Why the Adversary HATES the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection-Rapture

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Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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#41
Well why don't you show us a Bible passage which places the Rapture after the tribulation?
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After trib - last trumpet - gather elect {in the twinkling of an eye}
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#42
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After trib - last trumpet - gather elect {in the twinkling of an eye}
Sorry but you are confusing the elect of the believing Jewish remnant (being gathered up by angels) with the Church. And here is why you are totally incorrect.

The above is a description of what happens at the end of the Great Tribulation, which is then followed by the second coming of Christ. But since Christ's comes WITH His saints (the Church) and angels at that time, they were already taken up to Heaven long before the second coming. So we need to keep things in their proper order.

Please note above: ...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory...

What are these "clouds of heaven"? They are not the clouds of water vapor in our atmospheric heaven. Since Christ comes with His saints from God's Heaven (the third heaven), who are all glorious and dressed in white, riding on white horses, and accompanied by the angels, who are all radiating light, and give the appearance of whiteness, "clouds" here is a metaphor for the clouds of saints and angels surrounding Christ at His second coming. Please note:

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev 19:14)

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. (2 Thess 1:7-10)

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14,15)

And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech 14:5)

As you can see, the saints are ALREADY with Christ at His second coming, therefore the gathering of "the elect" applies to the believing Jewish remnant that has been preserved during the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation.

Christ will gather all the Jews from around the world AFTER His second coming, but only one-third of the total will be "the elect" and will enter into the redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel at the Millennium. "All Israel" would be "All true Israel" or "All believing Israel", since the unbelievers will never be saved.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Rom 11:25-27)
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
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#43
Gather His elect
Sorry but you are confusing the elect .......
Nope.

COLOSSIANS 3 [10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: [11] Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. [12] Put on therefore, AS THE ELECT OF GOD, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Speaking to the church. The ELECT of God. Neither greek or Jew
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#44
Gather His elect
Speaking to the church. The ELECT of God. Neither greek or Jew
You simply ignored everything I said and then took this Scripture out of context.

Of course those within the Church are also called "the elect", but that has nothing to do with what happens after the second coming of Christ. So please read my post again and see why you are mistaken. It takes character to admit our mistakes.
 
Apr 4, 2018
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#45
What is the point of the catching away of the "one new man", why is it necessary to the truth and doctrine of God, according to the revelation of the mystery? Part of it is the fact that during the ministry of reconciliation, God is at peace. On that day, the "gospel of peace" and this ministry ends.

But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#46
What is the point of the catching away of the "one new man", why is it necessary to the truth and doctrine of God, according to the revelation of the mystery?
Unless you fully understand the fulness of God's plan of salvation, you will not understand why it is "necessary". BTW it is not "one new man" but the whole body of believers -- the Body of Christ -- the Church.

God's ultimate plan for every sinner who is saved by grace is to make that person exactly like Christ -- perfect in spirit, soul, and body, free from the taint of sin, the guilt of sin, the presence of sin, the corruption of sin, the corruption of death, and the corruption of the old Adamic nature. Therefore God has planned the Resurrection-Rapture of the saints.

As to the catching up before the Tribulation, it is necessary that the Bride of Christ be removed from the earth -- along with the Holy Spirit -- BEFORE God allows the Antichrist and Satan to take full control of the earth for 3 1/2 years. During that time there will be Tribulation, and after that time there will be Great Tribulation. These are expressions of God's wrath, and the Bride of Christ is not subject to God's wrath.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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#47
Unless you fully understand the fulness of God's plan of salvation, you will not understand why it is "necessary". BTW it is not "one new man" but the whole body of believers -- the Body of Christ -- the Church.

God's ultimate plan for every sinner who is saved by grace is to make that person exactly like Christ -- perfect in spirit, soul, and body, free from the taint of sin, the guilt of sin, the presence of sin, the corruption of sin, the corruption of death, and the corruption of the old Adamic nature. Therefore God has planned the Resurrection-Rapture of the saints.

As to the catching up before the Tribulation, it is necessary that the Bride of Christ be removed from the earth -- along with the Holy Spirit -- BEFORE God allows the Antichrist and Satan to take full control of the earth for 3 1/2 years. During that time there will be Tribulation, and after that time there will be Great Tribulation. These are expressions of God's wrath, and the Bride of Christ is not subject to God's wrath.

Israel was not subject to God's wrath on Egypt. They were protected by the blood of the PASSOVER lamb. (get it? Passover?)

Psalm 91:7-8

A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.
8 You will only observe with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked.

