Why the "NT-only, grace-only" theology is off the mark

[WomanLovesTX]

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Jer 30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Jer 30:23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
Jer 30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.
Jer 31:1 At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel. Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
Jer 31:11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Danschance, to me and many others like me, we understand the mystery of why Christ had to die. We understand that we too must die and then we are raised up together with Christ in a newness of life. He gives us the Holy Spirit so that we may grow and mature in our faith.

Please, don't find fault with me because I understand I am an ingrafted Israelite, now free from the curse of "not being a people unto God" and am now God's people through the death, burial and resurrection of Yeshua/Jesus. There is no other way "back into the Kingdom". Do you understand what I am sharing with you? Without GRACE, we are all doomed by our adulterous sins, being divorced from God, and now finding He has made provision to travel back to our face to face relationship with Him through Him coming to earth (Immanual = God with us) and living the perfect sinless life, sacrificed as the Perfect and Spotless Lamb of God, and raised back to a NEW LIFE, so we are to be dead to our old selves as well. In baptism, we announce to all that we are dead, and buried with Christ and then brought back to life again. We (the good olive tree) has been brought back into the Kingdom of Israel and our "Husband" is to be Yeshua/Jesus.

Danschance, sorry for the bulk of scriptures, but I cannot take one verse (and determine it is full context) without the witness or testimony of other scriptures. When I find a scripture that has no companion scripture, I set it aside and pray about it. The Bible defines Bible terms. Paul is often hard to understand which of the 7 or is it 8 different kind of laws he speaks of, which careful examination of all the letter has to be read to make sure you are getting context of which one of the 7 or 8 laws he is discussing.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[p_rehbein]

QUOTE:

Here's the thing: The "Old Testament" is God's Word; The "New Testament" is about God's Word. One can be "saved" by believing in the Messiah (the "arm of YHWH"), but one cannot possibly understand God until one is firmly rooted in Torah.

END QUOTE


............no further comment necessary..............

 

[danschance]

Here's the thing: The "Old Testament" is God's Word; The "New Testament" is about God's Word. One can be "saved" by believing in the Messiah (the "arm of YHWH"), but one cannot possibly understand God until one is firmly rooted in Torah.

The New testament is not about God's word, it is God's word and about the New covenant. It introduces us to Christ and explains how Christians are to be. Romans 7:6 clearly states that the Mosaic law is not to be followed by the NT believer. I did not see a single verse of the wall of text you put up that disproved Romans 7:6. I showed you the plain verses that Paul is not an observant Jew.

I can only hope that the scales fall from your eyes so you can see the truth and the truth will set you free.

 

[danschance]

Paul was not a torah observant Jew and here is why:

20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I cor. 9:20-22

Paul states point blank he is not under the law.

 

[WomanLovesTX]

The New testament is not about God's word, it is God's word and about the New covenant. It introduces us to Christ and explains how Christians are to be. Romans 7:6 clearly states that the Mosaic law is not to be followed by the NT believer. I did not see a single verse of the wall of text you put up that disproved Romans 7:6. I showed you the plain verses that Paul is not an observant Jew.

I can only hope that the scales fall from your eyes so you can see the truth and the truth will set you free.

Ditto.

The New Testament is ABOUT GOD'S WORD.

John 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


The Old Testament is named Old by man, and not of GOD.

Deuteronomy 4:2 - Ye shall not add unto the Word which I command you, neither shall you diminish ought from it, that ye May keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 - What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Matthew 23:1-3 Then spake Jesus to the MULITUDE, AND TO HIS DISCIPLES, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: ALL THEREFORE WHATSOEVER THEY BID YOU OBSERVE, THAT OBSERVE AND DO.....

And the Gentiles were being persuaded by certain men that they had to be circumcised in order to be saved. When Paul and Barnabas who disputed these certain men, they went up to Jerusalem into the apostles and elders about this question. They concluded 5 (FIVE) rules. 1) abstain from pollution of idols, 2) and from fornication, 3) and from things strangled, 4) and from blood. The 5th is they would learn the Torah if they attended the synagogues on SUNDAY? No,no, so sorry, that is changing the s rupture!

Acts 15:21 - For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.

