Works vs. Works

mailmandan · Sep 30, 2015

Yes we should. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Good works are what we are saved FOR but not by. Works salvationists put the cart before the horse.

plaintalk · Oct 1, 2015

The Moment Of Faith
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, [SUP]13 [/SUP]who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1; 12, 13)
These verses state that when we received Jesus by believing in His name, we were born, (hoi egennêthêsan). First aorist passive indicative of gennaô, to beget, "who were begotten." (Robertson’s NT Word Pictures) begotten by God. W. E. Vine, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, BEGET, pg 109, confirms that gennao in the passive voice means beget. We are begotten by God, and are given the right to become children of God, but we are not children of God at that moment. If we are not children of God neither have we received the Spirit (Gal. 4: 6); and if we have not received the Spirit we do not yet belong to Him. (Rom. 8: 9)
Many believe that at the first moment of faith, God makes us children of God, gives us the Holy Spirit and saves us. We acknowledge that all of those things are by faith but we do not agree that they are received at the first moment of faith. And those of us who accept the Scriptures, know that saving faith is not one dimensional, merely believing. According to the Scriptures, faith without love is nothing, meaningless (1 Cor. 13: 2) and that faith works through love and hope, love being the greatest factor. (1 Cor. 13: 13; Gal. 5: 6) Also according to the Scriptures, faith without works (of faith) is dead and useless. (James 2: 17, 20) And those of us who accept the Scriptures, know that there are other works of faith that occur before salvation and lead us to salvation. These works of faith include calling on the name of the Lord (Acts 2: 21), repentance (Acts 11: 18; 2 Cor. 7: 10) baptism (Mark 16: 16; 1 Pet. 3: 21), confessing His name (Rom. 10: 10) the obedience of faith (Heb. 9: 5), the washing of regeneration (Titus 3: 5) These are the works which work with our faith, perfecting our faith, so that we may truly say, the righteous shall live by faith. (James 2: 20- 24; Heb. 10: 38)
How then do we become children of God? [SUP]26 [/SUP]For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. We have believed and are begotten by God, but are not yet children of God. Verse 27 tells us that those who are baptized into Christ have clothed ourselves with Christ and His attributes. His attributes are many and they include life and righteousness and sonship. He is the Son of God, when He is put on in baptism, we also become the adopted children of God. Some have argued that verse 26 is a complete thought and has nothing to do with verse 27. This is simply not true as verse 27 opens with the preposition, “for,” which connects it to the preceding thought. We must remember that these people are “spinners”, supporting their own agenda. God bless.

plaintalk · Oct 1, 2015

Acts 2: 38
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2: 38) NASB
Is this verse improperly translated? Should it reads as follows:
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Peter said to them, “Repent, for the forgiveness of your sins, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2: 38)
Based on the pleurality of “Repent” and “forgiveness” at first blush it well might have been translated in that manner, but when we consider the contributory relationship between baptism and forgiveness of sin has been established in a number of verses, the translation of the NASB is quite appropriate.
(1) Acts 22: 16 And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and washed away your sins, calling on His name.
(2) Eph. 1: 7 In Him we have redemption, through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses. We are baptized into Christ, thus baptism becomes instrumental in forgiveness.
(3) Col. 1: 14 In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, Again. We are baptized into Christ.
(4) Rom. 6: 7 We are freed from sin when we die metaphorically in baptism. (Rom. 6: 6)
(5) Rom. 6: 17, 18 We are freed from our sins when we obey that form of teaching ---death, burial and resurrection—encountered when we are baptized into Christ. (Rom 6: 3- 6)
(6) Eph. 5: 26 The church is cleansed by the washing with water under the auspices of the word
(7) Titus 3: 5 He saved us by the washing of regeneration, we do not save ourselves.
(8) Heb. 10: 22 and our bodies are washed with pure water as our hearts are sprinkled clean with the blood of Christ.
Thus the NASB translation is appropriate because both repentance and baptism contribute to the forgiveness of sins. God bless.

mailmandan · Oct 2, 2015

plaintalk said:

Mere "mental assent" belief in the existence and historical facts about Christ (no different than the belief of demons) joined with trust and reliance in "water and works" for salvation is not saving faith in Christ, even for a moment. You have the wrong kind of faith.

Amen! Those who receive Him are given the right to become (which means they actually do become) children of God, those who believe in His name.

It's a real shame that you refuse to accept this crystal clear truth for the sake of your agenda.

As AT Robertson points out - Here it is more the notion of privilege or right. To become (genesqai). Second aorist middle of ginomai, to become what they were not before.

We most certainly are children of God at that moment, but since you don't truly believe in His name you don't understand. Let's test your theory of believe in His name but are still not a child of God "still lost." 1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. So how can one believe in His name and know they have eternal life when they are not yet a child of God? *Your argument is bogus! John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned. Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. Acts 16:31 - Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Believe = saved child of God. It truly amazes me to see how easily you disregard the truth for the sake of your agenda.

