Why the Adversary HATES the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection-Rapture

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tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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#61
So, no snatching away, in the sense of taking them out of this world. It’s really bad to make a doctrine out of one verse, supported by a few other out of context verses.

If this so-called rapture was this important, it would be all over the Bible. Instead, it is awrongly transliterated word, some secrets, which is not the way God operates in the new covenant, and a bunch of speculation..

I sure would hate to base my salvation on such flimsy evidence. Because, the OP was clear that true Christians all believe in a specific kind of rapture, when the word isn’t even in the Bible!

Bizarre, if you ask me!
The trouble is its not just one particular doctrine ie the timing of the rapture. Thats the tip of the Iceberg. Its a whole system
of false teachings. The foundation being that there is a separate plan of salvation for Jews and Gentiles.

The system is very similar to that used by the Jehovah Witnesses. You conceive an idea then hunt round for texts to 'prove'
that the idea is biblical and that you possess the truth. There is a specific term used for this method but I cant remember it
at present. If you delve into the history of these teaching you will find that those who first put them forward were cultist of
one form or another.

Some Pre Tribbers claim that the didnt read any anything other than the Bible when they came to believe in these doctrines.
as if thats a guarantee of authenticity. Even the Devil can use scripture to delude people. We should ask why they alone have
this amazing revelation and yet thousands of others throughout history haven't
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#62
So, this whole thread doesn't have a leg to stand on!
Really? Why don't you explain to everyone exactly what is the significance of John 14:1-3 and 1 John 3:1-3 for starters. Just the plain meaning without any digressions, and how these two passages tie together.

I have provide fifteen passages of Scripture which are all connected, and to simply harp on the absence of the word "rapture" is quite lame. That's like saying that "Trinity" is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
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#63
I like those left behind books....just sayin.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#64
Some Pre Tribbers claim that the didnt read any anything other than the Bible when they came to believe in these doctrines. as if thats a guarantee of authenticity. Even the Devil can use scripture to delude people. We should ask why they alone have this amazing revelation and yet thousands of others throughout history haven't
The Scoffield Bible has led a lot of people astray.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#65
So, no snatching away, in the sense of taking them out of this world.
I understand the word harpazo (or harpazio if your spelling is the correct one) to have a meaning of snatching one by the hair of their head to lift them up and out of danger, such as a mother might do if her child was about to...step on a poisonous snake..

It’s really bad to make a doctrine out of one verse, supported by a few other out of context verses.
I think it's bad to say one is making a doctrine out of one verse when they show many other verses that support their belief, such as:

1. Pray that you will be counted worthy to escape the time of testing coming on the whole world to test its people.

2. The verses about how God removes the righteous before His wrath in the stories of Lot and Noah.

I could list more but my point is made that many intelligent and godly men believe in our harpazo before the tribulation. You can say you think all of this is taken out of context. You can say you think I do not understand scripture one iota. But you cannot say I am making doctrine based on one scripture without more witnesses. In fact, when a woman gives her understanding of scripture and endtimes events, it is a bit rude and haughty to say she is "making doctrine." She is giving her view and understanding of what she has read. You can say you disagree with it and list the reasons why, but then you should not be accused either of "making doctrine out of one verse" when you are sharing your understanding and showing the scriptures that bring you to that understanding.

I sure would hate to base my salvation on such flimsy evidence. Because, the OP was clear that true Christians all believe in a specific kind of rapture, when the word isn’t even in the Bible!
You are an extremely intelligent woman. I know this because you are my friend and I have talked to you a lot over the course of a few years. If you have taken the time to read the thread, you can see, with that intelligence, that I have vociferously stated that I think it is WRONG to make endtime views a salvational issue. In fact, I will go even further and will say that it is a twisting of the gospel to make endtime views a salvational matter. As for saying to me, once again, in response to my post, that rapture isn't a word in the bible, I will once again say that when I say rapture (and when many others say rapture, but maybe not all), I mean whatever word/words one uses in English to convey the meaning of the word harpazo, whether it be any of the following: our gathering together in the air to meet the Lord, our snatching away, our keeping from the time of wrath, our being removed from the time of Gods' wrath, etc.

