up. :(
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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The resurrection of Jesus is a fundamental and essential doctrine of Christianity. Your false teaching is in line with the Jehovah's Witness. :eek:

https://carm.org/jesus-resurrection-was-physical
Of course it is:

Matt 27:
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and e went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
 
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I'm talking about the kind of works that have been demonstrated as being used to separate Goats and sheep during judgement.

Rev 14:
12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
"Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" is descriptive of believers who die in the Lord. Salvation by works is not being taught in the parable of the sheep and goats or in Revelation 14:12-13.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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I'm sorry, but you are thoroughly mixed up. :(
1. Everyone is justified and reconciled.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

2. Not everyone stand saved in the end. Means the end is determined by what we do or fail to do.

3. Those that abide in Christ are saved

John 15:
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

I'm 100% not confused.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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"Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" is descriptive of believers who die in the Lord. Salvation by works is not being taught in the parable of the sheep and goats or in Revelation 14:12-13.
But is it being taught here?

Matt 25:
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 
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Of course it is:

Matt 27:
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and e went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
He gave up His spirit and his physical body remained to be buried. Yet on the third day, what happened to his body? (John 20:1-31)
 
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1. Everyone is justified and reconciled.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

2. Not everyone stand saved in the end. Means the end is determined by what we do or fail to do.

3. Those that abide in Christ are saved

John 15:
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

I'm 100% not confused.
You are thoroughly confused and continue to twist the scriptures. :(
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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You are thoroughly confused and continue to twist the scriptures. :(
How?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Doesn't this mean all men are justified and have life in Christ from the beginning?
 
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But is it being taught here?

Matt 25:
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
I already explained the parable of the sheep and goats to you in post #3,167 and the good deeds/works mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed, but are not the basis or means by which believers are accounted as righteous.

*Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.