Children of God during this dispensation have all received the Holy Spirit at the very moment they placed their faith in Christ for salvation/believed the gospel (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 16:31; Ephesians 1:13). Prior to Jesus being glorified, believers did not yet receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (John 7:38-39) but were still saved because they BELIEVE in Him (Luke 1:12; John 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26 etc..).

Genuine believers believe this and know this to be true. Unbelievers/works salvationists don't believe this because they don't understand what saving faith in Christ is and remain blinded by the god of this world and spiritually discerned because they don't believe the gospel and have not received the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 4:3,4; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

You still don't understand the difference between accomplishing an act of obedience/a work by "out of faith" (that is already established in Christ) and receiving Christ by or through faith. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation (and not in our works), we are saved by or through faith. Good works accomplished afterwards are done by or "out of" faith, but we are not saved by these works, as you erroneously believe.

So you call believing "merely believing" as if believing just isn't enough? What is the object of our belief/faith? Christ and His finished work of redemption, so what you are really saying is that what Christ accomplished to save us isn't enough and we must add our works to His finished work of redemption is order to help Him save us. It is tragic that human PRIDE will not allow such people to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

I already explained this to you. We are saved through faith in Christ and then our faith works through love BECAUSE we are saved, not to become saved. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:6). If we have faith then we have hope. Paul is simply stressing the importance of love and is not teaching that there are Christians out there (including himself) who speak with the tongues of men and angels and have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and knowledge and have faith that can move mountains and bestow all of their goods to feed the poor and give their bodies to be burned but won't be saved because they don't have love. He is simply making the point that without love it profits nothing. Love is the greatest quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do. We won't need faith and hope in heaven. Try getting to heaven through love apart from faith. What kind of love would that be? Not agape love that God has poured out only into the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit who was given to them - Romans 5:5.

I have explained this to you numerous times. James DOES NOT teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to give evidence to his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. James 2:18 - I will show you my faith by my works. SHOW, not establish. Big difference!

Calling on the name of the Lord is what we do when we come to faith in Christ and are saved. Notice "whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" and "saved through faith" - Ephesians 2:8. If calling on the name of the Lord is something that we do "after" we place our faith in Christ for salvation and are saved through faith, then we are not really saved through faith, in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8.

I already explained to you numerous times that repentance is a change of mind which "precedes" saving faith in Christ. *Notice the order.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

The very HEART of your problem here is that you understood faith as nothing more than "mental assent" belief in the existence and historical facts about Christ then repentance follows and is understood as moral "self-reformation." In regards to faith, those in the churches of Christ fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing/trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ for eternal life, and you cannot distinguish between mere "mental assent" belief and faith that trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Your church will cite that "even the devils believe" (from James 2:19) in their sermons and will contend that even the "faith of devils" is the same as any other faith "except" that the faith of devils lacks good works. The fact that you cannot grasp this DEEPER faith which trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works."

Why did you bother to separate calling on the name of the Lord in "your so called list of works for salvation" from baptism when you erroneously teach that calling on the name of the Lord "is" baptism? As I already explained to you in Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

As I already explained to you. Notice in Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. It's not believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead today then confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord next week and are finally saved next week.

Hebrews 9:5 says - and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail. You quoted the wrong verse. The obedience of or to the faith does not mean salvation by obedience/works that follow faith. Although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of coming to faith in Christ as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as “obeying the gospel” (Romans 10:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to Christ. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR or UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR or UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). In Romans 1:5, Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience after faith. We have access by FAITH into GRACE… (Romans 5:2) not faith "and obedience." We are saved through faith FIRST, then "unto" obedience (good works).

This refers to spiritual washing/purification of the soul that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. The Holy Spirit accomplishes this work, not man.

These are not additional requirements that we must accomplish after faith in order to be saved by works, as you erroneously teach. James 2:22 - Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved in Genesis 22 based on his works or that we are not saved through faith until we accomplish a check list of works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness BEFORE he offered up Isaac on the altar (Romans 4:2-3).

Notice the period. Through faith in Christ Jesus. Period. If Paul meant to say that we become sons of God through baptism then he would have clearly stated through faith in Christ Jesus and baptism, but that is not what Paul said.

Those who have believed are begotten by God AND ARE CHILDREN OF GOD - John 1:12. You don't understand because you DON'T BELIEVE.

It's you who is the "spinner," supporting your own agenda. As I already explained to you in verse 27 - For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

The Greek word for "put on" is "enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification."

How does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because he becomes a "child of God" through baptism? NO. Is Paul saying that we are children of God by baptism as much as children of God by faith? NO.

"Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof" (Romans 13:12,14). This exhortation written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if we must "put on" Christ to be saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Romans 13:14). Right? Let’s be consistent.

"Put off," wrote Paul, "the old man," and "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"(Ephesians 4:22,24); And, "put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil" (Ephesians 6:11).

The allusion is to putting off old clothes and putting on new ones, to enclosing oneself in armor, etc. When a soldier puts on armor he is imitating his superiors and trainers, is revealing himself to be a soldier.

One does not put on a uniform in order to become a soldier. Simply putting on a soldier's uniform does not make one a soldier. One is made a soldier by training, instruction, and experience. Once he is made a soldier he is then able to wear the uniform that distinguishes or marks him as a soldier.

Putting on a judge's robe does not, in itself, make anyone a "judge." But, one who has been made a judge is qualified to put on "judicial robes" and thus declare his qualifications.

So too with being baptized, the Christian puts on robes for which he has previously been qualified to wear. The putting on of Christ (putting on Christian attire) is not what makes one a Christian, but one which becomes a token of it.

If one puts on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian (child of God through faith), then he becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what he is not.

Verse 26 is complete in telling us how one becomes a child of God and that is THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS. Period. Baptism is not included in verse 26 and verse 27 does not tell us how to become a child of God but explains that those who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ just as Romans 13:14 tells believers to put on the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is simply true. Quit trying to distort verse 26. Verse 27 does not connect with verse 26 on how to become a child of God, but unfortunately, you are too blind to see the difference.

That statement is the epitome of irony. You are the "master spin doctor." I will continue to pray that you will come to repent and believe the gospel and then the blinders will finally be removed (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) and you will be able to see the truth clearly. Continue to seek for the truth and God bless.

mailmandan · Oct 2, 2015

plaintalk said:

Acts 2:38 is not improperly translated, just improperly interpreted by works salvationists, like yourself and Roman Catholics and Mormons.

Baptism is "in regards to/on the basis of" the forgiveness of sins which is received through repentance/faith and is not in order to obtain the forgiveness of sins. As we see in Matthew 3:11 - I baptize you with water "for" repentance.. (NASB) Is this baptism for "in order to obtain" repentance or for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance? The answer is obvious.

In Luke 24:47 we read - ..repentance and remission of sins.. *What happened to baptism? In Acts 3:19 we read - Repent and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out.. *What happened to baptism? Now for the umpteenth time, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony* Compare Acts 10:45 - the gift of the Holy Spirit with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit. When was the Holy Spirit received? When they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism (Acts 11:17). Verse 18 - repentance unto life. Acts 10:47 - "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT just as we have?" *The truth is crystal clear yet you refuse to see it for the sake of your agenda.

Both of the leading clauses are not identical, for the first clause, "repent ye," is second person plural, while the second clause, "each one of you be baptized," is third person singular. There is a change of both person and number between the verbs and pronouns in these two clauses.

Now, when we look at the prepositional phrase, "for the remission or YOUR sins," the pronoun “your” is second person plural. An important distinction is thus made and one that helps us understand this passage.

The effect of this change from second person plural to third person singular, and then back again, shows that the phrase connects directly with the command to “repent.” Essentially what you have is - “You (plural) repent for the forgiveness of your (plural) sins, and let each one (singular) of you be baptized (singular).” Or, “You all repent for the forgiveness of all of your sins, and let each one of you be baptized.”

Penitent faith, not water baptism, is essential for pardon. This is clearly seen in Peter’s very next sermon, where he exhorts —“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out.” (Acts 3: 19)

Notice how Peter says nothing about water baptism in his extending to the people the terms of pardon. If water baptism is necessary for pardon, then why did Peter not include it in Acts 3:19? If water baptism is essential for pardon, then why did Peter say nothing about this also in Acts 10:43?

“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”

A simple parenthesis helps us to understand what Acts 2:38 is really saying, “Then Peter said unto them, Repent (and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of your sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

Does Acts 2:38 prove baptismal remission? No, it doesn’t even support it as part of a cumulative case. — E. Calvin Beisner

As I already explained to you, in Acts 9, the Savior told Ananias that Paul "is a chosen vessel unto Me" (v. 15), although the apostle had not yet been baptized. Before Paul was baptized, Christ had already commissioned him to "bear [His] name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15); such a commission is not God’s portion for one still lost and under divine wrath. Before Paul’s baptism, Christ had set him aside as one who would "suffer for His name’s sake" (9:16). Can one who is a child of the devil, as all the lost are (Ephesians 2:1-3, John 8:44), really suffer for Christ’s sake? NO. God accepted Paul’s prayers before his baptism (Acts 9:11). People in the church of Christ teach that God does not hear an unsaved man's prayer, quoting in this regard John 9:31 - "We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will." Well, Paul was a worshipper of God, calling Christ "Lord" and then setting out to do His will. All of these things characterized Paul before he was baptized. So, Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was water baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism.

