Works vs. Works

plaintalk · Jul 31, 2015

“When you call upon the Lord to save you it is that you trust in Him to come to your aid. Inherent in your calling is the essential faith that He can and will save you. So, in essence, to call on the name of the Lord unto salvation is to trust in Him to save you.” mailmandan

Response: And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name. (Acts 22: 16) When Paul was baptized his sins were washed away and he called upon His name. Clearly, baptism, a work of faith, preceded the washing away of his sins (salvation from his sins). In addition he was calling on the name of the Lord. For what? And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you---not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--- (1Peter 3: 21) Clearly, when we are baptized, we are asking God to give us a good conscience, the forgiveness of our sins. How? When we obey Christ, we are sprinkled with his blood. (! Pet. 1: 2) As our bodies are washed with pure water, our hearts our sprinkled clean from an evil conscience. (Heb. 10: 22) Our conscience is cleansed from dead works by the blood of Christ. (Heb. 9: 14) Our work of faith, baptism, perfects our faith making it acceptable to God. (James 2: 22) So, in essence, to call on the name of the Lord unto salvation is to be baptized in the name of Christ.

Is calling on the name of the Lord unto salvation, trusting in Him to save you? No, because we read in Rom. 10: 14 that one cannot call on the name of the Lord until we believe. How can we call on God whom we have not believed? Calling on the name of the Lord follows faith.
God bless

mailmandan · Aug 1, 2015

plaintalk said:

Amen! Calling on the name of the Lord here signifies an exercise of faith in Christ, not an additional requirement to become saved after faith.

The first question that must be answered is "when was Paul saved?" Paul tells that he did not receive or hear the Gospel from Ananias, but rather he heard it directly from Christ. Galatians 1:11-12 says, "For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." Paul had repented (Acts 9:6). "Lord, what will you have me to do?" Repentance means a "change of mind," and is wrought by the grace of God. Paul once persecuted the Lord (Acts 9:5), but is now ready to serve Him. Paul had believed. He had Christ as his Lord (Acts 9:6). The Bible tells us that "no man can say that Jesus is Lord except "by" the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). Paul had, by the work of the Holy Spirit, submitted to Christ as Lord. Paul prayed (Acts 9:11). "Behold, he is praying," the Lord said to Ananias. This indicates that Paul's praying was pleasing to God. People in the church of Christ teach that God does not hear an unsaved man's prayer, quoting in this regard John 9:31 - "We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will." Well, Paul was a worshipper of God, calling Christ "Lord" and ready to serve Him. All of these things characterized Paul before he was baptized. So, Paul heard and believed in Christ prior to getting water baptized. Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was water baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his water baptism. It is also interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was not saved.

Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes note of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT). Scripture must harmonize with other scripture. As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other work which follows faith, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation. Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple.

The genitive in the Greek text is correctly translated as the pledge of a good conscience, not for a good conscience. It is a pledge made from a good conscience. Baptism is a pledge to God made from a good conscience. It is that aspect (what is signified, “the answer of a good conscience toward God”) rather than the external rite (the sign, the application of water) that saves. The symbol and the reality are closely related and the symbol is sometimes used to refer to the reality and that seems to be what is confusing you. A FLOOD OF CONFUSION. By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself. So in 1 Peter 3:21; it's not the water itself that saves us, but the "appeal-to-God-for-good-conscience". Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, an evident allusion to the sprinkling of blood in the old tabernacle (Hebrews 9:18-22) and the shedding of Christ's blood for the cleansing of our consciences (Hebrews 10:1-4). 1 Peter 1:2 says for "the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." Our bodies washed with pure water, old verb to bathe, to wash. See Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5 for the use of loutron. Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration" which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Water can only cleanse the flesh outwardly; it does not cleanse the heart from sin - "not the removal of the filth of the flesh" but "the answer of a good conscience toward God."

It's the blood of Christ that has the power to remove sins, not water. Now if you can only come to understand that our sins are forgiven when we BELIEVE (Acts 10:43; Romans 3:24-26) BEFORE we are water baptized. The Bible teaches that we are saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and justified by faith (Romans 5:1). People who are saved and justified are not lost and still in need of having their sins literally washed away. Also, faith precedes water baptism. Since we are saved and justified at the moment of faith, then we don't need to comply with any further conditions/works to have our sins forgiven and literally washed away. *In Acts 10:43 we see that whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM shall receive REMISSION OF SINS. *What happened to baptism? It's not mentioned until verse 47 - "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" These Gentiles had already believed, received the Holy Spirit (also see Acts 11:17), spoke in tongues and were saved BEFORE water baptism. *In Romans 3:24-26, we see that: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation THROUGH FAITH IN HIS BLOOD, to declare His righteousness for the REMISSION OF SINS that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which BELIEVES IN JESUS. *What happened to baptism?