Bizarre, if you ask me!
I'm fine with you thinking my view based on my reading of scripture is bizarre to you. :)
 
Oct 31, 2015
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#66
.

I.

8. “When Christ, who is our life, shall appear”
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth...When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.(Col 3:1,4)

9. “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout”
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [dead], that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep [died] in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep [dead]. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them [raptured] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess 4:13-18) [Note: The Lord comes “in the air” momentarily, not to the earth as some assume]

10. “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation”
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. (1 Thess 5:9-11)

11. “Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light”
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: (2 Tim 1:9,10)

12. “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing”
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:13,14)

13. “Shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation”
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Heb 9:28)

14. “Salvation ready to be revealed in the last time”
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Pet 1:3-5)

15. “When he shall appear, we shall be like him”
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3)
The resurrection and rapture are a central part of our faith.


There are three district things that occur at His coming.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


  1. The first thing we see from the scriptures, that happens at His coming is: The dead in Christ will rise.

  • that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
  • And the dead in Christ will rise first.

2. The next thing we see happen, is the rapture of those who are alive and remain.
  • that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
  • Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#67
The two phase of the second coming will be the rapture and the second presence on earth of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to restore his kingdom to Israel.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#68
The resurrection and rapture are a central part of our faith.


There are three district things that occur at His coming.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


  1. The first thing we see from the scriptures, that happens at His coming is: The dead in Christ will rise.

  • that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
  • And the dead in Christ will rise first.

2. The next thing we see happen, is the rapture of those who are alive and remain.
  • that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
  • Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
These are actually the two events that will occur during the rapture. First, the ressurectionof the dead in Christ and they those that are alive will be given a glorified body and both will be snatch in the air called rapture. The event is instateneous and it will be immenent.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#69
The Scoffield Bible has led a lot of people astray.
Since you did not even spell Scofield correctly you are probably simply repeating what you may have read attacking the Scofield Reference Bible. As a matter of fact, I have first-hand knowledge that it is AN EXCELLENT BIBLE. It does not lead anyone astray, although one could disagree with some of the notes.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#70
Since you did not even spell Scofield correctly you are probably simply repeating what you may have read attacking the Scofield Reference Bible. As a matter of fact, I have first-hand knowledge that it is AN EXCELLENT BIBLE. It does not lead anyone astray, although one could disagree with some of the notes.
Yep, i have one old scofield reference and one new scofield given to me by missionaries to france. Excellent notes
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#71
Since you did not even spell Scofield correctly you are probably simply repeating what you may have read attacking the Scofield Reference Bible. As a matter of fact, I have first-hand knowledge that it is AN EXCELLENT BIBLE. It does not lead anyone astray, although one could disagree with some of the notes.
That was my first bible, which unfortunately someone I trusted recommended. I know firsthand how it confused my understanding of eschatology.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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#72
These are actually the two events that will occur during the rapture. First, the ressurectionof the dead in Christ and they those that are alive will be given a glorified body and both will be snatch in the air called rapture. The event is instateneous and it will be immenent.

The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.


  • we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17




JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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#73
I. THE RESURRECTION-RAPTURE IS SOLIDLY PRESENTED IN SCRIPTURE

1. “All that are in the graves shall hear his voice...unto the resurrection of life”
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28,29)

2. “I will come again and receive you unto myself”
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)

3. “There shall be a resurrection of the dead... of the just”
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. (Acts 24:14,15)

4. “The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ...in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ”
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:7,8)

5. “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed”
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [Resurrection], and we shall be changed [Rapture]. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Cor 15:51-54)

6. “That he might present it to himself a glorious church”
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:26,27)

7. “Who shall change our vile body... like unto his glorious body”
For our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Phil 3:20,21)

  • the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.