No Scripture is to be interpretated in isololation from the totality of Scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa. For instance, if we find a verse that "on the surface" seems to teach that baptism is required for salvation or that we are saved by works, but then have multiple other verses that teach otherwise, are we to allow the odd verse to alter the clear meaning of the many? NO. The "washing away of sin" in water baptism is only "formal" or symbolic, as Alexander Campbell had said in the McCalla debate. It did not refer to the washing of the soul. This occurred earlier when Paul came to faith in Christ. Water baptism brought no change to the heart and mind of Paul. All inner change had already occurred prior to his water baptism. The Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, properly translated means "having called" on the name of the Lord. Paul’s calling on Christ’s name for salvation preceded his water baptism. It is absurd to think that Paul had not yet called upon the name of the Lord and that water baptism is all the same as calling on the name of the Lord.

Redemption is THROUGH HIS BLOOD, not through water baptism. Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The phrase "baptized into Christ" really keeps you confused into believing that we are water baptized into the body of Christ, yet we are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). Notice the phrase "baptized into Moses" in 1 Corinthians 10:2. Do you believe that the Israelites were literally water baptized into the body of Moses? Of course not! First, we have already seen that Paul often used "baptism" as a symbol for identification. Second, the verb in Greek translated "put on" has the meaning of putting on a badge or uniform of service like that of a soldier. As explained by A.T. Robertson:

This verb is common in the sense of putting on garments (literally and metaphorically as here). See further in Paul (Romans 13:14; Colossians 3:9f; Ephesians 4:22-24, 6:11, 14). In I Thessalonians 5:8 Paul speaks of "putting on the breastplate of righteousness." He does not here mean that one enters into Christ and so is saved by means of baptism after the teaching of the mystery religions, but just the opposite. We are justified by faith in Christ, not by circumcision or by baptism. But baptism was the public profession and pledge, the soldier's sacramentum, oath of fealty to Christ, taking one's stand with Christ, the symbolic picture of the change wrought by faith already (Romans 6:4-6). So faith in Christ (implied in genuine repentance) "rather than water baptism" is instrumental in receiving the forgiveness of sins (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 10:43; 26:18).

Same response I gave to (2) Eph. 1:7 In Him we have redemption, through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses "baptized into Christ" applies here.

Water baptism is the PICTURE, not the reality.

Obey that form of teaching is not salvation by water baptism. You continue to confuse the picture with the reality. You also confuse being baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13) with being baptized into or unto Christ in regards to identification, as with being baptized into Moses. We obey that form of teaching when we obey the gospel (Romans 10:16) by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16). Our sins are freed/hearts are purified through faith, not water baptism (Acts 15:9)

Notice washing with water by the word. Water is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3). So it's not by plain ordinary H20 but by the word. As we have seen elsewhere the water that cleanses (believers/the Church/the body of Christ) on the inside. John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.

John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 7:37 - On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit..

No we don't save ourselves by works of righteousness which we have done, including water baptism. The washing of regeneration refers to spiritual washing/purification of the soul accomplished by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. Internal washing.

Hebrews 10:22 does not say "our bodies are washed with pure water as our hearts are sprinkled clean with the blood of Christ." You changed the words to make it imply that our hearts are sprinkled clean with the blood of Christ at the moment our bodies are washed with pure water/getting water baptized. *You continue to change the words of Scripture in order to make it fit your agenda. Hebrews 10:22 in the NASB reads - let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. *Notice the order. Reference to this verse as proving regeneration, or the new birth, by water baptism ignores the point of the contrasting of that sprinkling which affects the heart, removing from it an evil conscience, and that washing of the body with pure water. It is the sprinkling (with the Blood of Christ- Hebrews 9:14; I Peter 1:2) which touches the heart. The washing of pure water affects the body. Paul was careful to distinguish between an outward holiness or circumcision, which was of the flesh (Romans 2:28-29) and an inward holiness, which was of the heart. The true Jew, the true child of Abraham (and therefore the true Christian) has the inward circumcision of the heart, not only the outward, and this is accomplished by the "sprinkling of the blood of Christ" (I Peter 1:2), not by a washing in water in the ordinance of water baptism. Even Peter said - "not the removal of the dirt from the flesh" but the answer of a good conscience toward God. Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21). The writer of Hebrews shows us that no outward ceremony affects the heart (Hebrews 9:13ff.). He would not, and does not contradict himself here by teaching that the washing of the body in water accomplishes an inward cleansing. The former is inward and spiritual, "of the heart" (Romans 2:28-29), and the latter is outward and physical, or "of the flesh" (Romans 2:28-29). The washing of the body in pure water does not present baptism as the means of the cleansing or purifying of the heart. The sprinkling with the Blood of Christ is, and washing our bodies with water is expressly distinguished from sprinkling with the Blood of Christ. Since water baptism is not the means of purifying the heart from sin, it is not the means of regeneration, and it is not absolutely necessary for salvation. As long as you continue to confuse the symbol with the reality, you will continue to remain confused, continue to trust in "water and works" as the means of your salvation and remain in UNBELIEF. All I can do is continue to pray for you. Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth but you must be willing to repent and believe the gospel. Continue to seek for the truth and God bless.

