Why the king james?
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You wouldn't deny these Scripture examples would you:
Joshua 22:2, "And said unto them, Ye have kept all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you:"
1 Kings 11:34, "Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:"
2 Kings 18:6, "For he clave to the Lord, and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which the Lord commanded Moses."
Luke 1:5-6, "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
Even Paul said he was righteous according to the law because he was blameless. Philippians 3:6, "Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."
Romans 10:3-4, "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
A person could attain their own righteousness by keeping the law, but it could not give eternal salvation, only the righteousness that comes from God which is Jesus Christ.
Joshua 22:2, "And said unto them, Ye have kept all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you:"
1 Kings 11:34, "Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:"
2 Kings 18:6, "For he clave to the Lord, and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which the Lord commanded Moses."
Luke 1:5-6, "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
Even Paul said he was righteous according to the law because he was blameless. Philippians 3:6, "Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."
Romans 10:3-4, "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
A person could attain their own righteousness by keeping the law, but it could not give eternal salvation, only the righteousness that comes from God which is Jesus Christ.
E
I believe what the bible says,
Jesus is the only man who ever walked the earth who never sinned..
We have the Holy Spirit, and can not keep the law. You want me to believe the OT believers, who did not get the holy spirit, could do it?
interpret those passages in context. Thats your problem, You put to much faith in an interpretation.. And you are fooled by it.
You were right earlier, The OT saints did not go right to heaven (although they went to paradise) The reason is because their sin had not yet been redeemed, they had to wait in Christ. those animal sacrifices never removed their sin, because the blood of bulls and goats could never remove sin.
I agree with every word you said. Remember, the law provided a sacrificial system because the OT saints could not obey all the commandments perfectly. Following the whole law(righteousness according to the law) would allow them to be in Abraham's bosom, paradise, when they slept.
If you're not in agreement with the Scriptures I provided, please give us your interpretation of them. What you're failing to acknowledge is the difference in the righteousness of the law and God's righteousness through Jesus Christ.
If you're not in agreement with the Scriptures I provided, please give us your interpretation of them. What you're failing to acknowledge is the difference in the righteousness of the law and God's righteousness through Jesus Christ.
E
Nope that is not true, if that was true, people would be saved whether they had faith in God or not. based on fact high priest gave sacrifice once a year, not to mention, All Israel would be saved, because those sacrifices were for everyone, not just some..
and second, when there was no temple. no one could be saved, meaning Daniel himself is in hell today. because no sacrifice could be given.
If the sacrifice could make someone right, Then Jesus did not have to come..
and second, when there was no temple. no one could be saved, meaning Daniel himself is in hell today. because no sacrifice could be given.
If the sacrifice could make someone right, Then Jesus did not have to come..
E
You do not understand righteousness of the law.. It is given by moses, and repeated by paul.
Deuteronomy 27:26
[SUP]26 [/SUP]‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’
God demanded perfect obedience, That is what Moses wrote, and told the people and made them confirm in a covenant.
Paul re-iterated this in Gal 3.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.
So did Moses and Paul lie?
If not. Then you tell me how to interpret those passages to make them agree with the rest of scripture..
Deuteronomy 27:26
[SUP]26 [/SUP]‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’
God demanded perfect obedience, That is what Moses wrote, and told the people and made them confirm in a covenant.
Paul re-iterated this in Gal 3.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.
So did Moses and Paul lie?
If not. Then you tell me how to interpret those passages to make them agree with the rest of scripture..
God did demand obedience to the whole law which included the sacrificial system. Paul is writing in a new dispensation. Justification is through the faith of Christ, therefore he uses the OT verse "the just shall live by faith" removing the word his. Habakkuk 2:4, "...the just shall live by his faith." Now, we are justified by the faith of Christ and not by the works of the law, a man's individual faith.
How did Adam make it to Heaven? Noah? Abraham? Isaac? Joseph? Whatever the revelation that God gave them in their time, they were to be found faithfully obeying. But even then, they would be under the curse until the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Without the resurrection, they would remain asleep in Abraham's bosom.
How did Adam make it to Heaven? Noah? Abraham? Isaac? Joseph? Whatever the revelation that God gave them in their time, they were to be found faithfully obeying. But even then, they would be under the curse until the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Without the resurrection, they would remain asleep in Abraham's bosom.
E
You did not read a thing I posted did you? Do you go back into the OT to study what I said to even see if it was possibly true? Or did you just ignore it?
When moses made that proclamation. the sacrificial part of the law not yet even given.
And again, if people could obey the law. THEN NO SACRIFICE WOULD NEED TO BE GIVEN.
Paul said clearly NO ONE WAS EVER SAVED BY THE LAW.
Men and women have been justified by faith since the moment Adam and Eve sinned..
All paul was doing was trying to prove to people that were trying to add the law that no one was ever saved by the law (hebrews says the exact same thing) so why would people go back to it?
Faith in God, and his provision.. Just like you and I. They only difference is we know who it is we have faiht in, and what he did, they did not, They just trusted that God would make a way.
Abraham believed (had faith) God and God credited to him righteousness..
hmm. So Abraham, the great sinner he was.. Wa ssaved by being Good?
