Women Pastors? Help me.

[Grace777x70]

I agree with some of what you have said.

However, Martin Luther tacked his 95 Theses against indulgences on the church at Wittenburg (a legend, or just an extension of his fight and his publishing this Theses?) in 1517. That makes it 500 years ago, not 1,100 years ago. Since this anniversary is going to be celebrated by Lutherans next year, an important mark in church history.

Plus, the Catholic church and the Lutheran Church in many areas, are reconciling. One of my mentors in chaplaincy had a father who was the head of the Missouri-Synod in India, and a mother who was the head of the Evangelical Lutherans in India, and they brokered a covenant with the RCC for reconcilation. Ironically, the Missouri-Synod is against women being pastors. This man said he would never ordain any woman - except his daughters. He came all the way from India twice to ordain his daughters at different times. Of course, they were Evangelical Lutheran!

History, people! It is so easy to google something before you post it!

You must have mis-read what I wrote as the "history" of 1,100 years was referring to the catholic church from it's inception to when Luther came out with his supposed "heresy" against the current church teachings of his time.

It can be easy to mis-interpret what is said sometimes in posts but I thank you for encouraging people to google things for themselves.

When I did google it - the source said that the catholic church structure as it was known and set up in Luther's time started most likely around the 2nd century so I gave the 1,100 years as a round figure but it was most likely longer than that when Luther came out with his 95 Theses in 1517.

I am glad that the man you mentioned from India came to ordain the "women". So it's a good sign sometimes when church traditions are broken...

I'm sure that brother from India is content knowing that he did a good thing.

 

[Magenta]

Yes, but what do you think it is? What did she do?

Strong's Concordance states that the general understanding of the meaning of this word was a Christian pastor or teacher. It can mean minister, servant, or deacon. When Paul wanted to denote servanthood as a holy characteristic of Christian life, he usually used the word doulos, the Greek word for bondslave. But when describing the function of another, he did not use this word. But the translators did. That's the fifteenth century translators hired by King James--not the first century apostle chosen by God.

Look at some other Scriptures where diakonos or a derivative of that word is translated ministry:

• The ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5)
• The ministry of the spirit (2 Cor. 3:7)
• The ministry of righteousness (2 Cor. 3:7)
• Addicted to the ministry of the saints (1 Cor. 16:15)
• Able ministers of the new covenant (2 Cor. 3:6)
• Civil authorities as ministers (Rom. 13:4)

Paul is a minister, Tychicus is a minister, Epaphras is a minister, and Timothy is a minister. Why not Phoebe? Only one reason. She was a woman. Who made her less? Not God. Not Jesus. Not Paul. Only man and his pride that has perpetuated womenless ministry. Priscilla and Phoebe show us about Paul, by David Fees

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by maxwel

What if I'm a pastor and I AM a man...
but I "identify" as a girl...
and I'm not a pretty girl...
just a really hairy, muscular, manly girl..
and I also identify as a 6 year old girl,
who probably shouldn't have a drivers license,
so I have trouble getting to my church to preach on sunday...
and I'm actually "gender fluid",
so sometimes I DO identify as a man,
but just not on Sundays when I'm preaching?

What then?

Then you should stop using narcotics

Lol....if he is on them then maybe he should increase the dosage of whatever he is on because "it ain't working" like it should.

 

[Depleted]

I was just thinking about this topic a bit more. Really, all women should be doing the counseling. Because a pastor counseling a woman has ruined more marriages than can be told. A man with a woman, a man with power, in fact, or at least looked up to and respected, will result in a woman who is easily swayed and easily seduced.

If 52% of evangelical pastors look at porn, I think it is safe to say that a man counseling a woman is a snare and a trap!

I knew a woman in seminary, who had been a social worker before she was taken on to do all the counseling in her church. This was a Southern Baptist Church, too! Very strict! But she was more qualified, and had really worked some miracles in marriages and helping turn people's lives around.

She also was one of the most gentle, kind and spirit led people I know. It was the Spirit of God working through her that made changes in people's lives and marriages! And that, in the end, is all that matters!

This keeps going back to "pastor" in my mind. The caregiver to the sheep. And it has a lot to do with the size of the church too. Have a church with 500+ people, and you can have enough folks participating, that the pastor cares by teaching the flock what's needed for them without having a clue how to counsel one-on-one. Or, have a pastor who is a counselor that can give the one-on-one without being able to teach. But, then there are the small churches with 50-100 people, and they really can't afford both a teacher and a counselor. Make it 150-500 people and they can't afford both, nor can the pastor teach, counsel, visit the sick and prisoners, and minister to families in need.