know1 · Oct 10, 2015

mailmandan said:

The word “believe” whether it be in scripture or not, is anaction word, or verb, describing an action of some sort. Believing isnot passive, but active.
2Co4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, Ibelieved, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and thereforespeak;
Noticethe action that follows the believing? This is faith in action.Believing with corresponding action to what you believe.
Sowhen the bible says, “to as many as believeon the name of Jesus shall be saved”, and in Paul's epistle, hesays, “we are saved through faith, and not of works”, it shouldbe obvious that the two are referring to the same said salvation. Onesays believe and you will be save and the other say we are savedthrough faith. So the two are using two different words but havingthe same result. Only, James and Paul tell us that faith works withcorresponding action and without works it is dead. So we would haveto conclude that the believing Jesus used, requires correspondingaction.

mailmandan said:

Jas2:14 What dothitprofit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have notworks? can faith savehim?
Jas2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be yewarmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those thingswhich are needful to the body; what dothitprofit?
Jas2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Can faith alone save, heal,deliver, preserve, or be/make whole?
The Greek word translated,“save” is sozo, and it doesn't just mean saved, but all the otherthings listed above as well.
Jame is asking if merebelieving without corresponding works or works of faith, will savethem, or get them healed, or delivered them, or make them whole. Theimplied answer is a resounding, no. For he says, “Even sofaith, if it hath not [corresponding] works, is dead,being alone.
IfJames says, “faith is dead being alone”, then it's dead, acorpse, lifeless, useless, powerless, without effect, and the like.Anyone who says different, simply cannot receive the truth of theword, for it is very plainly written.
Jamesclearly teaches that works must accompany faith, or it isdead.

mailmandan said:

Jamescompares mere believing, where there are no corresponding works, asthe demons that believe there is one God.
Demonscannot have faith for they cannot receive the truth of God's word,for faith comes by hearing the word of God. And Jesus said theycannot receive truth because they are not of God.

Sosalvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptizedor condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required forsalvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses?(3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONErequirementthat Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these completestatements? BELIEVES.*Whathappened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. [/QUOTE]
Youknow what else isn't mentioned in those verses along with baptism?
Repentance.
Again, the believingmentioned cannot be passive, but active.
I don't know what kind ofrepentance you believe one must have to come to Christ, but if it hasto do with repenting from evil works, then you have it wrong. If ithas to do with repenting from doubting in Christ, to believing andreceiving Him in faith, then you have it correct.

mailmandan said:

Paulis showing how words of faith works in Romans 10.
I believe in my heart andtherefore speak. That's it in a nut shell.
And yes, it is one step,not weeks later that you confess. But notice this. The confessionlined up with what they believed. The confession must correspond tothe believing.
What good would it do, if aperson believed in God and confessed how they gave to the poor?
Neither does giving to thepoor or any other good work, prove or cause one to be saved. It hasnothing to do with believing in Christ as your personal savior.
When a person confesseswhat they believe about Christ, then salvation ismade.

mailmandan said:

Notaccording to James.
You are teaching somethingthat directly conflicts with scripture.
James says it wasn't untilafter Abraham offered up Isaac that it was imputed tohim for righteousness, NOT BEFORE.
For it is written,
Jas2:23Andthe scripture was fulfilledwhich saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him forrighteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas2:24 Ye see then how that byworks a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Pleasenote that scripture was not FULFILLED, saying thatAbraham was declared righteousness or justified, until afterhe offered up Isaac, and not before. James makethat very clear here.
Aperson cannot receive Christ and the new birth apart fromcorresponding works to their faith. Remember, faith alone cannot saveanyone. For it is dead.
Thisis clearly written all through scripture. Over and over again.
Idon't know why you people continue to post you beliefs on thisthread, because it is more than obvious that no one understands whatworks of faith are.
Ifyou fail to see the connection between faith and corresponding works,when that is how you receive Christ in your heart, to be born again,then you just don't know what faith is or how it works. Which alsosays, you don't have signs following. You can't have a sign withoutthe work.
Idon't know how many time I have repeated the same statements, andstill to this day, no one seems to understand that works of faith arenot the same as good works or works of the law, such as that which iswritten in Eph 2: 8-9.
Again,Peter at the gate Beautiful. What specifically is Peter's faith in?
Jesushealing the impotent man, right?
Peterbelieves in the name of Jesus and the man was expecting something ofPeter. So now Peter acts on what he believes in his heart. First,he boldly says what he believes. “In the name of Jesus, rise upand walk,”. Second, he physically grabs the man's hand and pullshim to his feet, before he saw any signs of healing, fullyexpecting God to instantly restore the man's feet and ankles. Peter'swords and actions corresponded to his faith. Those twothings that Peter did are what James calls works of faith or simply,works.
It'sjust that simple.

