Why No Women Are To Be Speaking In Church

[Mobius]

"take it up with G-d"

self-righteous much ? With all due respect, Sir, even Messiah Himself showed humility, as the Bible commands-

Let another man praise you, and not your own mouth;
A stranger, and not your own lips


Proverbs 27:2

Why don't we all just be honest with ourselves here ? There are some things, and religion is at the top of the list, where I don't believe anybody can completely remove the bias of their own interpretation, from teachiing.

So why don't we all just admit that, yes, we do have our beliefs, and they probably ARE going to influence how we interpret ecah verse. Hasidic lore holds that every passage in the Torah contains 70 different meanings. I find that it's true throughout the Bible, as well. In other words, even if a person has a right and true interpretation of scripture, it doesn't necessarily follow that all other interpretations are wrong.

That's how I see it, anyway. But down to business. We can take this down to chapter and verse, I really didn't think there was much dispute on the story of Esther. It's pretty straightforward.

First off, "only if there are no suitable men around" ? That's not the case in the story of Esther.

King Achashverosh was very pleased with Mordekhai

"So Haman.." (BOO!!!) ".. took the robes and the horse, dressed Mordekhai and led him riding through the streets of the city, as he proclaimed ahead of him, 'This is what is done for a mna whom the king wants to honor!' "

Esther 6:11

And we see in 6:2 why..

It was found written [in the records of the daily journal] that Mordekhai had told about Bigtana and Teresh, two fo the king's officers from the group in charge of the private entryways, who had conspired to assassinate King Achashverosh.

I would say he was both of suitable character, and in a suitable position to at least TRY to seek favor with the king.

Much more so than any woman, even a queen. We see as the story unfolds that for right or wrong, the king does tend to see women as property.

As I say she was humble, even before her selfless act. She submitted to the advice of Mordekhai(2:10 ; 4:8-14), who had raised her as his own, and was a very devoted daughter, although this does NOT necessarily indicate subservience.

THEN we get up to Esther 4:15-17 and we find an instruction that DIDN'T come from Mordekhai, but that the queen instructed TO Mordekhai (perhaps after consulting with her Rabbi, or someone else, who knows?)

Go assemble all the Jews to be found in Shushan, and have them fast for me, neither eating nor drinking for three days, night and day; also I and the girls attending me will fast the same way. Then I will go in to the king, which is against the law; and if I perish, I perish.

Then Mordekhai went his way and did everything Ester had ordered him to do.

There's not much room to doubt here. Fasting is a distinctly religious instruction.

I dont want to quote half the book, but chapter 7 is a great one. That's where Ester has the king come to another feast, and actually pleads her case. The king gets so mad, demands to know "where is the man who dared to do such a thing?" and when he finds out it's his trusted officer Haman (BOO!) has him hung on the very same gallows that Haman (BOO!) had built to hang Mordekhai "who spoke only good for the king."


And of course, she also wins his favor in the civil matter concerning the destruction of all the Jews

If it pleases the king, if I have won his favor, if the matter seem right to the king and if I have his approval, then let an order be written rescinding the letters devised by Haman the son of Hamdata the Agagi, which he wrote to destroy the Jews in all the royal provinces. For how can I bear to see the disaster that will overcome my people? How can I endure seeing the extermination of my kinsmen? ...

You should issue a decree in the king's name for whatever you want concerning the Jews, and seal it with the king's signet ring; because a decree written in the king's name and sealed with the king's ring can't be rescinded by anyone. Ester 8:5-8

Scripture is pretty clear here.

Oh, and lest there be any doubt about Mordekhai's qualifications TO have interceded, not ONLY did he save the king's life, he WAS remembered, as in 8:1-4 records that Mordekhai was given Haman's ring and his house, which was obviously of position of some significant authority.

