Why the Adversary HATES the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection-Rapture

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88

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2016
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#21
PART II

II. WHY IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?
There are excellent biblical reasons why the Rapture is BEFORE the Tribulation period.

1. The Rapture is always imminent in Scripture

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (Mt 24:36-42)

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Mt 25:10-13)

2. The Tribulation is for unbelieving Jews, not for the redeemed Church

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people [Israel]: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)

Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's [Israel’s] trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. (Jer 30:6,7)

3. The righteous were always delivered from God’s wrath BEFORE it came upon the ungodly and the wicked.
A. Enoch raptured into Heaven before the Flood
B. Noah and his family placed in the Ark before the Flood
C. Lot and his family taken out of Sodom before its destruction
D. Rahab taken out of Jericho before its destruction
E. Believers to be saved from wrath, and all believers to be watchful and prayerful

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth... And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Rev 3:10; Lk 21:34-36).
+++another reason some reject pre-trib rapture is they support Replacement Theology. They don't believe those mentioned in Revelation like the 144,000 are Jews, but actually the Church. This is a sad teaching which alots Grace to the Church, yet rejects the Original Branches, the Jews.
:
 

88

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2016
3,517
75
48
#22
+++another reason some reject pre-trib rapture is they support Replacement Theology. They don't believe those mentioned in Revelation like the 144,000 are Jews, but actually the Church. This is a sad teaching which alots Grace to the Church, yet rejects the Original Branches, the Jews.
:
+++ I can understand the hatred of the devil towards the pre-trib rapture, but not within the Church. Both views should not cause division or strife. To be ready for the Lord is the main focus and bringing in the Harvest. Promoting one view or another in strife is the devil's work.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#23
POST TRIBULATION/PRE-WRATH ingathering.....7th trump of REVELATION.....ONE coming (body presence and our gathering together) ALL things must JIVE with ONE (1) COMING.........
 
Apr 4, 2018
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#24
This is why it is important to understand who we are in Christ, as the one new man. The ministry of reconciliation, in the dispensation of the grace of God toward all men, ends in a "moment", in the twinkling of an eye, with a shout. An "appearing", is not a "coming", if something is different, it is not the same. Christ "appeared" to Saul, and He will "appear" for the new creature.

Revelation of the mystery, can only be understood by "rightly dividing the word of truth", separating truth from truth, because all of God's word is truth.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,128
2,349
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#25
Brother Nehemiah , this is thee issue , upon this Pre-Rapture doctrine that i cannot agree with. Due to Galatians 3:28

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off , and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

So when we are re-examining scripture upon Daniel thy people [ Israel ] a future event , this cannot be meant only towards thee unbelieving Jews nor 144,000 that have not lied & are without fault. But also include the Gentiles that have been grafted into the olive tree.
Greetings vic1980,

Do not make the mistake of using the scriptures of Gal.3:28 or any other scripture to do away with the nation Israel. The church is made of both Jew and Gentile, which is a separate dispensation from the nation Israel who did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah and still consider themselves under the Law given by God to Moses.

In Dan.9:24, seventy seven year periods were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. This time period is divided into three parts:

7 sevens = restore and rebuild Jerusalem

62 sevens = at the end of which the Messiah would be cut off, Christ crucified.

To date, 69 of those seven year periods have been fulfilled, with the Lord putting a pause on that last seven years and where He began to build His church, which is still in the process of being built. Once the church has been completed, the Lord with gather us and take the entire church back to the Father's house according to His promise in John 14:1-3. Following this, God will pick up right where He left off with the nation Israel, fulfilling that last seven years, which will be initiated by that antichrist making his seven year covenant/treaty with Israel, making it possible for them to build their temple, complete with sacrifices.

Thy people [ Israel + Gentiles Believers ] Daniel 12:1
The above is replacement theology, also called supressionism, which is the belief that the church has replaced God's people Israel and have acquired their promises and blessings.

Regarding the nation Israel proper, Paul said the following:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In the scriptures above, Paul is not talking about the church as spiritual Israel, but about the unbelieving nation of Israel. God has unfinished business with His people Israel and will deal with them during that last seven years. In support of this, this is what God has said regarding Israel and which we have witnessed taking place:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For I will take you from among the nations and gather you out of all the countries, and I will bring you back into your own land. 25I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. 26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.
28Then you will live in the land that I gave your forefathers; you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will summon the grain and make it plentiful, and I will not bring famine upon you. 30I will also make the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field plentiful, so that you will no longer bear reproach among the nations on account of famine.

31Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and abominations. 32It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD—let it be known to you. Be ashamed and disgraced for your own ways, O house of Israel!’

33This is what the Lord GOD says: ‘On the day I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be resettled and the ruins to be rebuilt. 34The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through. 35Then they will say, “This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden. The cities that were once ruined, desolate, and destroyed are now fortified and inhabited.”

36Then the nations around you that remain will know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt what was destroyed, and I have replanted what was desolate. I, the LORD, have spoken, and I will do it.’

37This is what the Lord GOD says: ‘Once again I will hear the plea of the house of Israel and do for them this: I will multiply their people like a flock. 38Like the numerous flocks for sacrifices at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so the ruined cities will be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the LORD.’"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For 1900 years, Israel was a desolate wasteland and now it is a flourishing Eden. They returned from all the nations that God scattered them to so that they are now back in their own land. They have just celebrated their 70th year as a nation and president Trump did what no other president did, he did not sign the waiver and thereby acknowledged Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, as it should be. Most of Israel's neighbors hate her, as well as many of the worlds nations and this just as scripture said they would.

Remember, the church and the nation Israel are two separate dispensations, with different promises and different paths. The church, which is made up of Jew and Gentile will not be here during that last seven years, which is also when God's wrath will be poured out. Israel however, will be here on the earth with God finishing up that last seven years to accomplish the following:

"“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

As Christians, we should support Israel and pray for her. Those who are against her, no matter what they call themselves, are enemies of God.



[/QUOTE]
 

vic1980

Senior Member
Apr 25, 2013
1,653
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#26
The above is replacement theology, also called supressionism, which is the belief that the church has replaced God's people Israel and have acquired their promises and blessings.
I am not sure how did you come to this conclusion on my post Ahwatukee ??? If you Re-read my post #5 upon this thread , i clearly made my point towards the unbelieving Jews , 144,000 that have not lied & are without fault , along with the Gentile Believers.

That is why i included the following:

Thy people [ Israel + Gentiles Believers ] Daniel 12:1

Due that this is the Bride of Christ. Now on this Pre-Tribulation Doctrine , let us examine what did The Lord say upon the wheat & thee tares.



Matthew 13

The Parable of the Weeds

(Ezekiel 17:1-10)​


24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


There is no indication or teaching that Christ taught , His Disciples that He would gather some of thee wheat first , then gather the rest of the wheat at another appointed time Ahwatukee . If Christ did not teach it who did hmm...

I believe Thee Apostle Paul would have agree with Christ teaching upon the wheat & tares.

For those that have been given thee pre rapture doctrine , upon being sweep away and not be persecuted for Christ. Please consider the following , i am sharing this truth with love for thee brethren in Christ.

Now process this thought into your mind for a moment , ask God for wisdom on this. If the Lord gave His Disciples clarity upon how it will resolve and they understood clearly ( See Matthew 13:51 ) , and two thousand plus years later in this generation another comes to you and eagerly is pointing you to a detour , a short cut to get to the Kingdom of God.

Would you put your Faith in the individual that tickled your ears with the easy route , or will you stand strong with what the Lord taught how things were to be at the time of the harvest.

Please ask God for wisdom , and study what is being presented to you in love & truth. Examine the Red , blue & purple scriptures along with the parable in it's entirely.


Thee Apostle of Jesus Christ , Paul taught :

2 Timothy 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

With this truth being presented , due that it is Christ Himself , that taught His Disciples clearly how it will all resolve at thee appointed time . I have no choice but to withdraw from this conversation in hopes that you may be lead to Christ very own Words.

Matthew 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.


Shalom
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,128
2,349
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#27
I am not sure how did you come to this conclusion on my post Ahwatukee ??? If you Re-read my post #5 upon this thread , i clearly made my point towards the unbelieving Jews , 144,000 that have not lied & are without fault , along with the Gentile Believers.

That is why i included the following:

Thy people [ Israel + Gentiles Believers ] Daniel 12:1
Though it is true that there will be a resurrection of all people in Christ, Dan.12:1 regarding "Thy people" would be referring to Daniel's people, i.e. Israel and not Gentile believers aka the church.