know1 · Oct 10, 2015

mailmandan said:

The word “believe” whether it be in scripture or not, is an action word, or verb, describing an action of some sort. Believing is not passive, but active.
2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
Notice the action that follows the believing? This is faith in action. Believing with corresponding action to what you believe.
So when the bible says, “to as many as believe on the name of Jesus shall be saved”, and in Paul's epistle, he says, “we are saved through faith, and not of works”, it should be obvious that the two are referring to the same said salvation. One says believe and you will be save and the other say we are saved through faith. So the two are using two different words but having the same result. Only, James and Paul tell us that faith works with corresponding action and without works it is dead. So we would have to conclude that the believing Jesus used, requires corresponding action.

mailmandan said:

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Can faith alone save, heal, deliver, preserve, or be/make whole?
The Greek word translated, “save” is sozo, and it doesn't just mean saved, but all the other things listed above as well.
Jame is asking if mere believing without corresponding works or works of faith, will save them, or get them healed, or delivered them, or make them whole. The implied answer is a resounding, no. For he says, “Even so faith, if it hath not [corresponding] works, is dead, being alone.
If James says, “faith is dead being alone”, then it's dead, a corpse, lifeless, useless, powerless, without effect, and the like. Anyone who says different, simply cannot receive the truth of the word, for it is very plainly written.
James clearly teaches that works must accompany faith, or it is dead.

mailmandan said:

James compares mere believing, where there are no corresponding works, as the demons that believe there is one God.
Demons cannot have faith for they cannot receive the truth of God's word, for faith comes by hearing the word of God. And Jesus said they cannot receive truth because they are not of God.

So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. [/QUOTE]
You know what else isn't mentioned in those verses along with baptism?
Repentance.
Again, the believing mentioned cannot be passive, but active.
I don't know what kind of repentance you believe one must have to come to Christ, but if it has to do with repenting from evil works, then you have it wrong. If it has to do with repenting from doubting in Christ, to believing and receiving Him in faith, then you have it correct.

mailmandan said:

Paul is showing how words of faith works in Romans 10.
I believe in my heart and therefore speak. That's it in a nut shell.
And yes, it is one step, not weeks later that you confess. But notice this. The confession lined up with what they believed. The confession must correspond to the believing.
What good would it do, if a person believed in God and confessed how they gave to the poor?
Neither does giving to the poor or any other good work, prove or cause one to be saved. It has nothing to do with believing in Christ as your personal savior.
When a person confesses what they believe about Christ, then salvation is made.

mailmandan said:

Not according to James.
You are teaching something that directly conflicts with scripture.
James says it wasn't until after Abraham offered up Isaac that it was imputed to him for righteousness, NOT BEFORE.
For it is written,
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Please note that scripture was not FULFILLED, saying that Abraham was declared righteousness or justified, until after he offered up Isaac, and not before. James make that very clear here.
A person cannot receive Christ and the new birth apart from corresponding works to their faith. Remember, faith alone cannot save anyone. For it is dead.
This is clearly written all through scripture. Over and over again.
I don't know why you people continue to post you beliefs on this thread, because it is more than obvious that no one understands what works of faith are.
If you fail to see the connection between faith and corresponding works, when that is how you receive Christ in your heart, to be born again, then you just don't know what faith is or how it works. Which also says, you don't have signs following. You can't have a sign without the work.
I don't know how many time I have repeated the same statements, and still to this day, no one seems to understand that works of faith are not the same as good works or works of the law, such as that which is written in Eph 2: 8-9.
Again, Peter at the gate Beautiful. What specifically is Peter's faith in?
Jesus healing the impotent man, right?
Peter believes in the name of Jesus and the man was expecting something of Peter. So now Peter acts on what he believes in his heart. First, he boldly says what he believes. “In the name of Jesus, rise up and walk,”. Second, he physically grabs the man's hand and pulls him to his feet, before he saw any signs of healing, fully expecting God to instantly restore the man's feet and ankles. Peter's words and actions corresponded to his faith. Those two things that Peter did are what James calls works of faith or simply, works.
It's just that simple.