 

[Jezreel]

He was not being self righteous, most probably just getting maybe close to being tired of others wanting to argue and wrest the scriptures to their own destruction. I say that sometimes too because I just get tired of people wanting to change what the word of God says and justify it. If people want to have women pastors that is fine and they can go to those denominations that permit such thing. I Christ's body which is not institutional but relational, you will not see or hear of a woman wanting to do what she knows will grieve God. That does not mean that she cannot be anointed by God. The older women are to teach the younger women to love their husband and their children and be keepers of the home.

 

[carpetmanswife]

*hands on hips* WELL!! everyone just needs to calm down!! its quite simple really ,we women cant possibly be busy making speeches in church ..who the heck would cook all that chicken eh??? *yes sarcasm intended * BUT ..honestly we do have our place...its the word...*walks away quietly

 

[Jezreel]

I forgot to share that just because our earthly vessels at times give women as well as men limitations, just because a woman is a housekeeper and mother and wife, her reward in heaven can be much greater than the biggest so called well known evangelist on earth when Jesus Christ hands out the rewards. If we set our affection on things above, we will not strive to continually be in want and desire for things that maybe outside the will of God. Today, it is so needed badly for women to be taught to be good mothers and housekeepers and love their children. For a man to come home to a clean house with a good cooked meal and his children waiting to surround him and jump and love on him,that is his castle. My three grown daughters are all great housekeepers and cooks and mothers and they do not feel like they are missing anything not having a "career". I know that the economy has hurt families and women have to go out and work and I sympathize with that. I can truly say that I was so blessed to be able to stay at home. Working was given to man as part of the fall and he had to work by the sweat of the brow. Women already have pain in childbirth, why the heck to they want the other curse!! The women's movement made it look desireable and it was deceptive. Women at home are covered by their husband and not exposed to places where adultery and fornication becomes an everyday temptation.

 

[Jezreel]

*hands on hips* WELL!! everyone just needs to calm down!! its quite simple really ,we women cant possibly be busy making speeches in church ..who the heck would cook all that chicken eh??? *yes sarcasm intended * BUT ..honestly we do have our place...its the word...*walks away quietly

That was really cool thanks!!

 

[Mobius]

Jezreel-

"He was not being self righteous, most probably just getting maybe close to being tired of others wanting to argue and wrest the scriptures to their own destruction. I say that sometimes too because I just get tired of people wanting to change what the word of God says and justify it."

I'm confused. Are you talking about what I just posted? Cause that was the Word of G-d. And it doesn't need to be "justified" by the likes of you or I. It stands on its own, and it says what it says.

 

[Jezreel]

Lots of misunderstandings can be cleared up if they are no more than communication break downs. I thought you were commenting on Thadeus comment of saying take it up with God. You said, "And it doesn't need to be justified by the likes of me"!! hee hee! I am not mad or upset. I'll put on my crown of persecution tonight and wimper into my pillow! So, sorry for upsetting you. All the trouble came into the world because of Eve being deceived and another woman, the great harlot, the false church, has brought in so much confusion. Churches you know are symbolic of a married woman. A harlot is a married woman who commits adultery, meaning the great harlot. The gates of hell will not prevail against the church, so God will restore those years that the cankerworm and palmerworm have destroyed.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Hey Baruch

Gess wot

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

No, serously

You're a riot, keep threads like this coming.

 

[Thaddaeus]

"take it up with G-d"

self-righteous much ? With all due respect, Sir, even Messiah Himself showed humility, as the Bible commands-

Let another man praise you, and not your own mouth;
A stranger, and not your own lips


Proverbs 27:2

Why don't we all just be honest with ourselves here ? There are some things, and religion is at the top of the list, where I don't believe anybody can completely remove the bias of their own interpretation, from teachiing.

So why don't we all just admit that, yes, we do have our beliefs, and they probably ARE going to influence how we interpret ecah verse. Hasidic lore holds that every passage in the Torah contains 70 different meanings. I find that it's true throughout the Bible, as well. In other words, even if a person has a right and true interpretation of scripture, it doesn't necessarily follow that all other interpretations are wrong.

That's how I see it, anyway. But down to business. We can take this down to chapter and verse, I really didn't think there was much dispute on the story of Esther. It's pretty straightforward.