There is no requirement for God to remove his people in order to protect them as you believe MUST be the case.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#48
"Bible-believing Christians are well aware that there is intense hatred for the Bible doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. There are probably hundreds of articles and sermons (from those who claim to be Christians) attacking this truth, even though it is clearly revealed in the Bible."

This from the OP. I am not going to get into all the verses why the Pre-Trib Rapture is wrong. In fact, the word "rapture" appears no where in the original Greek, or in modern English. (Do not get me started on harpazio, which is not even close to the word rapture!). So, this whole thread doesn't have a leg to stand on!

If you want to stand around all day and discuss stuff and nonsense, made up conflations, or putting together verses or pulling them apart to prove a wrong end times scenario, go for it.

But the minute you start saying someone who doesn't agree with you, WHO BELIEVES THE BIBLE, is not a Bible believing Christian and the clear implication that anyone who doesn't agree with your guess as to end times, then I will object.

For the record, I am amillennial. And, as others have pointed out, Jesus is coming back ONCE. In other words, a second time for the judgment. Jesus is not doing anything in secret when he returns. Secret just smacks of gnosticism and secret knowledge, secret returns, and some Christians who have served God with all their hearts being sent to hell.

In seminary, I had professors who were pre-trib Rapture people. Historical premillennialism. I did a lot of research and asked a lot of questions. I had other professors who were amillennial. No one win as pointing fingers and saying either camp was not saved, or would not be there, when Jesus returned. That is how educated people deal with eschatology.

Faith in Jesus is the only thing that saves! Not end times views! Period!
 

Bicycleman

Junior Member
Dec 21, 2017
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#49
Excellent post. You spell it out for everyone, and make these passages quite clear, and they are hard to understand if you don't understand what is going on or the message.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#50
Finally! Someone who believes differently than me who I KNOW I can ask for verses and I'll darn well get them! :)
dcon, what are the verses that convince you that it must be ONLY one coming.

Because it states in Revelation...

Is <---Present TENSE when Revelation written
WAS <-Past TENSE
IS TO COME <---Future tense when Revelation written

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The coming of the Lord<---The word Coming is Parousia and = Body Presence
His coming is VISIBLE just like lightning which cracks in the ease and shines unto the west
His coming is visible just like you know a dead deer is in the ditch due to the buzzards
The SAVED disciples will SEE him come with clouds and great power/glory
The LOST religious will see him come with the clouds in Great POWER and GREAT GLORY
EVERY KINDRED, TRIBE and EYE will see HIM COME with clouds in great POWER and GREAT Glory

It is as simple as...HE comes in the clouds with GREAT POWER AND GLORY at the 7th trump, resurrects the saved, changes the alive saved we are caught up together and rewarded while he pours out his wrath on the unbelieving world

Regardless of those who push wrath at the 6th seal because the LOST attempting to HIDE while saying the wrath is here, the announcement is made IN HEAVEN before the THRONE of GOD that GOD'S wrath HAS arrived at the 7th TRUMP of REVELATION

It is a major error to make the GREAT TRIBULATION -->MEGA THILIPSIS and the WRATH ORGE of GOD one and the same event....

ONE coming....NOT TWO.........
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#51
Because it states in Revelation...

Is <---Present TENSE when Revelation written
WAS <-Past TENSE
IS TO COME <---Future tense when Revelation written

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The coming of the Lord<---The word Coming is Parousia and = Body Presence
His coming is VISIBLE just like lightning which cracks in the ease and shines unto the west
His coming is visible just like you know a dead deer is in the ditch due to the buzzards
The SAVED disciples will SEE him come with clouds and great power/glory
The LOST religious will see him come with the clouds in Great POWER and GREAT GLORY
EVERY KINDRED, TRIBE and EYE will see HIM COME with clouds in great POWER and GREAT Glory

It is as simple as...HE comes in the clouds with GREAT POWER AND GLORY at the 7th trump, resurrects the saved, changes the alive saved we are caught up together and rewarded while he pours out his wrath on the unbelieving world

Regardless of those who push wrath at the 6th seal because the LOST attempting to HIDE while saying the wrath is here, the announcement is made IN HEAVEN before the THRONE of GOD that GOD'S wrath HAS arrived at the 7th TRUMP of REVELATION

It is a major error to make the GREAT TRIBULATION -->MEGA THILIPSIS and the WRATH ORGE of GOD one and the same event....

ONE coming....NOT TWO.........
So plain and simple, even I can understand.:D
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#52
Because it states in Revelation...

Is <---Present TENSE when Revelation written
WAS <-Past TENSE
IS TO COME <---Future tense when Revelation written
I am at my mothers house. Present tense.
I was at my mothers house last week. Past tense.
I'm going to my mothers house next week. Future tense.

