Works Complete Faith?

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Sep 23, 2023
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You made a simple statement: "I believe scripture." That comes across as, "I believe what the Bible says and you don't." Most Christians "believe scripture."
I can see where what I said could have been misunderstood that way--that wasn't what I meant.

Sometimes, especially after I've already proven my points with a user, and that user is choosing to emptily shoot their little bb gun on the outskirts of the conversation, making a bunch of meaningless noise, but especially if they're not even addressing anything I've said, I really can't be bothered to continue explaining my views to them.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Salvation isn't tenuous, but, yeah, it requires abiding in Christ by keeping the twofold command and being given His Spirit as a result--just as it speaks of being repaid eternal life at the final judgment (Ro 2:6-16). Only those who abide in Him are given His Spirit--and only those who believe in the Name of the Son of God and love one another abide in Him.
In response to this I will say this:
1. Is salvation -- justification and the gift of eternal life -- given at the moment of repentance and believing on Christ, or is it postponed until the final judgement? Scripture says that Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteous. That would have been instantaneous, would it not?

2. is abiding in Christ related to sanctification, and the picture of the vine and the branches is presented by Christ when He speaks of abiding in Him? So is sanctification the same as justification, are are those two different aspects of salvation?
 
Sep 23, 2023
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In response to this I will say this:
1. Is salvation -- justification and the gift of eternal life -- given at the moment of repentance and believing on Christs, or is it postponed until the final judgement? Scripture says that Abraham believed God and is imputed to him for righteous. That would have been instantaneous.

2. is abiding in Christ related to sanctification, and the picture of the vine and the branches is presented by Christ when He speaks of abiding in Him? So is sanctification the same as justification, are are those two different aspects of salvation?
1. All of the above.
We were saved, we are being saved, we will be saved.
Scripture teaches it all.
Also, we were justified, there is ongoing justification, and there is final justification--and all along the way, the justified are receiving His Spirit, and He is withdrawing His Spirit from those who are not abiding in Christ by obeying the twofold commandment. Remember, "He who disregards this [prohibition against immorality] disregards not man but God Who gives you His Spirit." It's a warning that He withdraws His Spirit from the disobedient. "Don't cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Spirit from me!" cried David.

2. I haven't thought about justification versus sanctification.
It's not really a concern, as justification is, in Scripture, past-tense, ongoing, and final.
 

turbosixx

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Sep 16, 2023
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No, he's saying "Christ accomplished many things for me by dying and resurrecting".
I would be more apt to see your point if you could point out some verses, in this book, that talk about Jesus's "finished work". It looks to me you're putting all that into one word, cross. If all that is in the word cross, then there should be somewhere and inspired writer tells us that.

I did a search of Galatians for circumcised/circumcision and it came up 12 times. I would suggest it's implied in the first chapter and maybe more. For law, 26 times. I suggest that is what Paul is talking about throughout this book. That is the context, do you want to be under law of flesh or law of liberty. Free comes up 9 times.
6:14 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision Old Law , but a new creation. Cross

The problem I have with Jesus' "finished work" is man says there is nothing you can do for to save yourself. The bible tells us faith without works is dead, and I believe that. Yes, Jesus's sacrifice makes salvation possible for us, but we still have to do something in order to be saved. If there is nothing we can do to receive the gift, then everyone is saved. I just don't see Paul mentioning Jesus' "finished" work.
Maybe I'm not picking up what you're laying down :)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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One's life work will be lost... as though it were meaningless.
That's a huge stretch when the counterpart gains an actual reward from God. I'm still going with, he suffered the loss of rewards. God has rewards he wants to hand out. You get it or you don't.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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Seems pretty straightforward, James clearly says faith is completed, or perfected, by works. Theologians like to take things and squeeze them till there's nothing left. I prefer the simple and clear meaning.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Let's try not to over think this people.
 
Sep 23, 2023
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I would be more apt to see your point if you could point out some verses, in this book, that talk about Jesus's "finished work". It looks to me you're putting all that into one word, cross. If all that is in the word cross, then there should be somewhere and inspired writer tells us that.

I did a search of Galatians for circumcised/circumcision and it came up 12 times. I would suggest it's implied in the first chapter and maybe more. For law, 26 times. I suggest that is what Paul is talking about throughout this book. That is the context, do you want to be under law of flesh or law of liberty. Free comes up 9 times.
6:14 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision Old Law , but a new creation. Cross

The problem I have with Jesus' "finished work" is man says there is nothing you can do for to save yourself. The bible tells us faith without works is dead, and I believe that. Yes, Jesus's sacrifice makes salvation possible for us, but we still have to do something in order to be saved. If there is nothing we can do to receive the gift, then everyone is saved. I just don't see Paul mentioning Jesus' "finished" work.
Maybe I'm not picking up what you're laying down :)
He literally says 'but a new creation' lol
That's something Christ did.
That's why he boasts in the Cross!

Remember I'm saying works complete faith!