So you admit that baptism is a "work" done out of and after faith is established. We are saved through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. He was "shown to be righteous." This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. James is not saying that Abraham was not saved by works. James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. Also, in James 2:22, Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean he was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

That's false. Again, Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes note of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).

Yes because when you call upon the Lord to save you it is that you trust in Him to come to your aid. Why would someone call upon the name of the Lord to save them if they did not believe He could save them?

The Bible says that we are saved through faith, yet you say that we are not saved through faith but by works that we accomplish after faith. We must believe "mental assent" in the person and historical facts about Jesus before we can call upon the name of the Lord and believe (trust, rely) in Him for salvation, believe the gospel/saving belief. "Mental assent" belief (Romans 10:14) precedes (belief, trust, reliance) saving belief (Romans 1:16). For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. Are you trying to tell me that Paul was wrong here and we are still lost when we believe the gospel and are actually saved by works that we accomplish "after" we believe the gospel?

You left some questions unanswered from my last post:

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? What happened to baptism?

Who is it that perseveres under trial and loves the Lord? Believers or unbelievers? Do you attend the church of Christ?

Please prayerfully consider the truth and God bless.

StevieJ · Aug 1, 2015

dcontroversal said:

If thats the case why is there so much confusion and sharp disagreements in these forums daily?

So many different opinions on every single thread. Everyboday claims to know Gods word but every single thread is in contension.
You get an idea of where people are and clearly see what groups of people agree on certian subjects. But even they disagree with each other on different points.

plaintalk · Aug 1, 2015

“Saved by grace through faith, not works = several factors that precede or lead to salvation? Your argument sounds like CoC language.” Mailmandan
Response: Please read the verses quoted from the NASB before you began to edit. They speak of works of faith that lead to salvation. It is not an argument, it is a statement of fact. If CoC concurs, praise God. Many types of works are mentioned in the Scriptures but there are two broad categories that oppose one another, works of merit and works of faith (1 Thess. 1: 3) given by Paul. The works mentioned in Eph. 2: 8, 9 are works of merit, including works of righteousness and works of the law. They are the works of which men boast and they do not contribute to salvation nor do they justify. James tells us that the works of faith do justify by perfecting our faith. We are saved by grace through faith but not faith alone. God bless.

plaintalk · Aug 1, 2015

He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. (Mark 16: 16)

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned." The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES.*What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.” --mailmandan

Response: The simple truth that any unbiased mind will admit is that Jesus said “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.” Clearly faith and baptism precede salvation. How many times must He say it? Surely, once is enough! Jesus spoke truly but not exhaustively. Does the lack of mention of ‘repentance’ imply that repentance is unimportant. Surely not for God has commanded all men everywhere to repent. (Acts 17: 30) How about the reception of the Spirit? The new birth? God reveals His will to us in a narrative form, as He wills. Does the great emphasis on faith, imply that baptism is not essential? Never! So then, those who had received his word were baptized--- (Acts 2: 41) If we believe, we will be baptized and be saved!
But the Scriptures tell the same story in other places. We are all saved in the same way! Sometimes God in His wisdom and sovereignty delayed or changed the order of events but never the substance. Jesus placed great emphasis on faith because of the change from a law- works system to a grace- faith system. The omission of baptized with ”does not believe” does not in any way show that Jesus did not consider baptism to be absolutely essential to salvation. Faith is required for baptism (Acts 8: 36, 37); if you do not have faith you will not be baptized, no need to repeat the obvious; if you are baptized without faith, that baptism is meaningless.

seed_time_harvest · Aug 1, 2015

Hello plaintalk

I was looking forward to your answer to mailmandans question:

HTML:

 If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)

I believe that's in John

mailmandan · Aug 2, 2015

plaintalk said:

Do you attend the church of Christ?

No, it's another CoC misinterpretation of scripture.

Through bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics, the CoC teaches a "works based" false gospel. Praise God for the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). Are you ready to repent and BELIEVE the gospel?

A distinction without a difference. If good works accomplished out of faith were the basis by which we received eternal life, then these works would merit our salvation. In 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" faith. You must understand the difference between faith and works that follow as a result of our faith. We are saved FOR good works, NOT by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Good works in general are works of merit if they are the basis by which we receive eternal life. Why is that so hard for you to understand? You said the works in Ephesians 2:8,9 include "works of righteousness" and in Titus 3:5, Paul said - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. There you have it. We are not saved by works, period.

James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" as Paul is in Romans 4:2-3 but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. As I already explained to you in post #102. In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and also our works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

In Luke 7:29, God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist. This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous". Once again, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

The harmony of Romans 4:2-6 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

We are saved by grace through faith (rightly understood IN CHRIST ALONE) and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). We are not saved by a dead faith that remains alone (barren of works) which is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. So James does not teach that we are saved by works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is evidenced/confirmed by works. So the word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith in "Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.* James chapter 2 is a major stumbling block for the CoC and for Roman Catholics and Mormons as well.