Think again, You have been taught a false teaching about how people in the OT are saved.
Let me guess, In the tribulation period. you believe Israel will be saved by law again right?
ps. Why did you ignore what I said about the times the temple was in ruins?? How was Daniel saved, no one could do a sacrifice, and he did not do them. so he disobeyed the law..
When moses made that proclamation. the sacrificial part of the law not yet even given.
And again, if people could obey the law. THEN NO SACRIFICE WOULD NEED TO BE GIVEN.
Paul said clearly NO ONE WAS EVER SAVED BY THE LAW.
Men and women have been justified by faith since the moment Adam and Eve sinned..
All paul was doing was trying to prove to people that were trying to add the law that no one was ever saved by the law (hebrews says the exact same thing) so why would people go back to it?
Faith in God, and his provision.. Just like you and I. They only difference is we know who it is we have faiht in, and what he did, they did not, They just trusted that God would make a way.
Abraham believed (had faith) God and God credited to him righteousness..
hmm. So Abraham, the great sinner he was.. Wa ssaved by being Good?
Think again, You have been taught a false teaching about how people in the OT are saved.
Let me guess, In the tribulation period. you believe Israel will be saved by law again right?
ps. Why did you ignore what I said about the times the temple was in ruins?? How was Daniel saved, no one could do a sacrifice, and he did not do them. so he disobeyed the law..
Deuteronomy 27:10, "Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the Lord thy God, and do his commandments and his statutes, which I command thee this day."
1 Kings 11:34, "Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:"
Is this verse true? Did David keep the commandments and satutes? Yes, but this did not bring God's righteousness on him. This was the righteousness under the law which could not save a man eternally. Even if a man obeyed all the commandments, he would still be under the curse because of Adam. In Adam all die. In Christ all shall be made alive.
1 Kings 11:34, "Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:"
Is this verse true? Did David keep the commandments and satutes? Yes, but this did not bring God's righteousness on him. This was the righteousness under the law which could not save a man eternally. Even if a man obeyed all the commandments, he would still be under the curse because of Adam. In Adam all die. In Christ all shall be made alive.
Interestingly without blame does not mean they did not stumble. If you stumbled there was sacrifices to wash you clean again. I would argue we can also walk in righteousness, as we have Christ to forgive us when we stumble by the cross.
We know for instance Moses failed, and so did Aaron, but sacrifices were made to put them right before the Lord.
It is clear to me that though they had only the form of forgiveness and we have the fulfillment, they walked like we do.
The difference maybe that Jesus brought the Kingdom of Heaven to earth with the anointing of the Holy Spirit and love being set free in the believers heart.
EG hates this idea and denies you can walk in righteousness, because he holds to inability to walk blamelessly ever, until we see Jesus. There is a problem with the apostles when they followed Jesus. How could they we walking in sin and Jesus not correct them. There is no record of this, so I assume they walked in righteousness then, except Judas at the end.
We know for instance Moses failed, and so did Aaron, but sacrifices were made to put them right before the Lord.
It is clear to me that though they had only the form of forgiveness and we have the fulfillment, they walked like we do.
The difference maybe that Jesus brought the Kingdom of Heaven to earth with the anointing of the Holy Spirit and love being set free in the believers heart.
EG hates this idea and denies you can walk in righteousness, because he holds to inability to walk blamelessly ever, until we see Jesus. There is a problem with the apostles when they followed Jesus. How could they we walking in sin and Jesus not correct them. There is no record of this, so I assume they walked in righteousness then, except Judas at the end.
E
David was an adulterer and murderer. You want me to believe he kept the law? and did what moses commanded in duet 27: 27??
Duet 27: [SUP]26 [/SUP]‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’
David broke two laws. So he did not confirm the covenant, by observing every law..Which means he was under a curse.. No he did not. But yes the verse is true, David lived a life of obedience to God.. He was not perfect. Yet he was considered a man ofter Gods own heart..
He was saved, Because of the future messiah,, and his faith in Gods provision.. Not because he obeyed the law.
If a man could obey every precept of the law. He would save himself.. Man can not obey every precept though, Thats the problem..
David was a sinner, He needed saved, The law could never save him.. Any more than Abraham, who also committed adultry, was saved by any law. They both were guilty..
You still did not answer how a person was saved with no temple.. Like Daniel.. Why is this??
Duet 27: [SUP]26 [/SUP]‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’
David broke two laws. So he did not confirm the covenant, by observing every law..Which means he was under a curse.. No he did not. But yes the verse is true, David lived a life of obedience to God.. He was not perfect. Yet he was considered a man ofter Gods own heart..
He was saved, Because of the future messiah,, and his faith in Gods provision.. Not because he obeyed the law.
If a man could obey every precept of the law. He would save himself.. Man can not obey every precept though, Thats the problem..
David was a sinner, He needed saved, The law could never save him.. Any more than Abraham, who also committed adultry, was saved by any law. They both were guilty..
You still did not answer how a person was saved with no temple.. Like Daniel.. Why is this??