Due that this is the Bride of Christ. Now on this Pre-Tribulation Doctrine , let us examine what did The Lord say upon the wheat & thee tares.



Matthew 13

The Parable of the Weeds

(Ezekiel 17:1-10)​


24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


There is no indication or teaching that Christ taught , His Disciples that He would gather some of thee wheat first , then gather the rest of the wheat at another appointed time Ahwatukee . If Christ did not teach it who did hmm...

I believe Thee Apostle Paul would have agree with Christ teaching upon the wheat & tares.

The wheat and the tares is speaking about those great tribulation saints who make it through alive until Christ returns to the earth to end the age and those counterfeit Christians,
The wheat is representing those who will come to the knowledge of Christ after the church has been removed. The tares or weeds are imposters that will continue to the end with the true believers of that time, where they will be sorted out by the Lord when He returns to the earth to end the age. The wheat and the tares does not do away with the event of the resurrection and the living in Christ being changed and caught up.

For those that have been given thee pre rapture doctrine , upon being sweep away and not be persecuted for Christ. Please consider the following , i am sharing this truth with love for thee brethren in Christ.
First of all, you are already in error by referring to the church as "not being persecuted for Christ." Once the church has been removed, the "day of the Lord" will begin, which is the time of God's wrath and which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The word of God says that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that He will keep us out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth (I Thes.1:10, 5:9 and Rev.3:10). Therefore, the living church cannot enter that time of wrath, which begins with the opening of the first seal and will be gathered as promised. Furthermore, if the church was here on the earth during the time of God's wrath, then we would also suffer from it, which would go against the scriptures previously mentioned. To be clear, if the church was on the earth during that time, we would definitely be suffering for the testimony of Jesus, but we would also be suffering the wrath of God. To understand this, Go and read up on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and you will see that they are from God and that there would be no way for the church to escape them. We simply can't be here.

Also and as I have continued to make known, in Rev.1:19, John was told to write down the following:

What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the church, which also represents the entire church period

What will take place later = The events which take place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period

That said, we are currently still in the "what is now" i.e. the church period. Once the Lord gathers the church, the church "what is now" will be completed and the "what must take place later" will begin. Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up when that voice that sounds like a trumpet says "come up here." In support of this, we no longer see the word "Ekklesia" translated as "church" during the narrative of God's wrath in Chapters 6 thru 18. The next time the church is alluded to, is in Rev.19:7 as the bride at the wedding of the Lamb, in heaven and receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Rev.19:14 then shows the bride/church following Christ out of heaven wearing that same fine linen, as He returns to the earth to end the age, demonstrating that the church is already in heaven. The next time we actually see the word "church" again, is in Rev.22:16, which is outside of the narrative within the epilog.

Now process this thought into your mind for a moment , ask God for wisdom on this. If the Lord gave His Disciples clarity upon how it will resolve and they understood clearly ( See Matthew 13:51 ) , and two thousand plus years later in this generation another comes to you and eagerly is pointing you to a detour , a short cut to get to the Kingdom of God.
Would you put your Faith in the individual that tickled your ears with the easy route , or will you stand strong with what the Lord taught how things were to be at the time of the harvest.

Please ask God for wisdom , and study what is being presented to you in love & truth. Examine the Red , blue & purple scriptures along with the parable in it's entirely.


First of all, you are not corresponding with a new Christian, but one who was drawn to the study of end-time events over 40 years ago. So, please stop with the "ask God for wisdom" stuff, because every day I give thanks for His word and ask Him to reveal it to me and have been doing so in all of my studies. In other words, this is why I have the information that I do and which I have been sharing with you. Anything that you can think of, I have already gone over with a fine tooth comb many times. I am forever camped out in the book of Revelation, as well as the rest of scripture. I know the arguments and the apologetics for most of the Biblical topics that are being distorted in these last days.

Thee Apostle of Jesus Christ , Paul taught :
2 Timothy 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

With this truth being presented , due that it is Christ Himself , that taught His Disciples clearly how it will all resolve at thee appointed time . I have no choice but to withdraw from this conversation in hopes that you may be lead to Christ very own Words.

Matthew 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.