Please prayerfully consider the truth and God bless.

mailmandan · Aug 2, 2015

plaintalk said:

He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. (Mark 16: 16)

Click to expand...

People who attend the church of Christ seem to be absolutely obsessed with water baptism. That's just about the only thing they talked about in the church of Christ that I once attended many years ago.

Amen! Noticed how I harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion.

The unbiased mind understands that Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned" not he who is not baptized will be condemned. The unbiased mind also does not ignore the simple truth that the ONE requirement that Jesus mentioned 9 different times in connection with receiving eternal life in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,30,47; 11:25,26 is BELIEVES, not baptism. If baptism precedes salvation, then why didn't Jesus that in these 9 different verses? In Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18 we clearly see that water baptism FOLLOWS salvation and does not precede it. *You still have not answer my question.

Jesus never once said whoever is not baptized will be condemned. How many times must Jesus say whoever believes in Him "apart from additions or modifications" will receive eternal life before you believe Him and stop "adding water and works" to believes in Him? Surely, nine times is enough! If we look at Mark 16:16 closely, we see that it is composed of two basic statements. 1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2—He who does not believe will be condemned. Clearly, the determining factor regarding whether one is saved or condemned is whether or not he believes. In interpreting this passage correctly, it is important to realize that while it tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they will be saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would have had to be included, that statement being: “He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “He who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.

When Jesus says whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life, He does not need to spell out repentance because it already took place when the person changed their mind and chose to believe in Him. To say that someone truly believes in Him and is saved but they never repented is an OXYMORON. Repentance actually precedes saving belief in Christ. The CoC reverses the scriptural order of repent and believe. To the contrary we find:

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. *Not believe the gospel then afterwards repent to become saved.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

A major error in the CoC is that they seem to believe that ALL belief is the same "except for the lack of works" (James 2:19) and cannot grasp a DEEPER faith that trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation (Acts 16:31). This also explains why they have so much faith in "water and works."

How about it? Acts 10:47 - "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" Received the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism. Clearly saved before water baptism.

Salvation through faith is not salvation by baptism. Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple. Unfortunately, your CoC indoctrination has blinded you from the truth.

Received his word then "afterwards" baptized. If we believe then surely why refuse to get baptized? BUT we are saved when we believe BEFORE we get water baptized (Luke 8:12; John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..). Notice believe and be saved in Luke 8:12. Notice all that believe are justified from all things in Acts 13:39 etc.. etc.. *What happened to baptism? When will you believe?

Yes, the same way. By grace through faith, not works yet you try to "shoe horn" baptism and other works "into" saved through faith, not works, but the shoe does not fit.

The substance has always been faith, not works.

*If that's true then show me where Jesus said whoever is not baptized will not be saved? *If water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation then why didn't Jesus mention it in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? There is a distinction between believes AND getting baptized afterwards (Mark 16:16) and Jesus clarified the first clause with "but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Your argument does not hold water. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he (has not been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Faith is already established BEFORE water baptism and we are saved through faith. Also, actually there are plenty of people who do not have saving faith in Christ yet they get water baptized anyway because they believe they must in order to become saved. Now sure these people may believe "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Christ (yet they trust in works to save them) so they don't have saving faith in Christ which trusts exclusively in Him for salvation. Been there, done that, but now I believe the gospel.

I hope and pray that you will continue to prayerfully consider the truth.

plaintalk · Aug 2, 2015

Jesus said the he who has believed and has been baptizes shall be saved. This was said just before His ascension approximately 10 days before Pentecost if I understand correctly. The gospel message began to be preached at Pentecost. The 3,000 converts were told, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself." (Acts 2: 38, 39) In essence all people, Jews and Gentiles, as many as God shall call, were instructed to repent and be baptized in the name of Christ. How many times to you have to say it for it to be true? Surely once should be enough! We find that the Samaritans, both men and women, believed and were baptized (Acts 8: 12), the Ethiopian believed and was baptized (Acts 8: 37, 38), Paul was baptized, I am sure he believed (Acts 9: 18), Cornelius and his household believed and were baptized (Acts 10: 47, 48), Lydia and her household believed and were baptized (Acts 16: 15) the jailor and all his people believed and were baptized (Acts 16: 33), the Corinthians believed and were baptized (Acts 18: 8) the Ephesians believed and were baptized (Acts 19: 5). To shorten the story all Christians believed and were baptized (1 Cor. 12: 13) We are told in Acts 2: 41 that those who receive the word will be baptized.