Does this mean that when I go to my mothers house next week, it is the only time I will ever go to my mothers house? I might stop by there tomorrow AND next week. I told her next week, yes, but I might find a good sale on water and buy her a case and drop it off prior to the time I told her I was coming next week.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
821
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#53
The SAVED disciples will SEE him come with clouds and great power/glory
The LOST religious will see him come with the clouds in Great POWER and GREAT GLORY
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After trib - last trumpet - gather elect {in the twinkling of an eye}
My thought is that from the four winds might concern gathering on earth, and then of course a gathering of all in heaven is included right after that in the verse. I think some may come to God in the tribulation. I know it doesn't specifically state this, but I think so. They will refuse the mark and be beheaded. These then, would be the ones gathered from earth. The ones who were snatched away and kept from the time of testing/tribulation will be among those gathered from one end of heaven to the other.

I know you don't agree but just wanted to explain my thoughts on it. :)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#54
I am at my mothers house. Present tense.
I was at my mothers house last week. Past tense.
I'm going to my mothers house next week. Future tense.

Does this mean that when I go to my mothers house next week, it is the only time I will ever go to my mothers house? I might stop by there tomorrow AND next week. I told her next week, yes, but I might find a good sale on water and buy her a case and drop it off prior to the time I told her I was coming next week.
God is precise in the use of words.....look it up in the Greek....there is but one coming (BODY PRESENCE OF CHRIST)

AND IS TO COME is not I'm going.........
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#55
My thought is that from the four winds might concern gathering on earth, and then of course a gathering of all in heaven is included right after that in the verse. I think some may come to God in the tribulation. I know it doesn't specifically state this, but I think so. They will refuse the mark and be beheaded. These then, would be the ones gathered from earth. The ones who were snatched away and kept from the time of testing/tribulation will be among those gathered from one end of heaven to the other.

I know you don't agree but just wanted to explain my thoughts on it. :)
Gathered from the uttermost parts of the earth, Gathered from the one end of heaven to the other <---these two cover ALL the alive and dead in Christ......THOSE alive on the earth and those in heaven who are brought back with Christ
 

vic1980

Senior Member
Apr 25, 2013
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#57
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him , 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Mark 13:24-27

The Return of the Son of Man​


24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Thee main focus on pre tribulation doctrine is the land of Israel , at the end times . So why are the angels of the LORD gathering His elect from the four winds , from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


I believe it to be a wise decision , to stay with the plan that Christ already has given , not only to His Disciples but for us at this present moment.

Matthew 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

I clearly can agree with the Disciples of Christ on this.​


Shalom
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#58
Gathered from the uttermost parts of the earth, Gathered from the one end of heaven to the other <---these two cover ALL the alive and dead in Christ......THOSE alive on the earth and those in heaven who are brought back with Christ
Sounds good but is not supported by the Scriptures specific to the Rapture.

So let's contrast what is in Matthew 24 with what is in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15.

1. The timing -- the Rapture is BEFORE the second coming for the simple reason that the Marriage of the Lamb (which requires all the saints to be present in Heaven) is before the second coming. See Rev 19. The elect are gathered from the four winds AFTER the second coming of Christ (who is surrounded by His saints and angels).

2. Who is involved -- At the Rapture Christ ALONE comes with the souls and spirits of those who died in Christ for their resurrection, and gives a shout to summon those who are alive at that time to come to Heaven. After the second coming, Christ send His angels to gather the elect to Israel.

3. The purpose -- the Resurrection-Rapture is for the perfection and glorification of the saints BEFORE the second coming, whereas the gathering of the believing Jewish remnant is for the establishment of a redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel on earth.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#59
This from the OP. I am not going to get into all the verses why the Pre-Trib Rapture is wrong. In fact, the word "rapture" appears no where in the original Greek, or in modern English. (Do not get me started on harpazio, which is not even close to the word rapture!). So, this whole thread doesn't have a leg to stand on!
When one says rapture, they are meaning: gathering together in the air, snatching away, or whatever word or words you use for harpazo.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#60
When one says rapture, they are meaning: gathering together in the air, snatching away, or whatever word or words you use for harpazo.
So, no snatching away, in the sense of taking them out of this world. It’s really bad to make a doctrine out of one verse, supported by a few other out of context verses.

If this so-called rapture was this important, it would be all over the Bible. Instead, it is awrongly transliterated word, some secrets, which is not the way God operates in the new covenant, and a bunch of speculation..

I sure would hate to base my salvation on such flimsy evidence. Because, the OP was clear that true Christians all believe in a specific kind of rapture, when the word isn’t even in the Bible!

Bizarre, if you ask me!