The third thing that occurs at His coming is the destruction of the antichrist.


8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12




JPT
 
Mar 6, 2018
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#74
The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.


  • we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17




JPT
Matthew 24:29-30

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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#75
This passage has caused some confusion because the modern versions say "day of the Lord" (pertaining the Great Tribulation) and the traditional versions say "day of Christ" (pertaining to the Rapture) according to their Greek texts. However, let's go with your translation and see the sequence of events.

The Day of the Lord is His coming, to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture.

This Day will not come as a thief in the night for the Church, but for the wicked.


  • But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.


  • For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
  • For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:4



JPT
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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#76
As to the catching up before the Tribulation, it is necessary that the Bride of Christ be removed from the earth -- along with the Holy Spirit -- BEFORE God allows the Antichrist and Satan to take full control of the earth for 3 1/2 years.
1 CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be changed.

Most Rapturist claim that at the 1Cor15 event {that they call the rapture} they are changed, meet the Lord in the air and its of to heaven. They also claim this happens BEFORE the tribulation period. Problem is, the beast appears during the tribulation and those who are in this resurrection {1Cor15} will have confronted the beast

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to this resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. The FIRST resurrection. So if those who are in this resurrection had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.
 
Mar 6, 2018
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#77
Matthew 25:1-13 King James Version (KJV)

1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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#78
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon
will not give its light and the stars will fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens
will be shaken be shaken then will appear the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds
of heaven with power and great glory and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call
and they will gather his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:29 RSV


For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command . with the Archangels call and with the sound of the trumpet of
God
And the dead in Christ will rise first then we who are alive who are left shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
to meet the lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord

1 Thessalonians: 16-17 RSV

Repent therefore and turn again that your sins may be blotted out
that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord
and that he may send the Christ appointed for you Jesus whom
heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke
from the mouth of his holy Prophets from of old


Acts 3: 19-21 RSV

Scripture clearly states that Christ returns after the tribulation not before. Paul description of Christs return is very similar to
that Jesus used. Neither make any mention of a two stage secret return. Jesus makes it clear that his return happens after the tribulation not before it.

In the KJV translation of Acts 3: 19-21 it reads that Jesus will remain in heaven until the consummation of all things. All things cant
be consummated until the tribulation period is finished so the notion of Jesus making a secret visit to collect the church taking them
back to heaven for seven years then coming back again goes against the plain teaching of scripture
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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#79
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14,15)

JUDE 1 [14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, THE LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS,[15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints

DEUT.33 [1] And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.[2] And he said, THE LORD CAME FROM SINAI, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and HE CAME WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.[3] Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.[4] Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob.

So if the “ten thousands of saints” in Jude are only those that were raptured, who are the “ten thousands of saints” in Deuteronomy that were coming round the mountain before the death of Moses {long before your rapture}, and why werent they allowed to cometh?
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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#80
Sounds good but is not supported by the Scriptures specific to the Rapture.

So let's contrast what is in Matthew 24 with what is in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15.
The two set of scriptures below are the same exact event. There is only one Second Coming (The Day of the Lord) and there is no rapture (as preached). When Jesus meets us in the air you will find no where in scripture that He brings us to heaven. What you do find in scripture is that He brings us to the 1000yr period of rest.

1 Thessalonians 4 and 5
4:15 - coming (Parousia)
4:17 - clouds
4:16 - shout, voice trump
4:17 - caught up together
5:1 – times and seasons
5:2 - a thief
5:3 - sudden destruction
5:6 - watch

Matthew 24
24:27 - coming (Parousia)
24:30 - clouds
24:31 - sound of a trumpet
24:31 - gather together
24:36 - day or hour
24:43 - a thief
24:39 - took them in a flood
24:42 - watch

Do you think all these events will happen twice? No way. Both sets of scripture are describing a single event.