Works Complete Faith?

[Mem]

It just seems to me to follow logically, and I did see where you give caution to logic but, it seems to me that if we cannot save ourselves by our works, anymore, then neither can we condemn ourselves by our works, anymore. So, there must be some other way that we are either saved or condemned.

 

[romans113336]

It just seems to me to follow logically, and I did see where you give caution to logic but, it seems to me that if we cannot save ourselves by our works, anymore, then neither can we condemn ourselves by our works, anymore. So, there must be some other way that we are either saved or condemned.

Biblical precedent takes precedent (lol) over logic.
After logic has taken precedent in, it can proceed.
Like scientifically, lots of things are counterintuitive, like quantum physics.
Biblical precedent is counterintuitive.
After it is granted, then the Bible can make sense.

 

[Truthnightmare]

@Truthnightmare It really is tangential though so I'd prefer to move on.

I disagree a bit.. But as you said we should be focused on Christ, that will solve many of problems.

 

[Mem]

Biblical precedent takes precedent (lol) over logic.
After logic has taken precedent in, it can proceed.
Like scientifically, lots of things are counterintuitive, like quantum physics.
Biblical precedent is counterintuitive.
After it is granted, then the Bible can make sense.

Do you believe that scripture is capable of illogical conclusion?

 

[Mem]

Do you believe that scripture is capable of illogical conclusion?

I don't. So if I encounter an illogical conclusion which is derived from scripture, I have to assume that the flawed logic was introduced by the interpreter.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Do you believe that scripture is capable of illogical conclusion?

Yes, when dealing with man trying to decide what is logical.

 

[Mem]

Yes, when dealing with man trying to decide what is logical.

Yes, scripture can be illogical, inherently, or yes, man trying to decide it's logic?

 

[romans113336]

I disagree a bit...

You should--there's always a more perfect way, a more refined way, of viewing things, it's just not my concern here and now.

 

[Mem]

I steer clear of 'because I said so' theology. In fact, I run from it. I'm certain that God, even as in saying, "I have spoken." has never said it exclusively in the sense of "because I said so." He always has sound reason, even if we do not readily see it.

 

[romans113336]

I steer clear of 'because I said so' theology. In fact, I run from it. I'm certain that God, even as in saying, "I have spoken." has never said it exclusively in the sense of "because I said so." He always has sound reason, even if we do not readily see it.

What I'm saying is unless you understand Biblical precedent, you won't properly understand NT doctrine, just coming in with a blank "logic". You'll come up with systems like "Monergism" that try to make sense of things but is full of inconsistencies and powerless to substantively answer for them.

 

[romans113336]

I steer clear of 'because I said so' theology. In fact, I run from it. I'm certain that God, even as in saying, "I have spoken." has never said it exclusively in the sense of "because I said so." He always has sound reason, even if we do not readily see it.

I don't at all mind "because I said so". God is God. What ever He says it is that it what it is. Now, after that is accepted, you have keys whereby you may understand NT doctrine.

 

[romans113336]

Do you believe that scripture is capable of illogical conclusion?

Scripture isn't, but, again, it's why I said FIRST accept Scripture, THEN logic can make sense of things.
Do God's miracles make any "sense" for instance? No, they're acts of God.

 

[Mem]

Scripture isn't, but, again, it's why I said FIRST accept Scripture, THEN logic can make sense of things.
Do God's miracles make any "sense" for instance? No, they're acts of God.

God's miracles reveal God, and so reveal His truth that is hidden to us.

 

[romans113336]

God's miracles reveal God, and so reveal His truth that is hidden to us.

Right, but you've "accepted" that... the "logical" unbeliever, however, rejects them.
Similarly, someone who is not versed in other Biblical precedents cannot make sense of Scripture--they try to make sense of Scripture with the "tools" they have, but they do not have Biblical precedent.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Yes, scripture can be illogical, inherently, or yes, man trying to decide it's logic?

I deal with this often… The logic within physics tells us, man cannot walk on water. To say so would be illogical. However; Peter walked on water because of faith, a component of logic that man has never been able to quantify.

 

[romans113336]

@Mem For instance, Monergists believe in TULIP because it's "God alone getting glory"--they don't know the Biblical precedent of Gideon, where God got all the glory from demanding the whittling of the army down from 30,000 to 300, getting rid of the fearful men, and then issuing commands to the remainder, and them obeying God.

God didn't have to take men out of the equation to get all the glory.
Men obeying God was God getting all the glory.

 

[Mem]

God reveals to us, "you sold yourselves for nothing..." and indeed, people are forever buying into lies.
And the power of lies, lies within fear which generate the believe this or else worry.
So, if scripture says that faith is a substance, then why do we reason it away from that reality? Even when we 'see' that substance?

 

[romans113336]

@Mem Anyway, if you believe you have a better way, by all means, follow it; I'm just looking to conform as closely as possible, through prayer and study, to the Scripture.

 

[romans113336]

believe this or else worry.

Are you saying you don't believe in Orthodoxy?

 

[Mem]

Are you saying you don't believe in Orthodoxy?

I would have to know exactly what that is before I'd devote all my faith to it.