If water baptism was so important why didn't Jesus mention it in all those verses in John in the early ministry? I don't know, but there are some things we should consider. First Jesus Himself was baptized. Second, during His earthly ministry, Jesus and His disciples baptized more people than John the Baptist. Third, this was a transition time, a change from a law- works system to a grace- faith system. There was a great need to emphasize the necessity of faith, being a physical descendant of Abraham wouldn't cut it. Fourth, Jesus did emphasize the necessity of the spiritual birth of water and Spirit. My opinion is that you can't be born of water unless you have first been immersed in water. Similarly you can't be born of Spirit unless you have first been immersed in the Spirit. There is one spiritual birth but two elements, water and Spirit. Fifth, I am a staunch believer that Jesus did everything at the appropriate time. God bless.

mailmandan · Aug 3, 2015

plaintalk said:

Like I already said - He who believes and is baptized shall be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe shall be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say - "he who is not baptized shall be condemned." *If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then Jesus would have mentioned it in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. *If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then God would not have made so many statements in which He promises salvation/eternal life to those who simply BELIEVE - (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:2-5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 3:22; Philippians 3:9; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.
Greek scholar A. T. Robertson, was probably the greatest Greek scholar of his day. He authored a large Greek Grammar, as well as a six volume series entitled, Word Pictures in the New Testament. In his comments on Acts 2:38 he shows how the grammar of this verse can be used to support more than one interpretation of this text. He then reaches this conclusion: “One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received.” The illustrations of both usages are numerous in the N.T. and the Koin, generally (Robertson, Grammar, page 592).

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. (BEFORE WATER BAPTISM). 47 Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT BEFORE BAPTISM and compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony*

Yet they were still ALL saved when they believed BEFORE they were water baptized. The Bible is very clear in its teachings that all Christians are expected to be baptized in water. On the other hand, the New Testament makes it equally clear that men are saved when they believe prior to receiving water baptism. Cornelius’s family received the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the gifts of the Spirit after believing the gospel but before being baptized (Acts 10:44-48). This observation must be balanced, however, by the fact that baptism was not an "optional extra" for Cornelius’s family; it was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ (Acts 10:43). Baptism is the expected initial outward response to the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4). There are a handful of verses which are often cited in an effort to try and prove that the Bible makes baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation. *1 Corinthians 12:13 is Spirit baptism, not water baptism. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. Those who teach that water baptism is absolutely required for salvation often confuse water baptism with Spirit baptism.

You don't know? So we should just ignore that John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 does not mention baptism?

Did Jesus actually do the baptizing? John 4:1 - Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples).

In John 3:5, Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that? Water and Spirit. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So which water cleanses us on the INSIDE? Plain ordinary H2O (water baptism) or LIVING WATER? Please read below:

John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.

John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 7:37 - On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit..

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *See the connection?

Please continue to prayerfully consider the truth and God bless

plaintalk · Aug 3, 2015

For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Cor. 7: 10)
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life. (Acts 11: 18)
Repentance is a "change of mind" that precedes saving faith in Christ.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Response: Matt. 21: 32 Matthew 21:32 and Mark 1:15 are both addressed to the Jews who lived during the personal ministry of Christ on the earth. They were already believers in God. According to Matthew John the Baptist "came In the way of righteousness" but the Jews "believed him not," that is, they did not believe what he preached. "But the publicans and the harlots believed him." But the Jews addressed, after they "had seen it," did not afterward repent that they "might believe him." Since they were already believers in God, they could have repented toward God that they might believe the preaching of John. While this would be "repentance toward God" before "faith in John," It would not be repentance toward God before faith in God. Faith in God had to come first.

Mk. 1: 15 First of all, "Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk. 1:14, 15). In this passage the word repentance comes before the word believe, and therefore men infer from this that it means that in obedience to the gospel repentance precedes faith. On this occasion "Jesus was preaching to persons who already believed in the true God, and in the revelation which God had already made, and his object, at this stage of his ministry, like that of John, was to bring them to repentance as a preparation for faith in himself and his kingdom. This accounts for the order in which repentance and faith are here mentioned. To repent toward the God in whom they already believed, but whose revealed will they were violating, naturally and properly took precedence over believing in him whom God was about to reveal" (McGarvey, Commentary on Matthew and Mark, pp. 267, 268). This passage, then, does not teach that repentance precedes faith in obedience to the gospel.
Acts 20: 21 Another passage used is Acts 20:21, which reads: "testifying both to Jews and Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Let us think just a little bit about what this passage really teaches. Paul was talking to a group of people who had faith in God. They were familiar with a part of the law of God at one time, but they had become disobedient to the laws of God, and indifferent to their responsibilities to Him. Paul was telling them that before they believed in Christ they needed to repent toward God of the way that they had acted toward Him. They needed not to repent of following the laws that they had been given, before they were to be taught anything else. These men needed to repent toward God, and then they would be in better position to believe in Christ. The order here was: faith in God; and then repentance toward God. The gospel order differs from that in that we are commanded to have faith in God, and also in Christ as the Son of God, then repent toward Christ, and then to be baptized into Christ.
The order of mention is not always the order of occurrence. Rm. 10: 9
One should not generalize from these verses.
2 Cor. 7: 10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces repentance a without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. There is an inherent order in this verse, godly sorrow produces repentance which leads to salvation.
Acts 2: 37-39 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” When they heard Peter’s message they believed that they had crucified Jesus, who God has made both Lord and Christ. As a result they were pierced to the heart and asked what they should do, Peter said repent and let each of you be baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Clearly repentance and baptism preceded the forgiveness of sin and follow coming to believe.
Salvation is not by grace through faith + works; Salvation is by grace through faith which works in love. (Gal. 5: 6) Repentance and baptism are both works of faith.