So not only did Yeshua/Jesus state we would learn from those who read Torah every Sabbath, but the Apostles and elders also came to the same conclusion.

But you Danschance, remember when you are pointing the finger at another, you have three of your own pointing at you.

 

[WomanLovesTX]

Paul was not a torah observant Jew and here is why:

20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I cor. 9:20-22

Paul states point blank he is not under the law.

Paul makes mention of many “laws.” In fact, he makes mention of at least seven.

1) The Law of God (Romans 3:31; 7:22-25; 8:7)

2) The Law of Sin (Romans 7:23-25)

3) The Law of Sin and Death (Romans 8:2)

4) The Law of the Spiritof Life (Romans 8:2)

5) The Law of Faith (Romans 3:27)

6) The Law of Righteousness (Romans 9:31)

7) The Law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21)


1 Corinthians 9:21
To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but
under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

1Co 9:21 (CJB) With those who live outside the framework of Torah, I put myself in the position of someone outside the Torah in order to win those outside the Torah — although I myself am not outside the framework of God's Torah but within the framework of Torah as upheld by the Messiah.

In a moment in which Paul is talking about how he puts himself in the shoes of others in an attempt to help them better understand, Paul states that he is not outside the law of God, but under the law of Christ. So, He is in the Law of God and Law of Christ at the same time...meaning what? They are the same thing.

Right here, Paul clarifies that the instructions our Messiah gave us are the same as the Law of God.

Yeshua/Jesus only followed the law of God, and he is to be the example that we follow, and we are to walk the same way that he walked.

Therefore, to follow the Law of Christ is the same as following the Law of God.

 

[WomanLovesTX]

Paul makes mention of many “laws.” In fact, he makes mention of at least seven.

1) The Law of God (Romans 3:31; 7:22-25; 8:7)

2) The Law of Sin (Romans 7:23-25)

3) The Law of Sin and Death (Romans 8:2)

4) The Law of the Spiritof Life (Romans 8:2)

5) The Law of Faith (Romans 3:27)

6) The Law of Righteousness (Romans 9:31)

7) The Law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21)

There is a process and order of how this sequence of laws are to play out in our lives in the faith...

The Law of God are our instructions from our Creator. Our flesh desires to not follow these instructions. This is defined as the Law of Sin. Sin leads to death. We have all sinned. We all deserved death. This is known as the Law of Sin and Death. While we are under the Law of Sin and Death, we are unknowingly in bondage and trapped in the promise of eternal death. The Spirit speaks truth to us, and points us to the everlasting life of the Word of God. In this, we realize that we are in bondage in the Law of Sin and Death. We realize that we must have faith in the Word of God by trusting and fully committing to the Word of God. This is a desire to follow the Word of God, characterized by a new desire that is contrary to the flesh that is against the Word of God. In this faith, we practice righteousness.

This righteousness is the same righteousness of our Messiah, that he walked out in the faith. This is known as the Law of Christ.

For more on this and other teachings, please visit us at 119 Ministries .

Shalom, and may Yahweh bless you in walking in the whole Word of God.

 

[p_rehbein]

Denying that The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not God's Word, is to deny Jesus Christ, and if you deny Jesus Christ, you deny God.

Jesus Himself said as much.................

The one valid point you have made so far is concerning the First Testament being called the Old Testament.........I do not like that name, but some folks don't understand when I refer to it as The First Testament...........that's the ONLY valid point you have made thus far in my opinion, but, hey, that's PROGRESS!

 

[danschance]

Paul makes mention of many “laws.” In fact, he makes mention of at least seven.

1) The Law of God (Romans 3:31; 7:22-25; 8:7)

2) The Law of Sin (Romans 7:23-25)

3) The Law of Sin and Death (Romans 8:2)

4) The Law of the Spiritof Life (Romans 8:2)

5) The Law of Faith (Romans 3:27)

6) The Law of Righteousness (Romans 9:31)

7) The Law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21)


1 Corinthians 9:21
To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but
under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

1Co 9:21 (CJB) With those who live outside the framework of Torah, I put myself in the position of someone outside the Torah in order to win those outside the Torah — although I myself am not outside the framework of God's Torah but within the framework of Torah as upheld by the Messiah.