But, even if just for your own sake, don't you dare take away from what Christ has done! The devil will have a field day with you if you do!
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Seems pretty straightforward, James clearly says faith is completed, or perfected, by works. Theologians like to take things and squeeze them till there's nothing left. I prefer the simple and clear meaning.
It's hardly that simple. The logical conclusion is that faith plus works equals salvation. That is contrary to the teaching of Ephesians 2:8-10. It, also and invariably, leads to the conclusion that salvation can be lost, since it has been earned.
 
Sep 23, 2023
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In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Let's try not to over think this people.
James already knows his audience believes, he's addressing ongoing justification and final justification.

You can't accept James, but that's your problem, not mine.
 
Sep 23, 2023
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Although scripture clearly teaches that obtaining salvation is not on the basis of works (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..) God's judgment is on the basis of man's deeds whether good or bad. (John 5:28-29; Romans 2:5-11; 1 Corinthians 3:8; 2 Corinthians 5:10 etc..). In Romans 2:5-11, Paul describes the deeds of two distinct groups: the redeemed/everyone who does good and the unredeemed/everyone who does evil.

We reap what we sow, yet salvation is a gift received by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) In Romans 4:4-6, we read - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. Those who teach salvation by works typically confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. The natural man cannot understand. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

In regard to "doers of the law" in Romans 2, context is important. Paul was talking to the Jews (Romans 2:17-24) about their judging of the Gentiles and then points them to their own law (standard of judgment) and hypocrisy and tells them that the doers of the law will be justified before God (v. 13). That leaves them out, along with everyone else. (Romans 3:22-28; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9) The standard they wanted to measure up to was the law. Paul was telling them that the doers of the law will be justified. So, obey the law, obey all of it, but if you don’t obey all of it, you failed! He tells them that the Gentiles who didn't have the law according to the knowledge of the Jews were instinctively doing the things of the law (verse 14) and will be judged accordingly. How much more so the Jews?

Paul was showing the self-righteous Jews who judged the Gentiles that they were not able to measure up to the perfect standard of the law. They were hypocrites. This is why Paul tells us in the very next chapter in Romans 3:28 that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law. *No one was able to perfectly obey the law (except for Jesus Christ). If you fail even once (stumble in one point), then you become guilty of all. James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."

Galatians 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." The Jews can be justified before God by keeping the Law, but he or she has to be 100% perfect. A person can’t fail even once--ever. But all have failed (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 6:23; 1 John 1:8-10), that is why man is justified before God by faith and not by the works of the law. (Romans 3:22-28, Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9 etc..)

That is speculative at best. The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

2 Timothy 2:19 - the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” Those who believe the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14) Movable foundations are based on the wrong foundation. Namely, works righteousness instead of Christ.

In regard to 2 Corinthians 13:5, for those who demanded proof that Christ was speaking through Paul, he turned their challenge around and asked them to test themselves to see whether they are in the faith. Paul trusts that they will discover that we have not failed the test. Sadly though, there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together throughout various churches and on various Christian forum sites.
Sorry, I just saw this now (while searching for statements previously made). I will get to it, God willing, soon.
 
Sep 23, 2023
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It's hardly that simple. The logical conclusion is that faith plus works equals salvation. That is contrary to the teaching of Ephesians 2:8-10. It, also and invariably, leads to the conclusion that salvation can be lost, since it has been earned.
Lol whether something is a gift or not has no bearing on whether it can be lost--eg, everything Adam had was a gift, and yet he lost it!
Did you never in your life receive a gift and then lose it (eg, as a kid--did your parents ever give you something you lost)?
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Lol whether something is a gift or not has no bearing on whether it can be lost--eg, everything Adam had was a gift, and yet he lost it!
That's a perfectly good response to an argument I never made. Just out of curiosity, do you believe works complete faith? Do you likewise believe salvation can be lost?
 
Sep 23, 2023
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In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Let's try not to over think this people.
The state of the believers James writes to is as the state of the believer who doesn't walk by faith in Ro 14:23--"condemned".

Now, James wants to move them to repent, and walk as what they truly are, as what faith in Christ gave them ("purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened"), so as to regain their justification that was given them and to continue to walk in it.
 
Sep 23, 2023
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That's a perfectly good response to an argument I never made. Just out of curiosity, do you believe works complete faith? Do you likewise believe salvation can be lost?
Uh... do you see the title of the thread? Have you read anything I've written this entire time?

I mean, asking that's almost as bad as saying something like "if you didn't earn it, you can't lose it!"

:ROFL:
 

turbosixx

Active member
Sep 16, 2023
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He literally says 'but a new creation' lol
That's something Christ did.
That's why he boasts in the Cross!

Remember I'm saying works complete faith!

But, even if just for your own sake, don't you dare take away from what Christ has done! The devil will have a field day with you if you do!
I agree works complete faith. Maybe I'm miss understanding you. You're right and I do not take away from Christ. I know 100% my works will NEVER save me. Only Jesus can save me by His sacrifice, mercy and grace.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Uh... do you see the title of the thread? Have you read anything I've written this entire time?

I mean, asking that's almost like saying something like "if you didn't earn it, you can't lose it!"
Sometimes things are restated or redone for emphasis. I put forward a statement, and was attempting to show its validity with an example.
And that's the second time, in answering, that you have ascribed to me some idea that I haven't spoken to.
I generally ask very specific questions. A yes or no would have sufficed.
 
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