I really do agree some men royally stink at counseling. (My husband's first marriage sure didn't weather the trials going on inside the marriage plus the counsel of a pastor who was previously a liquor salesmen, right before become the pastor when the one before him had to step down.) But, on the other hand, I just told I was no good as a woman either. Most people stink at counseling. Just an obvious fact.

I would think folks would understand the duties of a pastor, but even on here many think a pastor is a one-size-fits-all job description. It's good if a church can afford both a counselor and a teacher, but what about those that can't, and don't think out what they need in a pastor? (Really? A liquor salesman!) How does that fit into the bylaws of a denomination? How do you set up a standard to decide which gender when? And is it really about gender, if it's been established the ability to counsel isn't given by gender?

And we never got into the protective nature of a pastor. (Mantles.)

 

[Depleted]

Paul called Priscilla a deacon. I wonder how muscular she was

I don't think overseer/deacon is a pastor. Stephen was a deacon, but not a pastor.

(I know. Not Trofimus's or your point, but I really do think many are arguing the one by trying to prove out another.)

 

[trofimus]

Strong's Concordance states that the general understanding of the meaning of this word was a Christian pastor or teacher. It can mean minister, servant, or deacon. When Paul wanted to denote servanthood as a holy characteristic of Christian life, he usually used the word doulos, the Greek word for bondslave. But when describing the function of another, he did not use this word. But the translators did. That's the fifteenth century translators hired by King James--not the first century apostle chosen by God.

Look at some other Scriptures where diakonos or a derivative of that word is translated ministry:

• The ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5)
• The ministry of the spirit (2 Cor. 3:7)
• The ministry of righteousness (2 Cor. 3:7)
• Addicted to the ministry of the saints (1 Cor. 16:15)
• Able ministers of the new covenant (2 Cor. 3:6)
• Civil authorities as ministers (Rom. 13:4)

Paul is a minister, Tychicus is a minister, Epaphras is a minister, and Timothy is a minister. Why not Phoebe? Only one reason. She was a woman. Who made her less? Not God. Not Jesus. Not Paul. Only man and his pride that has perpetuated womenless ministry. [FONT=&]Priscilla and Phoebe show us about Paul, by David Fees[/FONT]

I looked up just the one with Tychicus:

"Tychicus, the dear brother and faithful servant in the Lord..." Eph 6:21

Well, it does not seem to be a title for the church preacher/pastor or something like that. It seems to me that he is just serving generally to the spreading of gospel, to Paul on his journeys etc.

BTW, Tychicus was a brother of Trophimus

Why does Strong think it must be a leading church position?

 

[Depleted]

My goodness John! I went through the verses you posted from 1 Tim. 3:1-7, 11-12 in great detail showing how King James and his translators changed the Greek meaning of a deacon from gender neutral to only men.

You even "Replied to post" although you certainly didn't address what I said. See post #123 on page 7, if you forgot!

How many times does the same thing have to be posted, before you understand what the Bible actually says, not the uninspired KJV?

By the way, I had forgotten about the Archbishop of Canterbury being part of the scheme to make men and kings, and certainly bishops, have primacy over the common people. That is why you had break away groups like the Puritans, and Baptists like John Bunyan, who wrote Pilgrim's Progress. He was put in jail for years, because he refused to used the Anglican prayer book for his sermons. He used the Bible, which goes to show you how far a wrong doctrine will go.

Imagine getting thrown in jail for preaching from the Bible?!! That is what the KJV legitimized.

PS. Would it help you at all, if I started another profile, and made it male, and then posted these things about how the Bible is not against women pastors? Is it just because you refuse, like Samuel to accept anything written by a woman? At least John Piper will read scholarly research written by a woman, even if he will not allow her to read the same exact thing aloud! Hypocrisy at its finest!

Well, it is not going to happen! I am a woman, I have studied to show myself approved. I am not perfect, and if someone can show me in the Greek where I have gone wrong, I will accept it. But so far, no one has addressed my posts, except maybe Lynn, who was "almost" convinced! LOL

Ummm, honestly? I really do think you'd get a lot more "respect" in here if you had a male name and blue letters for that name. (Respect as an unearned thing, not real respect, sadly.)

This whole thing that a woman can't know what she's talking about really is a reoccurring theme on this site. Not all. Not even many, but it's like putting a tablespoon of vinegar in a pot of soup. We can all taste the undercurrent from the little there is.