What is the difference between a work of faith and a work of merit such as a work of righteous or a work of the law?

A work of faith is dependent upon faith in God; a work of merit is dependent on faith in oneself, the ability of self to perform, or faith in one’s heritage.

A work of faith is motivated by love; a work of merit is motivated by fear of punishment or in some cases strife or envy, etc.

The purpose of a work of faith is to perfect or complete our faith so that it is acceptable to God; the purpose of a work of merit is self-aggrandizement.

There is no merit in a work of faith as the story of the unprofitable servant tells us; if we do all that we are commanded, we have only done that which we should have done. God bless.

seed_time_harvest · Aug 3, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

DiscipleDave said:

Romans 4:1-2
king James version(KJV)

1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the
flesh, hath found?

2.)For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory;
but not before God.

mailmandan · Aug 3, 2015

plaintalk said:

Notice they received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18). This was repentance unto life because they repented and the new direction of this change of mind was believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved (Acts 16:31).

"Believe in the existence of God and you will be saved" is not what John was preaching. If that were the case, then the demons would be saved (James 2:19). Of course one must first believe in the existence of God before they can repent and believe the gospel. Do you know the difference between believe "that there is one God" (James 2:19) and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved? (Acts 16:31).

Mark clearly said "repent and believe the gospel" not believe the gospel then afterwards repent. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. What do YOU believe the gospel IS and what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel?

Repentance in salvation involves a change of mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us/along with any form of self-trust in human works, religious tradition, etc.. and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ alone for salvation. Water baptism FOLLOWS repentance/faith/salvation (Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18).

I already thoroughly explained Romans 10:9,10 to you in post #100.

We see that godly sorrow produces repentance which leads to salvation through faith.

As I already explained to you in post #110 - In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical and I also showed you that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony*

Salvation is through faith (their version of faith) + works in the church of Christ, the Roman Catholic church and the Mormon church.

Works in love FOLLOWS salvation through faith. Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. Baptism is a work that is done AFTER one has been saved through faith. A work "of faith" is done "out of" faith that is already established. Faith and salvation is already established then the works FOLLOW. Your "not saved by works," but "saved by works of faith" argument is sugar coated double talk.

Any works that we accomplish and add to salvation through faith in Christ would be works of merit if they were the means of receiving eternal life, regardless of what works of righteousness are performed after one has been saved through faith. Good works in general fall under the moral aspect of the law. This whole works of faith/works of obedience vs. work of merit/works of the law argument is bogus. Romans Catholics make this same argument as well in a vain effort to teach that salvation is based on works, the works that they select as necessary. They teach that man is saved through faith "infused with works" just not specific works of the law. It's still sugar coated double talk works salvation.

Either way, any works that we add to salvation through faith disqualify faith. Faith in works is faith in self and what you are teaching is that certain works "in addition to faith" must be accomplished after faith before one is saved.

I can agree with that. A work of faith is motivated by love and gratitude, not pride and expectation that one will be saved based on accomplishing these works.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham's faith was finally acceptable to God and he was finally saved based on his works in Genesis 22. Read Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:2-3 to find out how Abraham was saved. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. I already explained this to you in post #107.

If this work of faith is the means of receiving eternal life then there is merit in it. This would also mean that we are saved by works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. You can't have it both ways. Either we are saved through faith or we are saved by works. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. So how many works must you accomplish and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you? Believers do what they are commanded BECAUSE they are saved, NOT to become saved. It's our reasonable service to do good works and those who have been saved by grace through faith are saved UNTO/FOR good works, NOT by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Please continue to prayerfully consider the truth and God bless