Shalom
Paul, Timothy and the entire first century church suffered for their testimony of Christ and the word of God. What they did not suffer was the wrath of God. Currently, there are people who are being persecuted and killed in different places around the world, because they belong to Christ, but what they are not suffering is the wrath of God. What is coming after the church is gathered, will be the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, which the church cannot be exposed to, for it is not the same as persecution for Christ's name sake, but will be poured out upon a Christ rejecting world and anyone who is here will be exposed to said wrath, including the great tribulation saints.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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#28
To say that those who do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture are not Bible believers as you have here::



Is a false accusation.. it is a case of a person being an accuser of the brethren... I hope one day you repent of this slander..

The blessed Hope is NOT the rapture.. The Blessed hope is salvation itself and eternal life with our LORD Jesus Christ in His perfect eternal existence..

The pre-tribulation rapture is Not supported by the scriptures.. But i will never slander those who believe in it as being people who only claim to be Christians that are supporting lies... Such a toxic decisive and unnecessary like statements go beyond what is good in fellowship between Christians who disagree on what is not a core salvation doctrine matter..
I agree with everything you say in this post. All I want to add is at last one of these Pre Tribbers have stuck their head over the parapet
and openly admitted that they think those who do not agree with this teaching are not Christians. Instead of using just inferring it.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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#29
Hebrews 9:28

"so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Pre trib rapture doctrine requires not only a second but a third coming of Christ.
Well why don't you show us a Bible passage which places the Rapture after the tribulation? All the rest is neither here not there.

Hebrews 9:28

"so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Where in scripture is the third coming of Christ that a pre-trib doctrine relies on?

We know he has been once. We know he will come again. We don't have any scriptural support that he will make a third appearance.

I don't see this "imminence" in scripture at all. It looks like a man-made doctrine.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
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#30
God offered the Messiah to the Jews. The Jews rejected Him, and reaped the results of it in 70 ad.

God then offered the Christ to the world. The world is rejecting Him, and will soon reap the results of that.

There was a rich man who took pride in what he had stored up on earth for his future. But his life was demanded that night.

That heart attack, that car crash, that your-ticket-is-punched moment ... that's your rapture.

Pray for pre, prepare for post, and be ready even now.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,529
7,652
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#31
Hebrews 9:28

"so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."
It is crystal clear that this verse is a reference to the Rapture, not the second coming of Christ.

1. Who are those "waiting for him"? Believers who expect and anticipate the Rapture at any time.

2. What does Christ bring the second time? "Salvation" or more precisely "the completion of salvation" which is glorification. All the saints (living and dead) will be perfected and glorified at that time (1 John 3:1-3) -- "we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is".

3. Since Christ comes "in the air" momentarily and immediately returns to Heaven at the Rapture, there is no second coming to earth. So what this verse says is that Christ came the first time "to take away sins" by the sacrifice of Himself. But now -- the second time -- He comes to complete the salvation of the Church.

In contrast the second coming of Christ to earth is to BRING JUDGMENT upon the ungodly.

JUDE 1
14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
 

EarnestQ

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2016
2,588
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#32
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now lettethwill let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (2 Thess 2:7,8).

You interpretation of this verse is a common one, but it is not unanimous nor absolute. We simply do not know who it is talking about. It could easily be a mighty angel. This verse is not sufficient to create the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture. Indeed, no individual verse is sufficient to create a pre-trib rapture.

The unspoken assumption about the pre-trib rapture is that All of dispensationalism proves it, therefore it much be true. Even Dispensationalists admit that there is no justification for the pre-trib rapture without Dispensationalism. The assumption is that since Dispensationalism is true, the pre-trib rapture must be true.

This is circular reasoning. Dispensationalism was constructed specifically to justify the existance of the pre-trib rapture.

The teaching existed before Darby proof-texted it with verses like this. All of Dispensationalism is a proof-text to support the pre-trib rapture.

Robert Baxter in his book "Narrative of the Facts" (1832?) tells how he was one of the "prophets" at Edward Irving's church in London. He prophesied a pre-trib rapture as he was lead by "the power". He had a number of successful prophecies. He also had a few unsuccessful ones. He concluded that the "power" that led him to prophecy was not of God but of the enemy. He renounced all his participation in Irving's church and his own false prophecies and charged them with following the teachings of demons.