First off, "only if there are no suitable men around" ? That's not the case in the story of Esther.

King Achashverosh was very pleased with Mordekhai

"So Haman.." (BOO!!!) ".. took the robes and the horse, dressed Mordekhai and led him riding through the streets of the city, as he proclaimed ahead of him, 'This is what is done for a mna whom the king wants to honor!' "

Esther 6:11

And we see in 6:2 why..

It was found written [in the records of the daily journal] that Mordekhai had told about Bigtana and Teresh, two fo the king's officers from the group in charge of the private entryways, who had conspired to assassinate King Achashverosh.

I would say he was both of suitable character, and in a suitable position to at least TRY to seek favor with the king.

Much more so than any woman, even a queen. We see as the story unfolds that for right or wrong, the king does tend to see women as property.

As I say she was humble, even before her selfless act. She submitted to the advice of Mordekhai(2:10 ; 4:8-14), who had raised her as his own, and was a very devoted daughter, although this does NOT necessarily indicate subservience.

THEN we get up to Esther 4:15-17 and we find an instruction that DIDN'T come from Mordekhai, but that the queen instructed TO Mordekhai (perhaps after consulting with her Rabbi, or someone else, who knows?)

Go assemble all the Jews to be found in Shushan, and have them fast for me, neither eating nor drinking for three days, night and day; also I and the girls attending me will fast the same way. Then I will go in to the king, which is against the law; and if I perish, I perish.

Then Mordekhai went his way and did everything Ester had ordered him to do.

There's not much room to doubt here. Fasting is a distinctly religious instruction.

I dont want to quote half the book, but chapter 7 is a great one. That's where Ester has the king come to another feast, and actually pleads her case. The king gets so mad, demands to know "where is the man who dared to do such a thing?" and when he finds out it's his trusted officer Haman (BOO!) has him hung on the very same gallows that Haman (BOO!) had built to hang Mordekhai "who spoke only good for the king."


And of course, she also wins his favor in the civil matter concerning the destruction of all the Jews

If it pleases the king, if I have won his favor, if the matter seem right to the king and if I have his approval, then let an order be written rescinding the letters devised by Haman the son of Hamdata the Agagi, which he wrote to destroy the Jews in all the royal provinces. For how can I bear to see the disaster that will overcome my people? How can I endure seeing the extermination of my kinsmen? ...

You should issue a decree in the king's name for whatever you want concerning the Jews, and seal it with the king's signet ring; because a decree written in the king's name and sealed with the king's ring can't be rescinded by anyone. Ester 8:5-8

Scripture is pretty clear here.

Oh, and lest there be any doubt about Mordekhai's qualifications TO have interceded, not ONLY did he save the king's life, he WAS remembered, as in 8:1-4 records that Mordekhai was given Haman's ring and his house, which was obviously of position of some significant authority.

if you are going to accuse, everyone that shows you scriptures, of being self righteous you are in the wrong room. I guess everyone can read a story and come up with different accounts of that story, I see Mordecai who was Esther's uncle told Esther all that she needed to do

talk about taking things out of contents


Es 8:2And the king took off his ring, which he had taken from Haman, and gave it unto Mordecai. And Esther set Mordecai over the house of Haman.
Mordecai had the power from the king by the King's ring not Esther. and esther put Mordecai over the house by being queen not a religious leader

 

[Mobius]

I'm not accusing people for bringing scriptures to the table. That's what we SHOULD be doing. I just don't appreicate being told "take it up with G-d" when in fact, scripture is the basis for what I'm saying, and I'm referring directly to that scripture.

If we have different interpretations, it's just that. I don't think anyone here has a magic phone to the Big Man upstairs, therefore a modicum of restraint and humility is called for, from ALL of us.