Jackson123 · Oct 10, 2015

know1 said:

You know what else isn't mentioned in those verses along with baptism?
Repentance.
Again, the believing mentioned cannot be passive, but active.
I don't know what kind of repentance you believe one must have to come to Christ, but if it has to do with repenting from evil works, then you have it wrong. If it has to do with repenting from doubting in Christ, to believing and receiving Him in faith, then you have it correct.

Paul is showing how words of faith works in Romans 10.
I believe in my heart and therefore speak. That's it in a nut shell.
And yes, it is one step, not weeks later that you confess. But notice this. The confession lined up with what they believed. The confession must correspond to the believing.
What good would it do, if a person believed in God and confessed how they gave to the poor?
Neither does giving to the poor or any other good work, prove or cause one to be saved. It has nothing to do with believing in Christ as your personal savior.
When a person confesses what they believe about Christ, then salvation is made.

Not according to James.
You are teaching something that directly conflicts with scripture.
James says it wasn't until after Abraham offered up Isaac that it was imputed to him for righteousness, NOT BEFORE.
For it is written,
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Please note that scripture was not FULFILLED, saying that Abraham was declared righteousness or justified, until after he offered up Isaac, and not before. James make that very clear here.
A person cannot receive Christ and the new birth apart from corresponding works to their faith. Remember, faith alone cannot save anyone. For it is dead.
This is clearly written all through scripture. Over and over again.
I don't know why you people continue to post you beliefs on this thread, because it is more than obvious that no one understands what works of faith are.
If you fail to see the connection between faith and corresponding works, when that is how you receive Christ in your heart, to be born again, then you just don't know what faith is or how it works. Which also says, you don't have signs following. You can't have a sign without the work.
I don't know how many time I have repeated the same statements, and still to this day, no one seems to understand that works of faith are not the same as good works or works of the law, such as that which is written in Eph 2: 8-9.
Again, Peter at the gate Beautiful. What specifically is Peter's faith in?
Jesus healing the impotent man, right?
Peter believes in the name of Jesus and the man was expecting something of Peter. So now Peter acts on what he believes in his heart. First, he boldly says what he believes. “In the name of Jesus, rise up and walk,”. Second, he physically grabs the man's hand and pulls him to his feet, before he saw any signs of healing, fully expecting God to instantly restore the man's feet and ankles. Peter's words and actions corresponded to his faith. Those two things that Peter did are what James calls works of faith or simply, works.
It's just that simple.[/QUOTE]

Abraham never offered up Isaac. Please read the story.

Abraham demonstrate faith to the Lord. And He save because his Faith, not his offering.

Salvation by grace through faith In Jesus.

Yes when you have faith in Jesus, and Holy Spirit in you, it will bear fruit, and the fruit is Love/good work.

The fruit is not cause salvation but salvation cause us to bear fruit.

Salvation cause by grace throug faith in Jesus.

MarcR · Oct 10, 2015

plaintalk said:

Your question reflects a very different perspective than my own; but, I like your tone and your style of debate.

Your civility is much appreciated and is thankfully becoming less rare around here.

know1 · Oct 10, 2015

Jackson123 said:

Not according to James.
You are teaching something that directly conflicts with scripture.
James says it wasn't until after Abraham offered up Isaac that it was imputed to him for righteousness, NOT BEFORE.
For it is written,
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Please note that scripture was not FULFILLED, saying that Abraham was declared righteousness or justified, until after he offered up Isaac, and not before. James make that very clear here.

Abraham never offered up Isaac. Please read the story.

Abraham demonstrate faith to the Lord. And He save because his Faith, not his offering.

Salvation by grace through faith In Jesus.

Yes when you have faith in Jesus, and Holy Spirit in you, it will bear fruit, and the fruit is Love/good work.

The fruit is not cause salvation but salvation cause us to bear fruit.

Salvation cause by grace throug faith in Jesus.

I did, and it still says he offered Isaac his son on the alter.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jackson123 · Oct 10, 2015

know1 said:

If you read the real story, Abraham not kill Isaac as offering sacrifices

when people make offering sacrifices in the old testament, they kill the offering or burn it in the story of Cain, in Genesis.

What Abraham did is Trust/have a faith in God and follow the instruction.

And the instruction is don't kill you son/ don't use you son as offering.

If you read contextually, What Abraham did is act of Faith. not really offer/kill Isaac.

mailmandan · Oct 10, 2015

know1 said:

The corresponding action is works and demonstrates that of our belief/faith is genuine. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)." The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent (James 2:19) or also include trust and reliance in Christ for salvation (Acts 16:31). The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief/faith does (to one degree or the other) result in actions appropriate to the belief (all Christians are fruitful, though not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith. Faith is faith and works are works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit would demonstrate that there is no root.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. James gives us the test for genuine faith: like the faith of Abraham, it results in works. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine saving faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Works must accompany faith in order to DEMONSTRATE that it is not dead, but our faith is made alive in Christ by grace through faith BEFORE we produce good works (Ephesians 2:5-10). We are saved FOR good works, NOT by good works. You seem to have this backwards.