I was talking about mantles of protection from Christian men. IRL, if people talked to me the way John146 (and a couple other guys, but thankfully one has since been banned) talk to me, they'd quickly learn I still am "the little woman" compared to the guys who would have my back. Only once in my life, did a guy clarify how I'm to be treated in a physical way. (My brother, on a bus, when a kid thought the bullies would have his back, but my brother scared the bullies by lifting the kid by the front of his shirt to the roof of the bus with one hand to tell him to knock it off. Never was a target of those bullies after that. lol) But most guys, IRL, can tell how to treat me by the company I keep.

I am saddened that guys on here won't stand behind you in a similar way. John145 thinks he can talk down to anyone he deems less-than-he. Where is the mantle that no one is stepping up?

Yes, guys! I'm talking to you. Sure, Angela can defend her position fine, but why aren't you letting J145 know this is unacceptable behavior?

 

[Dino246]

I believe the Bible states quite clearly that the role of a pastor should be a man.

Chapter and verse, please... with the term "pastor" in direct reference to females.

 

[Magenta]

I looked up just the one with Tychicus:

"Tychicus, the dear brother and faithful servant in the Lord..." Eph 6:21

Well, it does not seem to be a title for the church preacher/pastor or something like that. It seems to me that he is just serving generally to the spreading of gospel, to Paul on his journeys etc.

BTW, Tychicus was a brother of Trophimus

Why does Strong think it must be a leading church position?

According to wiki, Tychicus is mentioned five times in the NT:

(1) Acts 20:4 states that Tychicus was from the Roman province of Asia.
The Western text indicates that he was an Ephesian.

(2) In Ephesians 6:21, the author (traditionally identified as Paul)
calls Tychicus a "dear brother and faithful servant in the Lord" (NIV),

(3) while in Colossians, he says he is "a dear brother, a faithful minister and fellow servant in the Lord." In both Ephesians and Colossians, the author indicates that he is sending Tychicus to the Christians to whom he is writing, in order to encourage them (and build up the church).

(4) The passages in the Epistle to Titus (Titus 3:12) and to Timothy show that Tychicus was again with Paul after the appeal to the emperor had resulted in the apostle regaining his freedom. The passage in Titus evidently refers to the interval between Paul's first and second Roman imprisonments, and while he was again engaged in missionary journeys. The apostle writes to Titus, who was in Crete in charge of the churches there, that he intended to send either Artemas or Tychicus to him, so as to take the oversight of the work of the gospel in that island so that Titus might be free to come to be with the apostle at Nicopolis.

(5) The last passage where Tychicus is mentioned occurs in 2 Timothy, which was written in Rome not long before Paul's execution. To the very end Paul was busy as ever in the work of the gospel; and though it would have been a comfort to him to have his friends beside him, yet the interests of the kingdom of Christ are uppermost in his thoughts, and he sends these friends to help the progress of the work. To the last, Tychicus was serviceable as ever: "Tychicus I sent to Ephesus" (2 Timothy 4:12). As Timothy was in charge of the church in Ephesus (1 Timothy 1:3), the coming of Tychicus would set him free, so as to enable him to set off at once to rejoin Paul at Rome, as the apostle desired him (2 Timothy 4:9, 2 Timothy 4:21).

It seems apparent that the word in relation to Tychicus puts him in a ministerial/pastoring position. Look at the last one especially, where Tychicus is sent to replace Timothy, who was in charge of the church at Ephesus.

 

[John146]

Chapter and verse, please... with the term "pastor" in direct reference to females.

see post #85

 

[Magenta]

Also number four mention of Tychicus puts him in a ministerial or pastoring
position, for he is being sent to replace Titus as head of the churches in Crete.

(4) The passages in the Epistle to Titus (Titus 3:12) and to Timothy show that Tychicus was again with Paul after the appeal to the emperor had resulted in the apostle regaining his freedom. The passage in Titus evidently refers to the interval between Paul's first and second Roman imprisonments, and while he was again engaged in missionary journeys. The apostle writes to Titus, who was in Crete in charge of the churches there, that he intended to send either Artemas or Tychicus to him, so as to take the oversight of the work of the gospel in that island so that Titus might be free to come to be with the apostle at Nicopolis.

 

[Depleted]

Lynn, are you sure this is not just culturally conditioned? I have always been much physically weaker than my husband. These days, with my hands being so weak, he even has to open jars and other things for me.