As I said, Queen Ester WAS shown to be both in the story, a civil AND a religious leader. Yes, it was in her role as a civil leader that she was able to place Mordekai over Haman's house. And yet, how can we deny that an order to fast for three days is distinctly a religious command ? We have no record Acheshverosh's people fasting, and in fact one of Haman's complaints against them was the fact that they did have different laws and customs that their host country, as Jews are prone to do anywhere. And we see these customs, not ONLY fasting, but also the wearing of sackcloth in the story.

So clearly, the command she gives is specifically to the Jews of the region, and it is specifically religious in nature. Both of these facts tell us that she had some sort of religious authority (though we don't know exactly what kind).

It doesn't mean she's a Rabbi, it doesn't mean she's a priestess, or a prophetess. We don't need to read anything into it that's not there. But that she exercised religious as well as civil authority in SOME fashion seems basically undeniable.

 

[Bob1953]

I’m guessing sometimes Paul misspoke.

 

[Densetzu]

I’m guessing sometimes Paul misspoke.

It's safe to say from what we've read in Acts and his epistles that Paul could be a bit of a hot head, yes.

 

[Thaddaeus]

This is too much for a late comer such as myself to catch up on.. so I hope I'm not repeating what's already been said.

But I gotta say, taking it back to the creation story doesn't really work. For example, what about Moshe and A'aron's sister, Miriam, whom scripture also calls a prophet?

Or what about the story of Esther? She was both a civil AND religious leader, and scripture is quite clear that the Israelites were not just blessed, but saved from total destruction, by her inspired plan, and the fact that all the Israelites did submit to her religious instructions.

this is the statement you made when I responded with "take it up with God" the Bible is the inspired Word of God. and the verse referrs back to the fall of man saying that the woman was deceived, so when you said "But I gotta say, taking it back to the creation story doesn't really work"
waht else could one say but if you have a problem with scripture then you need to take it up with God. there is nothing wrong or even self righteosu about telling someone to take it up with God That is what we should do when we have problems with understanding scriptures,

1ti 2:12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.1ti 2:13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.1ti 2:14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

 

[Buddee]

Thank you lord for freedom because every man women and child has the right to be wrong.

and most of us are.

I forgot to quote the first post. This is my response to it

T

Please tell me this person didn't get banned because of these 2 posts?

All this banning and threats of being kicked or banned for PM'ing certain folks over on the Voice Chat seems...wrong.

 

[Mobius]

this is the statement you made when I responded with "take it up with God" the Bible is the inspired Word of God. and the verse referrs back to the fall of man saying that the woman was deceived, so when you said "But I gotta say, taking it back to the creation story doesn't really work"
waht else could one say but if you have a problem with scripture then you need to take it up with God. there is nothing wrong or even self righteosu about telling someone to take it up with God That is what we should do when we have problems with understanding scriptures,

Is... is that a serious question? I mean, you claim to be a Pastor! Call me kooky but the Pastors and Rabbis I know, tend to have a way with words. No offense, brother, but it strikes me as cop-out to act as if you have no choice, or there's nothing else you can say.

Again, we all have our interpretations of scripture, and that's okay. I don't know what it is that makes so many people convinced that their own interpretations are 100% right and true, but I can tell you it's NOT a spirit of humility.

I can't see anywhere in this thread, where I said I "have a problem with scripture" brother... Perhaps you would be so kind as to point that out to me? Unless, maybe you were inferring somebody I wasn't actually implying .. ?

Yes, the creation story in Genesis is real, biblical and true. "It doesn't work" because G-d has smiled upon females in authority roles AFTER that. If the interpretation presented was true, and G-d never wanted to see a woman in any authority over any man, for any reason, how could His favor come upon such situations ? Lest anyone need reminded, BOTH Adam AND Eve were deceived, and BOTH ate the fruit. Now if someone would like to make the claim, that Eve is guilty twice, once as deceived, and again as deceiver, that's another matter, and off topic from what I was saying.

But I HAVE shown successfully that G-d has Himself appointed women to serve as religious leaders, AND even shown His mercy and seems pleased with religious leaders, like Ester, who were NOT appointed by G-d.

