Works vs. Works

JaumeJ · Aug 11, 2015

On the subject of the OP title:

Eph 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Obeying God is sthe least of these good wrks we are permitted and taught to do...........so many deny obedience in favor of license claiming to be living in grace. This is not of the Holy Spirit.

plaintalk · Aug 11, 2015

Mailmandan
Is baptism a work of faith, a labor of love, and the obedience of faith? (1Thess 1: 3; 2 Thess. 1: 11; Acts 6: 7; Rom. 1: 5; 16: 26) Some claim that baptism is a work of righteousness. If I understand them correctly, they are saying that baptism is a good work which we do to be obedient to God. However, IMO, this is contrary to the Scriptures. The Scriptures show us that a work of righteousness is response of man performed to thereby be righteous before God. The works of the law are works of righteousness (Gal. 3: 12) and they are not of faith. On the other hand, works of faith are performed to “perfect” or complete our faith. Works of faith are by definition “of faith” and they are compatible with Eph. 2: 8, 9 and any other passage that enjoins faithfulness.
The conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch is interesting to us because it not only relates the particulars of that conversion, but it shows clearly that baptism is a work of faith. Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch and the eunuch, seeing water, responded by asking what hindered him from being baptized. And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. (Acts 8: 37, 38) Faith is a prerequisite. By faith the eunuch was baptized into Christ. Baptism is a work of faith. In Christ we have redemption, the forgiveness of sin. (Col. 1: 14) By faith we are baptized into Christ, becoming children of God; by faith we are baptized into Christ and clothed with all the attributes of Christ which include life, sonship and righteousness. (Gal. 3; 26, 27)
How do we become children of God? When we are by faith baptized into Christ we are immersed in both water and the Holy Spirit. As we come forth from this baptismal experience we are born of both water and the Spirit. (John 3: 5) God bless.

mailmandan · Aug 11, 2015

plaintalk said:

I see that you are still under the delusion that somehow you are going to convince me to "withdraw" my faith from trusting EXCLUSIVELY in Christ for salvation and placing it in "water and works" as a supplemental means to my salvation, but I assure you that is NEVER going to happen. Cornelius was saved the same way that we are all saved - by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Cornelius believed, received the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues and was saved BEFORE he was water baptized (Acts 10:43-47). Plain and simple.

We are saved when we believe the gospel (Romans 1:16). We also receive the Holy Spirit when we believe the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). Cornelius and his household believed the gospel and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism. Acts 10:47 - "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" Lost unbelievers/children of the devil do not receive the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31). Trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation constitutes believing on Him/on the Lord Jesus Christ and this was established BEFORE water baptism.

Yes BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

For the third time, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. These Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed/repentance unto life BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11;17,18). Scripture must harmonize with Scripture or else you have a contradiction, like you do with your interpretation of Acts 2:38.

Acts10:44 says "the Spirit FELL upon them". Acts 10:47 says "they RECEIVED the Holy Spirit". Acts 11:17; 15:8,9 says God gave them the SAME gift of the Spirit as He had the disciples after believing.Acts 11:15 says the Spirit fell upon them just as He had upon the disciples at the beginning.

What act of obedience causes us to receive the Holy Spirit? Choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" You seem to write a blank check with the word "obey" and fill in "water and works" but you end up perverting the gospel. Only genuine believers receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So do lost children of the devil receive the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues or do children of God?

The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this "change of mind." Where salvation is in view, repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ and is not a totally separate act from faith. It is actually the same coin with two sides. Repentance is on one side, what you change your mind about and faith in Christ is on the positive side; the new direction of this change of mind. In Luke 13:3, Jesus challenged the people's notion that they were morally superior to those who suffered in such catastrophes. He called all to repent or perish. For some people though, prior to coming to the end result of repentance in receiving salvation (faith in Christ), they must change their minds about other specific things in order to get there. Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about his previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God (see 1 Thessalonians 1:9). On the other hand, faith in Christ, is the new direction that change about God must ultimately take, namely, trusting in Christ alone for salvation.

AFTER they repent/believe the gospel and are saved.

Believers receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and are saved BEFORE water baptism. Believers are born of water "LIVING WATER" and not plain ordinary H20. Go back and read John 4:10,14; 7:37-38 and notice the words drink, water, living water, Spirit and also notice in 1 Corinthians 12:13 - ..drink into one Spirit. Your argument falls in line with the heretical Roman Catholic teaching of baptismal regeneration.

And the water is LIVING WATER and not plain ordinary H20. Your faith is clearly in "water baptism and other works" to save you and is not exclusively in Christ alone for salvation. You are not a believer.

No exceptional case in Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9. You are twisting the Scriptures in order to accommodate your CoC doctrine. Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel. I am praying for you.

mailmandan · Aug 11, 2015

plaintalk said:

You just contradicted Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes.. Yet YOU say "believes" but still in sin. This is where you pervert the gospel by "adding works" to it. Paul explains why people don't believe the gospel - 2 Corinthians 4:3,4.

Did Paul say believe + something else in Romans 1:16? NO. So why are you adding to what Paul said?

Paul obeyed the gospel when he chose to believe the gospel. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" The gospel is not "water baptized or condemned." You are teaching a "different" gospel. Refusing to obey the gospel (Romans 10:16; 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9) is refusing to believe the gospel. Are you ready to obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel? You must first repent of your false gospel that you are teaching.