This is reason for me to suspect the possibility of the pre-trib rapture being a demonic teaching.

That, and the arrogant authoritarian attitude of Dispensationalist teachers. (I can provide many documented examples of this.)

I have noticed that teachers, churches and individuals who have an authoritarian attitude do not reflect the truth and love of Christ. Truth must be equally balanced with love (and love, truth) to best reflect the nature of God. (See my signature.)
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
821
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#33
POST TRIBULATION/PRE-WRATH ingathering.....7th trump of REVELATION.....ONE coming (body presence and our gathering together) ALL things must JIVE with ONE (1) COMING.........

Finally! Someone who believes differently than me who I KNOW I can ask for verses and I'll darn well get them! :)
dcon, what are the verses that convince you that it must be ONLY one coming.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
821
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#34
You interpretation of this verse is a common one, but it is not unanimous nor absolute.
If more people could have this sensical approach, there could be less arguments and more discussion. There could be disagreement but not anger and frustration. Ah, but that would necessitate all having to admit that their views have some opinion in them...:D
 

EarnestQ

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2016
2,588
310
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#35
It is crystal clear that this verse is a reference to the Rapture, not the second coming of Christ.
NO IT IS NOT!

You say it does not mean the second coming even though it says "he will appear a second time". That it does apply to the second coming is just your presumption. It clearly says that Christ will come a second time. That can only mean His Second Coming.

One of the things that disturbs me so much about Dispensationalism is the way it twists verses like this (and so many others).

Those indoctrinated into Dispensationaism cannot see other possible meanings of the passages. It is identical to the way Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses proof-text verses to justify their own beliefs.

Again, Dispensationalism was first designed to "proof-text" the pre-trib rapture.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
5,392
3,570
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#36
It is crystal clear that this verse is a reference to the Rapture, not the second coming of Christ.

1. Who are those "waiting for him"? Believers who expect and anticipate the Rapture at any time.

2. What does Christ bring the second time? "Salvation" or more precisely "the completion of salvation" which is glorification. All the saints (living and dead) will be perfected and glorified at that time (1 John 3:1-3) -- "we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is".

3. Since Christ comes "in the air" momentarily and immediately returns to Heaven at the Rapture, there is no second coming to earth. So what this verse says is that Christ came the first time "to take away sins" by the sacrifice of Himself. But now -- the second time -- He comes to complete the salvation of the Church.

In contrast the second coming of Christ to earth is to BRING JUDGMENT upon the ungodly.

JUDE 1
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

There are easily enough saints already in heaven as we speak to make up an army. Since we are to be changed in the twinkling of an eye there is no reason to assume we couldn't join them instantly.
At least you are admitting that what you are teaching is three comings of Jesus.

But If I don't buy into that you reckon he isn't going to take me right?

If so salvation has become dependent on belief in Jesus AND a PRE_TRIB rapture. Which is the theory's biggest weakness. To believe in that means one can't really believe in Jesus at all. Whatever the timing of the 'rapture' he comes for his whole body, the church. Not only parts that agree on a specific timing.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
5,392
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#37
There is no crystal clear indication of a long interval between two events.
The 'rapture' & the second coming needn't be separated by a long expanse of time. They could easily occur simultaneously.
The scripture has the dead rising first and the living being changed instantaneously. In a moment. In the twinkling of an eye.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#38
This whole "thing" of "Rapture", and "Dispensationalism", is just so much "Tradition of Men" teachings, that makes "Void" the Word of God! Believers of these absurdities, should pray the Father help them in removing these traditions, which make His WORD to "become" void!

Even during this "dispensation of Grace?", or "Church Age?" Those who are considered "outsiders", or even "wolves in sheep's clothing", and to some, even "gnostics", or are "contentious" amongst the brethern, and are therefore "cast out" from the collective "traditional teachings", are not the ones "of the body of Christ", that are as Paul WARNED, "ALL", 1 shoulder, or "ALL" 1 foot. And, so being NOT of "our" part of the body? Are NOT 1 of "us", NOR, (even) of Christ!