Now if *I* wanted to be self-righteous, I could of course flip your argument back on its head "Got a problem with the story of Ester? Take it up with G-d!" but where would that get us? That would mean I had sinned not only in pride, but was intentionally trying to stir up conflict amongst the brethren, something I have no desire to do, and something I don't believe G-d wants to see out of us.

I'll point out to you that in the passage you just quoted, Paul himself admits that is not a command from G-d, but his own instruction, *I* do not allow a woman to teach...

So while you're free to follow his example, if that's what you feel is right, it's a little disingenuous to portray that as a clear and inarguable instruction straight from G-d, when in fact, I've already shown you scriptures contrary to what you're saying.

 

[Dread_Zeppelin]

Wow. What a horribly sexist twist on out of context scriptures.

 

[Arel]

All the trouble came into the world because of Eve being deceived

I think you missed the part of the story that shows ADAM is just as much at fault for sin entering the world as Eve. She might have eaten the fruit first, but ADAM was standing RIGHT NEXT TO HER when she did it...and he didn't say a word to stop her and just watched.

So, actually, if we're playing the blame game, I would place a majority of the fault on ADAM, and NOT on Eve.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Is... is that a serious question? I mean, you claim to be a Pastor! Call me kooky but the Pastors and Rabbis I know, tend to have a way with words. No offense, brother, but it strikes me as cop-out to act as if you have no choice, or there's nothing else you can say.

Again, we all have our interpretations of scripture, and that's okay. I don't know what it is that makes so many people convinced that their own interpretations are 100% right and true, but I can tell you it's NOT a spirit of humility.

I can't see anywhere in this thread, where I said I "have a problem with scripture" brother... Perhaps you would be so kind as to point that out to me? Unless, maybe you were inferring somebody I wasn't actually implying .. ?

Yes, the creation story in Genesis is real, biblical and true. "It doesn't work" because G-d has smiled upon females in authority roles AFTER that. If the interpretation presented was true, and G-d never wanted to see a woman in any authority over any man, for any reason, how could His favor come upon such situations ? Lest anyone need reminded, BOTH Adam AND Eve were deceived, and BOTH ate the fruit. Now if someone would like to make the claim, that Eve is guilty twice, once as deceived, and again as deceiver, that's another matter, and off topic from what I was saying.

But I HAVE shown successfully that G-d has Himself appointed women to serve as religious leaders, AND even shown His mercy and seems pleased with religious leaders, like Ester, who were NOT appointed by G-d.

Now if *I* wanted to be self-righteous, I could of course flip your argument back on its head "Got a problem with the story of Ester? Take it up with G-d!" but where would that get us? That would mean I had sinned not only in pride, but was intentionally trying to stir up conflict amongst the brethren, something I have no desire to do, and something I don't believe G-d wants to see out of us.

I'll point out to you that in the passage you just quoted, Paul himself admits that is not a command from G-d, but his own instruction, *I* do not allow a woman to teach...

So while you're free to follow his example, if that's what you feel is right, it's a little disingenuous to portray that as a clear and inarguable instruction straight from G-d, when in fact, I've already shown you scriptures contrary to what you're saying.

could you humor alittle here and show me one example of God using a woman as a religious leader, Please keep in mind if you do read my post with open eyes that a prophet or prophetess has no authority in the Church , Prophecy is to edify not to correct or reprove, also to minister is to aid to help may not also have a position attached to someone who Ministers

 

[Mobius]

I just did. It's the first post on page 9 here.

 

[Thaddaeus]

I think you missed the part of the story that shows ADAM is just as much at fault for sin entering the world as Eve. She might have eaten the fruit first, but ADAM was standing RIGHT NEXT TO HER when she did it...and he didn't say a word to stop her and just watched.

So, actually, if we're playing the blame game, I would place a majority of the fault on ADAM, and NOT on Eve.

who was to blame has nothing to do with what Mobious and I are talking about. I think you missed our conversation so please excuse me if I don't continue the blame game with you>!!!!!