plaintalk · Aug 4, 2015

Faith works. (Heb. 11) Not by doing works of righteousness but by doing works of faith. Noah, an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith, by faith prepared an ark before he was saved. Abraham worked before the Scriptures state that his faith was reckoned for righteousness. By faith, when called, Abraham obeyed, he left. (Heb. 11: 8) By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise. (Heb. 11: 9) By faith, when tested, offered up Isaac. (Heb. 11: 17) James tells us by so doing the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “ AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” As a result of his works, his faith was perfected. (James 2: 21-24) He was justified by works of faith and NOT by faith alone. The same is true of us today, our faith is perfected, and deemed acceptable to God when we obey.
Jesus is the source of eternal salvation to those that obey, (Heb. 5: 9) our obedience perfects our faith so that we are saved by faith. We are not saved by faith + works as some accuse us of believing, we are saved by faith which works through love. (Gal. 5: 6) The idea that we obey by believing is bogus put forth by those whose agenda is to obscure and obfuscate. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in Him. (1 John 2: 4) Those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel await eternal destruction. (2 Thess. 1: 8, 9) Matt. 7: 21- only those who do the will of the Father will enter the kingdom. Obviously the doing occurs before entering. Rom. 2: 8, 9- those who do not obey the truth will receive wrath and indignation. Gal. 3: 26, 27- by faith we become sons of God through baptism. 1 Pet.1: 22- our souls are purified in obedience to the truth

We believe the gospel, when we assent to the truth that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and arose the third day. We OBEY the gospel when we obey that form of teaching---we die with Him, we are buried with Him in baptism and we arise with Him. Obedience to the gospel takes place when we are baptized into Christ. (Rom, 6: 1-7, 17) Those who do not obey the gospel, by being baptized into His death, burial and resurrection, await eternal destruction.

Works of faith, such as repentance, baptism and confession, are by definition “of faith” consequently they do not in any way diminish the truth that salvation is by grace through faith. On the contrary, they make clear how faith works and give us the assurance that when accomplished, our faith is acceptable to God. God bless.

plaintalk · Aug 4, 2015

Paul- when was Paul saved? We read in these communications a lot of unsupported speculation about receiving the gospel and being saved but it seems to be far better to go with what we know. First, he was told by our Lord to enter the city and it will be told you what you must do. Jesus did not tell Paul what he must do. For what? IMO Ananias told him what he must do to be saved. Second, Paul was in Damascus three days, fasting and praying (Acts 9: 9, 11), yet when our Lord spoke to Ananias there was no indication that Paul had been saved, in fact he was still without sight. Ananias was told to lay hands on Paul so that Paul might regain sight. Third, when Ananias came to Paul he said that the Lord had sent him so that Paul might regain sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit. Paul received his sight and was baptized. After he was baptized he took food and was strengthened. IMO Paul was saved at this time. This account, in Acts 9, does not tell us what Ananias told Paul, but the account in Acts 22: 16 does tell us. “Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.” Paul was still in his sin. His sins were washed away when he was baptized because the Spirit sprinkled him with the blood of Christ when he obeyed. (1 Pet. 1: 2; Heb. 10: 22) Fourth, we know that one is not saved (enters the kingdom) until he is born of water and the Spirit. (John 3: 5) He was born of the water and the Spirit when he came forth from his baptism because Jesus also gives the gift of the Spirit at this time. (Acts 2: 38, 39) Fifth, Paul included himself when he said we were all baptized into one body. (1 Cor. 12: 13) Paul was saved, like we all are, when he believed the gospel and obeyed the gospel by being baptized in the name of Christ. God bless.

mailmandan · Aug 5, 2015

plaintalk said:

Faith produces works but faith in essence is not works. Works produced out of faith are works of righteousness and it's not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5). Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. It's critical that you understand the difference. So good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine saving faith in Christ but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.

That's not what the Scriptures state. You twist the Scriptures to teach salvation by works. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. So Noah was already spiritually saved through faith before he built the ark and building the ark was a demonstration of his faith and saved him (physically) from drowning.

Out of faith Abraham left his home and lived as an alien in the land of promise (that is not saved by works). It was not until Abraham BELIEVED the Lord in Genesis 15:6 that his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness." Go back and read post #91 again.

By "out of" faith Abraham offered up Isaac MANY YEARS AFTER Abraham BELIEVED God and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. HE WAS ALREADY SAVED BEFORE HE OFFERED UP ISAAC and was said to be justified by works, "shown to be righteous." The Scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22 and once again, faith made complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Please go back and read post #107.

Justified by works does not mean saved by works and James is talking about a dead empty profession of faith that "remains alone" (James 2:14 - barren of works) not faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9) which does save. Once again from post #107, we are saved by grace through faith (rightly understood IN CHRIST ALONE) and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). We are not saved by a dead faith that remains alone (barren of works) which is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. Genuine believers show their faith by their works. So James does not teach that we are saved by works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is evidenced/confirmed by works. So the word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith in "Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.* I can explain this until I'm blue in the face, but unfortunately, you just don't have ears to hear.

Our faith is acceptable to God when we trust exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation BEFORE we perform acts of obedience/good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Faith perfected by works does not mean saved by works.