I would refer to Ezekiel 13 in the KJV, where God said that He would "snatch them out of "your" hands!" And, THEN, when He hits their walls with a heavy rain that washes away the "untempered mortar", like we are seeing so much of on a PLANETARY scale, these days? The "only" message coming out of these walls, is "Why, they are just showing how MUCH, or how BADLY they NEED Jesus! Do y'all actually BELIEVE that it is satan doing this? To be more accurate, it is God ALLOWING satan, to do this! And, that be "converting" these "ENEMIES" to the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light, be converting them is going to cause God to "curb" His allowing satan in this? How "NAIVE" CAN YOU BE? During all this time? God is is constantly "challenging, and taunting:" "WHERE is that mortar NOW?!!?" "How are "your" walls holding up NOW!??!"

The "niavity" comes in believing, your going to "fly away", like so many little "birdy's!" ABOVE, and beyond this "flood!" Not even realizing how many "holes" are in your boat, and, that which you are "feeling", is NOT a "flying away!" Rather, the "sinking" of your boat, in the midst of the heavy rains.

Just in case, you are under the auspices, that this is occurring because they simply need to be "saved?" You are in grave error. Because there ARE "ENEMIES" That don't NEED "saving!" They NEED to be killed! Or? Just keep on "tolerating" them with your love, allowing them to help you in applying "untempored mortar", and go down WITH THEM!

The sooner you realize, we are NOT in a popularity contest WITH the "world", and that we are to "STAND OUT" AGAINST "the world", the more "perfect", or "mature in the Spirit", you'll be! Then, it would be y'all "seeing" these matters concerning these "traditions" concerning "rapture", and "dispensationalism!"

"Say Ward?" "You were a little "rough" on the Beaver, weren't you?" :giggle:
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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#39
You interpretation of this verse is a common one, but it is not unanimous nor absolute. We simply do not know who it is talking about. It could easily be a mighty angel. This verse is not sufficient to create the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture. Indeed, no individual verse is sufficient to create a pre-trib rapture.

The unspoken assumption about the pre-trib rapture is that All of dispensationalism proves it, therefore it much be true. Even Dispensationalists admit that there is no justification for the pre-trib rapture without Dispensationalism. The assumption is that since Dispensationalism is true, the pre-trib rapture must be true.

This is circular reasoning. Dispensationalism was constructed specifically to justify the existance of the pre-trib rapture.

The teaching existed before Darby proof-texted it with verses like this. All of Dispensationalism is a proof-text to support the pre-trib rapture.

Robert Baxter in his book "Narrative of the Facts" (1832?) tells how he was one of the "prophets" at Edward Irving's church in London. He prophesied a pre-trib rapture as he was lead by "the power". He had a number of successful prophecies. He also had a few unsuccessful ones. He concluded that the "power" that led him to prophecy was not of God but of the enemy. He renounced all his participation in Irving's church and his own false prophecies and charged them with following the teachings of demons.

This is reason for me to suspect the possibility of the pre-trib rapture being a demonic teaching.

That, and the arrogant authoritarian attitude of Dispensationalist teachers. (I can provide many documented examples of this.)

I have noticed that teachers, churches and individuals who have an authoritarian attitude do not reflect the truth and love of Christ. Truth must be equally balanced with love (and love, truth) to best reflect the nature of God. (See my signature.)
Edward Irving was also responsible for translating Manuel de Lacunzas book titled The coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty
from Spanish into English. Lacunza, a Jesuit Priest was commissioned by the Pope to offset the accusation that he was the Antichrist
by pushing all the last day prophecies into the distant future. The futurist interpretation of end time events owes a lot to him

Irving started what he called the Catholic Apostolic Church and was thrown thrown out for blasphemy in that he believed that Christ was born with a sinful nature. Two other associates of Irvin were John Darby whose authoritarian leadership presided over his breakaway Brethren cult and Scofield who after conversion defrauded his Mother in Law out of her life savings and went to prison for it. He also left his Wife and Children destitute. No suprise that you wont find any of this in his famous notes.
 
Apr 4, 2018
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#40
Remember, there was no Christianity before Christ appeared to the Apostle Paul.

God revealed hidden wisdom which He wrought in Christ on the cross, and a new program began, for us and our salvation, toward a purpose which God had purposed in Christ. Paul says, "for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him"

This is when we begin to hear the doctrines of our ministry, the ministry of reconciliation, we read about a new creature God is forming, and the mystery of Christ, and the forming of "the church the body of Christ", which is called the one new man.

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father