Again, the word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. I believe "mental assent" that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I am not trusting in Him to save my soul. See the difference? Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith is a completely trusts in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Repentance actually precedes believing in Him and receiving eternal life so it does not need to be specifically mentioned in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 because it already took place when we changed our mind and chose to believe in Him and receive eternal life. Water baptism FOLLOWS believing in Him and receiving eternal life so it needs to be mentioned in order to prove that we must be water baptized in order to be saved. Otherwise, these verses in John are a lie. Believing is not baptism and believing is established before water baptism. Those who believe and are saved have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe in Him.

When we repent unto salvation, we change our mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is believing in Him/receiving Christ through faith.

As I already explained. In Romans 10:8 - But what does itsay? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth,confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together.

Not according to Paul. You are teaching something that directly conflicts with scripture. Read Romans 4:2-3 again.

No, that is not what James is saying. In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the alter and demonstrated the reality of his faith in Genesis 22. In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous". The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Once again, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith in Genesis 15:6 (also see Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the alter and demonstrated the reality of his faith in Genesis 22.

We are not saved by works but FOR good works. One cannot produce corresponding works apart from receiving Christ through faith and the new birth. You have this backwards. Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation saves, then the works follow. James is talking about faith that claims to be genuine but "remains alone" in producing works and demonstrates that it's dead. Genuine faith results in producing works.

All throughout scripture we see that faith is faith and works are works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates that there is no root. People error by teaching that we are saved through faith AND works and that faith "is" works.

Works of faith "works produced out of faith" are good works, which cannot be dissected from the moral aspect of the law.

Are you trying to imply that Peter was still lost until he acted on his faith in this situation and the man was healed? Was Peter saved by this works or did this work give evidence to Peter's faith that was already established?

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5) yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). It's just that simple. This is the balance that you seem to have OUT OF BALANCE.

MarcR · Oct 10, 2015

In South America, there are rope suspension bridges that don't look very sturdy; but, in fact are.

Belief= credence says I believe that bridge will hold me; but I am not inclined to test it.

Belief=faith = I drive my jeep across it.

The belief is not an action but if true faith it will be acted on.

Jackson123 · Oct 10, 2015

John 15

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

if require work before salvation than no body save

we can not bear fruit/doing good work before abide/save

ember · Oct 10, 2015

know1 said:

No. the Bible clearly states that Abrahams FAITH was accounted to him as righteousness acceptable to God

4Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring[SUP]d[/SUP] be.”

6Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15

no works...just faith

BarlyGurl · Oct 10, 2015

MarcR said:

faith in operation can be terrifying initially!!! That is regarding rope bridges <eek!> and also often times the Christian walk... at an assortment of junctures as we go along...

KennethC · Oct 10, 2015

know1 said:

This was God testing Abraham's faith, and because Abraham's faith was true he did as God commanded.

By doing as God commanded and proving his faith true God gave a ram to substitute for his son, so that Abraham would not have to sacrifice his son. This is also a picture of what God was going to do by sacrificing His Own Son for us !!!

seed_time_harvest · Oct 10, 2015

plaintalk said:

Then the only thing it could be is that either you are not reading the responses by mailmanDan or you don't believe that scripture harmonizes scripture

and the reason I say that Is because the points you made that were put under a microscope (so to speak) were refuted with scripture and you don't seem to notice it,

it seems as if you disregard it,and reiterate points that you have already made and already been refuted and clearly harmonized with scripture which clarified that salvation is by Faith in CHRIST alone and not Faith plus works.

Why do you do that?

Jackson123 · Oct 11, 2015

NO BODY able doing good work before accept Jesus/abide to the vine.

Mean salvation is not by doing good work.

Good work is produce by Holy Spirit in us.

In order Holy Spirit stay in us, we must save/invite Jesus to be the Boss of our Life.

To say work first than save is up side down.

It is not scripture said.

Jesus said it is impossible for the branch to bear fruit/good work by itself.

Branch must abide to the vine, then branch will bear the fruit. Branch is not producer, vine is.

Branch is only distributor, that is why branch will not bear the fruit by itself.

Jackson123 · Oct 11, 2015

nothing wrong to do water baptism, But water baptism not save you.

Jesus save you and if you abide in Him, you will bear the fruit.

What is the fruit?

The fruit is love/good job.

water baptism is one of the fruit. Water baptism is declaration/testimony that we are in Christ.

It is part of love, to declare we love other and ready to help other.

Ready to love other is Love. so if one need help they know that we ready to do what ever we can.

But if one don't have time and die before baptism,like a thief on the cross, he goes to parades, because baptism is only one of the fruit, it is product of salvation not cause of salvation.

Works vs. Works

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