E
Your ignoring your own argument, and in fact you just destroyed your own argument!
if this was true, then all men and women of all ages could not be saved apart from Christ. And they all would have to have faith in that redeemer (whether they knew who he was (nt) or did not (OT)
which blows your whole theory that people under law were saved by the law.. and not saved as we are..
if this was true, then all men and women of all ages could not be saved apart from Christ. And they all would have to have faith in that redeemer (whether they knew who he was (nt) or did not (OT)
which blows your whole theory that people under law were saved by the law.. and not saved as we are..
I have never said that the OT saints were saved by following the law. You are mistaken. The OT saints were justified to be placed in Abraham's bosom by obeying the word of God in which was given them. This is not salvation as we know it now. They were not sealed by the Holy Spirit. They were not new creatures in Christ. They were not absent from the body, present with the Lord. They were not part of the bride of Christ. They were not born again. They were not spiritually circumcised. They were, however, safe in Abraham's bosom and not in hell fire.
A side note John146.
I have found EG impossible to talk to, because he does not actually talk, he just comes out with his ideas, and refuses to discuss things from different points of view. For some insane reason others from his camp think this is a good approach, but I just find it insane. I was wondering what your impression is?
I ask because I want some confirmation I am not going crazy, it is something I did not expect here, and that is saying something considering some people I have come across.
I have found EG impossible to talk to, because he does not actually talk, he just comes out with his ideas, and refuses to discuss things from different points of view. For some insane reason others from his camp think this is a good approach, but I just find it insane. I was wondering what your impression is?
I ask because I want some confirmation I am not going crazy, it is something I did not expect here, and that is saying something considering some people I have come across.
E
lol.. Thanks, This made my day! I love it.
Nah, your not going crazy, EG is confronting you and will continue to confront you until you at least show you have an inkling of what he believes..
He has done it since he got here.. Yeah, I know, it gets frustrating. But hey,, Many people are saved today because people kept on them, and did not let them stay stuck in their religion.
Originally Posted by Agricola
It is ridiculous that discussion has to go to these lengths, if you are having to unravel things this far, then its clearly flawed. King James is not the final authority perfect Bible which the King James Only cult claim./quote]
So the KJV is not God's perfect inerrant word... then where is it?
So the KJV is not God's perfect inerrant word... then where is it?
OF course the Old testament was already written in Hebrew and kept by the Jews, the New Testment texts were copied and spread through Europe, the Bible was complied and we have several of those dating back to the original compilation, all which agree with each other, apart from one or two slight minor differences.
It is the message that is important, not hanging on to every exact letter, this thinking is flawed, as surely Gods perfect word would be in the language it was written by the authors, not 17th Century English.
Psalm 12:6 has been taken out of context by a few deluded fools who wanted to raise the King James version to a lofty position, The Refined 7 times is just simply stating how pure Gods word is, not some fanciful wishful thinking prophecy that the King James is the perfect Bible, it is totally illogical to assume that King James version is perfect how God wanted it to be.
I guess that annoys the likes of Paul, "Hey God, you think my inspired writings are not perfect, "
"Sorry Paul, I think 17th Century English is the perfect form of communication, sorry I did not give that language to the Jews to start with. "
How do we know this prophecy does not apply to a future Bible in Chinese? Why not German they had plenty of versions of the Bible, actully there were more than 7 versions and writing of the Bible before King James, so that is flawed anyway, but lets not let all that get in away of a cult who thinks they are on to something good and some special insight and knowledge we all don't have
Why you still going on about OT conversion to prove King James.... .Seriously that is messed up if you need to do that, just prove the King James is perfect version of all time.
That is simple...it's obvious from the context that the Lord is talking about protecting people from evil doers..the Hebrew word for "him" is relating to the Lord keeping the godly and faithful man safe through His word..
Context is always king
Psalm 12:1-8 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Help, LORD, for the godly man ceases to be, For the faithful disappear from among the sons of men.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] They speak falsehood to one another; With flattering lips and with a double heart they speak.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] May the LORD cut off all flattering lips, The tongue that speaks great things;
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who have said, "With our tongue we will prevail; Our lips are our own; who is lord over us?"
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "Because of the devastation of the afflicted, because of the groaning of the needy, Now I will arise," says the LORD; "I will set him in the safety for which he longs."
[SUP]6 [/SUP] The words of the LORD are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] You, O LORD, will keep them; You will preserve him from this generation forever.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] The wicked strut about on every side When vileness is exalted among the sons of men.
Context is always king
Psalm 12:1-8 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Help, LORD, for the godly man ceases to be, For the faithful disappear from among the sons of men.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] They speak falsehood to one another; With flattering lips and with a double heart they speak.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] May the LORD cut off all flattering lips, The tongue that speaks great things;
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who have said, "With our tongue we will prevail; Our lips are our own; who is lord over us?"
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "Because of the devastation of the afflicted, because of the groaning of the needy, Now I will arise," says the LORD; "I will set him in the safety for which he longs."
[SUP]6 [/SUP] The words of the LORD are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] You, O LORD, will keep them; You will preserve him from this generation forever.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] The wicked strut about on every side When vileness is exalted among the sons of men.