In a moment in which Paul is talking about how he puts himself in the shoes of others in an attempt to help them better understand, Paul states that he is not outside the law of God, but under the law of Christ. So, He is in the Law of God and Law of Christ at the same time...meaning what? They are the same thing.

Right here, Paul clarifies that the instructions our Messiah gave us are the same as the Law of God.

Yeshua/Jesus only followed the law of God, and he is to be the example that we follow, and we are to walk the same way that he walked.

Therefore, to follow the Law of Christ is the same as following the Law of God.

Gentiles follow those laws as well and they do not make one an "Torah Observant" Christian. I have wrote many posts that Christians are to obey the laws of Christ, you now you wish to quote them to prove a point. Yet you ignore Romans 7:6 in doing so.

But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. Romans 7:6

You can't pick and choose your way thru the bible. One must accept it all or be damned but what they disregard.

 

[WomanLovesTX]

Gentiles follow those laws as well and they do not make one an "Torah Observant" Christian. I have wrote many posts that Christians are to obey the laws of Christ, you now you wish to quote them to prove a point. Yet you ignore Romans 7:6 in doing so.



You can't pick and choose your way thru the bible. One must accept it all or be damned but what they disregard.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-mark-post1375882.html?highlight=#post1375882

I answered. I guess what I replied was too much meat. Perhaps it would be best if we limited our discussions. Shalom

 

[john832]

Paul was not a torah observant Jew and here is why:


Paul states point blank he is not under the law.

Yep, just like right here...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

What he says is that he is not under the penalty of the Law. He is not under the death sentence for breaking it because through grace he has been forgiven for transgressions.

 

[john832]

You can't pick and choose your way thru the bible. One must accept it all or be damned but what they disregard.

I whole heartedly agree...

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[john832]

James shows us this...

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[cfultz3]

Ditto.

The New Testament is ABOUT GOD'S WORD.

It is not ABOUT God's Word, It IS God's Word. To say it is ABOUT God's Word is to imply that it is an extension of another Covenant, not a Covenant in and of itself. The WHOLE of Scripture IS God's word. We Christians just happen to be those with His LAST Message, seeing that the first Message did not work because of the weakness of the flesh.

 

[john832]

It is not ABOUT God's Word, It IS God's Word. To say it is ABOUT God's Word is to imply that it is an extension of another Covenant, not a Covenant in and of itself. The WHOLE of Scripture IS God's word. We Christians just happen to be those with His LAST Message, seeing that the first Message did not work because of the weakness of the flesh.

The New Testament is not a Covenant in itself. It is the explaination of a Covenant described in the Old Testament...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[cfultz3]

The New Testament is not a Covenant in itself. It is the explaination of a Covenant described in the Old Testament...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Are you sure of this claim? Are you sure Jer 31:33 does not say, "This shall be the covenant that I SHALL make...." Are you sure Jer 31:32 does not say, "Not according to the covenant that I MADE". Are you sure of your claim? Does Jesus not have His own House?

 

[john832]

Are you sure of this claim? Are you sure Jer 31:33 does not say, "This shall be the covenant that I SHALL make...." Are you sure Jer 31:32 does not say, "Not according to the covenant that I MADE". Are you sure of your claim? Does Jesus not have His own House?

Who was the God of the Old Testament who said this? Jesus Christ.

 

[cfultz3]

Who was the God of the Old Testament who said this? Jesus Christ.

It was the Word who said this. The Word became a Man named Jesus Christ. This Man brought in a Covenant which was not according to the covenant He, as the Word, made with them, but He, as Jesus Christ, brought in a different Covenant where the Law is not on tablets of stone but on the heart, where circumcision is not of the foreskin, but of the heart, where being lead is not by another man, but by the Man Himself.

The Word said that He will bring in a Covenant which is different, and as the Word incarnated, He certainly did. We now walk spiritually and not physically.

 

[CountryPeter]

Hi this is my first time in this forum, Im from New Zealand nice to meet you in this chat

 

[chubbena]

Paul was not a torah observant Jew and here is why:


Paul states point blank he is not under the law.

Paul's not under the law but he's a law observing Jew.
Let's listen to what he said:
Acts 24:14-15
....I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Acts 25:8
...I have done nothing wrong against the Jewish law or against the temple or against Caesar.