Your misinterpretation equates to saved by faith + obedience/works. So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many unbelievers (including Roman Catholics and Mormons) use this verse to support salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, believers obey Him. You need to be able to distinguish between "prescriptive passages" and "descriptive passages" of Scripture. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works (Matthew 7:22-23; Luke 18:9-14). So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

A distinction without a difference. You just don't get it.

Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16). Read Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/good works which FOLLOW.

The demonstrative evidence that we know Him is that we "keep His commandments." This is what we are saved FOR, not by. By the way, the word "keep" does not mean sinless perfect obedience to all of His commandments 100% of the time. The word "keep" comes from the Greek word tereo Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. We OBEY the gospel by choosing to BELIEVE the gospel. Refusing to OBEY the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 10:16).

What is God's will for us to do in order to receive eternal life? John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Notice in verse 10 that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). Descriptive passages.

That's not what Paul said. Notice how you twisted the Scriptures. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Period). Not through faith and water baptism. Just as John 1:12 says - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name "apart from water baptism." Notice in Galatians 3:27, that those who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Now for the word "enduo" (put on). This word also appears in Romans 13:14 where we read, "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill it's lusts." This exhortation is not to a sinner, telling him to be baptized to "put on" Christ, but it is written to Christians. Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if we must "put on" Christ to be saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Romans 13:14). Right? Let's be consistent. Greek scholar AT Robertson explains this more in depth - This verb is common in the sense of putting on garments (literally and metaphorically as here). See further in Paul ( Romans 13:14 ; Colossians 3:9 ; Ephesians 4:22-24; Ephesians 6:11; Ephesians 6:14 ). In 1 Thessalonians 5:8 Paul speaks of "putting on the breastplate of righteousness." He does not here mean that one enters into Christ and so is saved by means of baptism after the teaching of the mystery religions, but just the opposite. We are justified by faith in Christ, not by circumcision or by baptism. But baptism was the public profession and pledge, the soldier's sacramentum, oath of fealty to Christ, taking one's stand with Christ, the symbolic picture of the change wrought by faith already.

"Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." When we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel, we have obeyed the truth and are saved (Romans 1:16) BEFORE we accomplish multiple acts of obedience/good works.

Believing the gospel is more than just "mental assent" belief to the fact that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." It's trusting exclusively in what happened as the all sufficient means of our salvation. *Big difference! You are teaching a "different gospel" of salvation by "water and works." We obey the gospel/obey that form of teaching when we believe the gospel by trusting exclusively in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Water baptism is merely a picture of die with Him, buried with Him, arise with Him, but not the reality. This is signified, but not procured in the waters of baptism.

False. Again, you are teaching a "different" gospel that cannot save. Your faith is in baptism + other works and is not exclusively in Christ. Obedience to the gospel takes place when we believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Those who do not obey the gospel by refusing to believe the gospel await eternal destruction. The gospel is not salvation by water baptism and it's also not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) as the Savior of all who believe/trust in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16). Are you ready to repent and believe the gospel? You are trusting in works for salvation and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.

By the time you distort repentance and confession and place them "after" faith as additional requirements to become saved "after" faith along with adding baptism as an additional requirement to become saved "after" faith they diminish the truth that salvation is by grace through faith.

You are thoroughly mixed up. Your CoC indoctrination obviously runs deep and I seriously doubt that you will swallow your pride in order to let go of your works and take hold of Christ through faith, but with God, anything is possible. I will continue to pray for you. Continue to prayerfully consider the truth and God bless.

mailmandan · Aug 5, 2015

plaintalk said:

I already thoroughly refuted your arguments above in post #102. Please go back and read that post again and prayerfully consider the truth and allow some time for the Holy Spirit to convict your heart and for the truth to sink in.

I already thoroughly refuted your arguments above in post #110. Please go back and read that post again and prayerfully consider the truth and allow some time for the Holy Spirit to convict your heart and for the truth to sink in. If the truth is what you are looking for, then you will find it in the posts that I shared with you. If accommodating your CoC doctrine is the only thing that you are interested in, then you won't accept the truth no matter how many times that I share it with you and if that is the case, then I see no point in wasting anymore of my time beating a dead horse. I at one time had attended the so called church of Christ so I understand how they error by trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. Been there, done that, but now I believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) and KNOW that I have eternal life. (1 John 5:13) Praise God!

Please continue to prayerfully consider the truth and God bless. I will continue to pray for you.

plaintalk · Aug 5, 2015

Cornelius- how was he saved? Once again we are ushered into a world of wild speculation, many things are claimed, many verses are cited as proof. I would like to suggest something that is completely different, I believe that Cornelius and his household were saved in exactly the same way we all are, by the grace of God, except that the order of events were changed for a purpose, to confirm that Gentile people are acceptable to God. Think with me for a moment. Would God be impartial if he saved some people one way and other people in a completely different way? Would God be impartial if he promised the baptism with the Holy Spirit to multitudes of Jews through John the Baptist but He did not off it to the Gentiles? This last question is the one that compelled me personally to re-examine my beliefs about the Holy Spirit. Let’s look at Cornelius and how he and his household were saved.