But that doesn't make me spiritiually weaker, or intellectually weaker. My husband has totally different strengths that me. He has a faith that is more solid than a mountain. Theologically, I will discover some great truth in the Bible, and he will reply something to me showing me that he has known it all along! He even thinks of questions that I needed to read on here, or in a book, about Calvinism or other topics.

He is a spiritual giant, in my eyes! But would he ever post on the internet? Never! That is my area of expertise. I have to work hard to get what he has, but it doesn't make me weaker, just different. I have more than made up for our differences by studying as hard as I have. He slipped away from reading the Bible a few years ago. I tried to encourage him, but he would not listen. A pastor in our last church did a sermon series on reading the Bible, and THAT got him reading again. Now, it just takes a gentle reminder to get him back on track.

Does that make him spiritually weaker? No, we are just different! God uses him in different ways than me. We compliment one another, which is what a godly marriage should do!

I'm not spiritually weaker either. (We're filled with Jesus, so does it matter what the container looks like if it is filled with Jesus?) Intellectually? Yeah, maybe a little, but because he really is smarter than most, including me. I'm not intellectually weak though. The different comes in the emotions and the physical strength. Guys hold their emotions differently. He can listen without getting emotional with me (usually. lol) I listen to him and tend to want to knock someone's head off, until I find out he's not even angry with the person. (And then he has to explain why he's not angry, and I don't get it. )

But, yeah, that's it. We do complement each other, but it still comes down to someone has the final authority in any given matter, and if it's not something that is won by consensus, it's the guy. I remember once in our marriage, when that happened, (well, right now, I don't, but I remember remembering it a year or two ago, lol) because he does listen and he does love me, but a pastor is the head of the church. It's a lot harder to get consensus with more than two people involved. Do women have the authority to make a decision for an entire church? (And I'm just thinking of stuff like, "Let's buy that building to meet in. "Let's use this money to put in a kitchen in the basement." "The Peterson's lost their house, so let's give them $10,000 from the ministry funds." And, I know there are elders to help in those instances, but it usually works out the pastor is the deciding vote.)

Honest. I really think you are a wonderful teacher. And I'm pretty sure you're a good counselor. (Hey, counseling online isn't the same as face-to-face.) So, please, never think I look down on you because we differ on this. You're in a slightly lower spot on my hero list than Lydia. (Nothing personal. I like marketing and business. lol) I'm just not fully convinced women should be pastors. I might even go off-books with what my denomination believes and go with maybe they can be, but not without other pastors in the same church.

If we never agree on this, it doesn't make me think any differently about you. This really is a Bible-based belief I have, but just like I was saying to Dino earlier -- sometimes what we believe is biblical, just not how everyone sees the same thing.

And for things like this, I don't think it has anything to do with salvation, sanctification, or changes God's place, if we are wrong. Even if I am wrong.

 

[Depleted]

The idea that man has authority over every woman is ridiculous. That alone should cause you to question how its been interpreted.

In one Scripture Paul presents husbands don't even have authority over their own bodies, their wives do.

1 Co 7:4For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

Woohoo!!!!

I call dibs. Does this mean he has to wear other colors besides blue now? lol

 

[Dino246]

see post #85

Nope, that was overseer (episkopoi) not pastor (poiemen). Try again.

 

[trofimus]

(5) The last passage where Tychicus is mentioned occurs in 2 Timothy, which was written in Rome not long before Paul's execution. To the very end Paul was busy as ever in the work of the gospel; and though it would have been a comfort to him to have his friends beside him, yet the interests of the kingdom of Christ are uppermost in his thoughts, and he sends these friends to help the progress of the work. To the last, Tychicus was serviceable as ever: "Tychicus I sent to Ephesus" (2 Timothy 4:12). As Timothy was in charge of the church in Ephesus (1 Timothy 1:3), the coming of Tychicus would set him free, so as to enable him to set off at once to rejoin Paul at Rome, as the apostle desired him (2 Timothy 4:9, 2 Timothy 4:21).

It seems apparent that the word in relation to Tychicus puts him in a ministerial/pastoring position. Look at the last one especially, where Tychicus is sent to replace Timothy, who was in charge of the church at Ephesus.

I dont know, it all seems to be long shots to me.

In Colossians he is called a "minister". I suppose its the word "diakonos". Meaning possibly anything.

Yes, he sent him to Ephesus and mentioned it in absolutelly different lettter without the word diakonos.

Because it was some kind of a church charge (I agree), he would be more like presbyteros or episkopos of the church there.
Why do you think he had a role of diakonos there?