They heard the word, the gospel- (Acts 10: 34- 43)

They believed the word of the gospel- Acts 15: 7) As we all must do.

The gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on them- (Acts 10: 45) All who repent and are baptized in the name of Christ
receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2: 38, 39) the Holy Spirit fell on them (Acts 11: 15) just as He did on the Apostles at Pentecost; Samaritans (Acts 8: 15, 16) received the Holy Spirit Acts 10: 47) God gives the Holy Spirit to those who believe and obey. (Acts 7: 39; 5: 32) baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11: 16) We are all baptized with the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 12: 13) The gift of the Holy Spirit is poured out on all of god’s people. (Acts 2: 17)

They spoke in tongues- (Acts 10: 46) temporary spiritual gift given to confirm the reception of the Holy Spirit. Today, the reception of the Holy Spirit is confirmed by the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5: 22, 23) in the lives of the recipients.

They repented- (Acts 10: 18) All men, everywhere, are commanded by God to repent. (Acts 17: 30)

They were baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ- (Acts 10; 47, 48) All who believe are commanded to be baptized in the name of Christ. (Acts 2: 38, 39)

Cornelius and his Household were baptized with the Holy Spirit upon believing the word. They were thus born of the Spirit but they were not born of water until they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Thus they were not saved (enter the kingdom) until they were born of both water and Spirit. The one baptism is the immersion in two elements, water and Spirit, just as the one spiritual birth is a coming forth from two elements, water and Spirit. This exceptional case was made possible by the sovereignty of God and because God know the hearts of all men. (Acts 15: 8) God bless.

plaintalk · Aug 11, 2015

Mailmandan
“And, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptizes and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His name.” Acts 22: 16 Kenneth S. Wurst. Kenneth S. Wurst taught at Moody Bible Institute and, I assume, would be of the Baptist persuasion or amenable to their doctrine. “As with any verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism. (Eph. 2: 8-9; Titus 3: 5; 2 Tim. 1: 9)” The Scriptures do not say that salvation is not by works of any kind including baptism, this is Dr. Wuest’s opinion; they say salvation is not of works, that no one should boast (Eph. 2: 9); salvation is not of work of righteousness (Titus 3: 5, 6); salvation is not according to our works (2 Tim. 1: 9)
The Jamieson-Fausset- Brown Commentary 16. be baptized and wash away your sins. This way of speaking arises from baptism being the visible seal of remission. IMO baptism is far more than that.
Calling on the name of the Lord—rather, “having called,” that is, after having done so, referring to the confession of Christ which preceded baptism, as Acts 8: 37.
On the way to Damascus Jesus our Lord appeared to Saul of Tarsus (Paul), rendered him sightless and told him to go into the city where it would be told him what he must do. Mailmandan argues that he received the gospel at that time and therefore Paul was saved because in the mailmandan’s mind, believing is synonymous with being saved. Yet after three days of praying and fasting Paul was still in his sin, unsaved, as demonstrated by Ananias’ statement in Acts 22: 16. Then mailmandan discovers that “calling” on the names of the Lord would have been better translated “having called”, and he tries to make an argument from that, to no avail. After three days of “having called”, Paul was still in his sin, unsaved. Interesting that Jamieson-Fausset-Brown, who mailmandan quotes, refer the “having called” to the confession preceding baptism.
IMO, I feel sure that Paul did receive the gospel that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and arose on the third day and that he did believe yet was still in his sin. However, not only must we believe the gospel, we must obey the gospel (2 Thess. 1: 8, 9); Paul had not yet obeyed the gospel. The idea that we are saved the moment we believe is a fiction promulgated by Billy Graham, Charles Stanly, John MacArthur, CARM, Grace to You and a host of other “faith only” people. The Scriptures tell us that when we receive Christ by believing in His name we are begotten by God. (John 1: 12, 13) We are not saved, we have not been born again, but we are given the right to become children of God through baptism and the new birth. (Gal. 3: 26, 27; John 3: 3-5) The word is implanted in the heart of the believer. (James 1: 21) We have received Christ but we have not been baptized into Christ nor have we been clothed with Christ. IMO this was the status us Paul before Ananias came to him. Ananias asked Paul, why are you delaying, having arisen be baptized and wash away your sins, having called on the name of the Lord. In baptism our sins are washed away. Why? Because of the water? No, because in baptism are faith is deemed acceptable, and god sprinkles are hearts and conscience clean with the blood of Christ. In baptism we appeal to God for a good conscience which he has promised those who obey through faith, we call upon the name of the Lord. God bless

Michael47 · Aug 11, 2015

Should we do good works or not?

Works vs. Works

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