 

[Depleted]

I agree with everything, except it was King Henry VIII who started the Protestant Church, because they would not let him divorce Catherine of Aragon, who had only produced one daughter, who became Bloody Mary, as she tried to switch England back to the RCC. Because she killed so many people. After this, the English made a law that no one who was Roman Catholic could hold the throne. Catherine was past child-bearing age, and Henry was in love with Anne Boleyn, who he married, and she had Elizabeth, who became the famous Queen Elizabeth I, who saved England from the massive Spanish armada, and an invasion from Spain. Further, when Henry finally had a son, he had congenital syphilis, leading to his early demise, as a teenager. He was a fervent Protestant, who had studied the Bible extensively, and actually governed well. So Mary was next in line, and that started a couple of years of serious bloodshed.

King James was the homosexual, if you will remember. He assembled the translation committee along with the Archbishop of Canterbury, to consolidate the power of the king, the church, and men over women. Leading to some very bad translations in that Bible.

History lesson over! Tudor history fascinates me. Not so much the Stuarts, I admit!

BUT James also wanted to change the Bible into Rex Lex instead of Lex Rex. (The king is law instead of the law is king.) And the translators tried to remain faithful to what the Bible really says. Despite all the shenanigans going on for the purpose of that particular Bible, I think God kept his word in tactic. Maybe not the best translation ever, but it is God's word.

(Henry the VIII was the guy who started the dominos falling down that eventually landed my family in the New World. His contribution was to behead my ancestor -- the Duke of Buckingham -- and then took the family's land for himself. That didn't get anyone to America. It was a great grandson -- or maybe a great, great grandson -- who went back to the crown of his era to demand the land back, so he was beheaded, that prompted my ancestors to think a nice boat trip to the other side of the world sounded like a better plan.)

 

[Magenta]

I dont know, it all seems to be long shots to me.

In Colossians he is called a "minister". I suppose its the word "diakonos". Meaning possibly anything.

Yes, he sent him to Ephesus and mentioned it in absolutelly different lettter without the word diakonos.

Because it was some kind of a church charge (I agree), he would be more like presbyteros or episkopos of the church there.
Why do you think he had a role of diakonos there?

It wasn't just a church charge, but being put in charge of the churches (plural) in a specific area. I was enlarging on your looking into one only mention of Tychicus, since he was mentioned more than once and obviously he was thought very highly of and placed in fairly prominent and important positions. If the word minister applies to him and he is fulfilling such important and far-reaching responsibilities in the church, why would Phoebe being called the same thing automatically lessen her status or responsibilities within the church simply because she is a woman?

 

[trofimus]

It seems apparent that the word in relation to [/COLOR]Tychicus puts him in a ministerial/pastoring position. Look at the last one especially, where Tychicus is sent to replace Timothy, who was in charge of the church at Ephesus.

"Deacons are the institutional servants of the Church, responsible for the exercise of the congregation’s diakonia. Indeed, the word “deacon” means “servant,” and diakonia means “service.” But not just any service—service to the poor. Thus in Acts 6:1 Luke states that the Hellenistic widows of Jerusalem were overlooked in the “daily serving of food”—in Greek, the daily diakonia. In Acts 11:29, when the faithful in Antioch collected money to send to the Christian poor in Judea, this relief money is described again by Luke as diakonia. In Romans 15:31, Paul also describes the money he had collected for the poor in the mother church as “my diakonia for Jerusalem.”

Thus the word diakonia often meant “money”; the diakonos or “deacon” was the one locally responsible for it."

What about this?

Holy Orders

 

[trofimus]

It wasn't just a church charge, but being put in charge of the churches (plural) in a specific area. I was enlarging on your looking into one only mention of Tychicus, since he was mentioned more than once and obviously he was thought very highly of and placed in fairly prominent and important positions. If the word minister applies to him and he is fulfilling such important and far-reaching responsibilities in the church, why would Phoebe being called the same thing automatically lessen her status or responsibilities within the church simply because she is a woman?

I dont think Tychicus was going to those churces as "diakonos", but as some higher "rank" Episcopos, probably.

Sorry, if I write the words in some English/Greek mix, I am too lazy to work with English dictionary.

 

[Willie-T]

There are a handful of women here that I highly respect...... As there are also a handful of men I highly respect.

Equally, there are a handful of women here I don't think too much of..... and also a handful of men that don't rate too high with me.

And all of these people already know who they are.

And, to me, this is just life. The same as I know who likes me here, and who doesn't. I don't think any of it has to with the gender of any of us.