We are saved the moment that we believe (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13;39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..). You have been deceived by your church which is full of "works salvation" people. What a genuine believer means by salvation through faith IN CHRIST ALONE and what James means by "faith only" is not the same message. Don't let the word "alone" fool you. James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14-18), not genuine faith that is evidenced by works. When you hear a genuine believer say that we are saved through "faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST alone," they are not saying that we are saved by the "kind" of faith that "remains alone" - barren of works (James 2:14-24). Saving faith results in producing good works, so it's not alone in that sense but it's still faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation part of the equation that "alone" saves you as the instrumental means. Good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of our faith, but they are not the instrumental means by which we receive salvation as well. The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith in "Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith IN CHRIST alone (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Simple! *Notice how I harmonize Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion.

More false doctrine from the CoC. You have perverted John 1:12 to support your salvation through faith "plus works" theology. John 1:12 teaches that we actually DO BECOME children of God through believing. *The same message is found in Galatians 3:26 - For you ARE ALL the CHILDREN OF GOD through FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS (period). NOTHING there about belief simply giving them the right to become children of God but they don't actually become children of God until later, after they accomplish a check list of works. Since you confuse water baptism with Spirit baptism and don't understand that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality and you also confuse plain ordinary H20 with living water, you will remain confused about Galatians 3:26,27 and John 3:3-5 and force these verses to teach salvation by water baptism, just as Roman Catholics and Mormons do as well. Until you repent and believe the gospel, the blinders will remain and you will not be able to see the truth clearly. Been there, done that, but now I believe. When will you believe? I will continue to pray for you.

mailmandan · Aug 11, 2015

Michael47 said:

Absolutely!

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Good works are what we are saved FOR, but not by - Ephesians 2:8-10.

mailmandan · Aug 11, 2015

plaintalk said:

Regardless of whether you call baptism a work of faith, a labor of love, obedience of faith or a work of righteousness, baptism is still a WORK and we are not saved by works. Period. By the way, none of these verses that you quoted here teach salvation through faith + obedience/works. More misinterpretation of Scripture, compliments of the CoC. In Matthew 3:15, what did Jesus say to John in regards to baptizing Him? - "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Baptism is a good work/work of righteousness that is done out of faith. Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple. Paul made it clear that we are not saved by works (Ephesians 2:9); not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5); He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9). You can slice and dice works into multiple categories and give them whatever label you wish all you want and try to erroneously teach that we are saved by THESE works, just not THOSE works, but Paul NEVER said that we are saved by works of any kind. WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, NOT WORKS. It's time for you to quit fighting the truth and believe the gospel. Your salvation depends on it. I am praying for you.

BarlyGurl · Aug 11, 2015

know1 said:

Good works cannot save, nor do they get prayers answered, nor do they get people healed, not can they deliver, but faith in action or works of faith, can and do all of the above mentioned.
When Peter walked on the water after Jesus bit him to come out on the water with Him, the action Peter took was a work of faith and not the fruit of the Spirit or a good work.
When Peter said to the man with the impotent feet, "In the name of Jesus Christ rise up and walk and then took the man by the hand and pulled him up, and his feet and ankles immediately received strength, that was a specific act or work of faith that not only spoke or said that he believed God would heal the impotent man, but proved his faith in God, the name of Jesus, and the promises of His word, when he took the man's hand and pulled him to his feet. Without the actions of Peter's faith, the man would not have been able to get healed. Peter's faith was specific and directed. It was towards that man's healing. That action that Peter took with the speaking and acting, IS A WORK OF FAITH.
Everything else that everyone is talking about has to do with obedience to the commandments of God, the fruit of the Spirit, good works, works of the flesh, or works of the law. All of these kind of works are general works. Again, works or acts of faith are directed at something or some situation, specifically. Works/acts of faith, which include speaking of things which be not as though they were, or what they believe in their heart, comes from believing the word or promises of God. Peter knew and acted on the promise that Jesus had given him, that he had power to heal in the name of Jesus. Peter acted on that word just like he did when Jesus told him to come out on the water. That action he took concerning the man's healing was not a good work that says he a child of God or born again. It was his faith WITH his works.
What you have written in James is merely a good work, not a work of faith. James was using that as an illustration of faith without corresponding action or works is useless. Specifically, an act that was directed at the area in need.
Please look at the example given concerning Peter healing the man at the gate and reply to what kind of action it was that he took. Was it a good work or a work of the law mentioned in Eph 2:8-9?
What kind of work was it?

This is an exceptional thread Know1... part of the problem I can see with some people being able to receive it is "cessationism"... overcoming that stronghold.

BarlyGurl · Aug 11, 2015

know1 said:

You specifically mean.... religious ordinance law... correct?

I sometimes refer to God's faith promises as spiritual laws... does that harmonize with your intent?

plaintalk · Aug 12, 2015

No, I am under no delusion about you. I, reply, hopefully for the benefit of others. God bless.

plaintalk · Aug 13, 2015

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Ephesians 2: 8- 10) NASB
There are at least two hypotheses about the phrase, “not as a result of works.” 1. Some hold that the phrase means, “salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not of works of any kind, including baptism.” This is the view of Dr. Kenneth Wuerst to which mailmandan subscribes. 2. Others, including myself, hold that the phrase means, “salvation is by grace through faith and not of works of which we may boast, including works of righteous and works of the law.” This view incorporates the next phrase combining the two.
To decide which hypothesis is correct, we need to test them with other scriptures. We ask ourselves are there other factors, other than faith, that are said to save or lead to eternal life. A search of the scriptures shows that “calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 2: 21; Rom. 10: 13), “repentance” (2 Cor. 7: 10), “baptism” (1 Pet. 3: 21; Mark 16: 16), “washing of regeneration” (Titus 3: 5), “obedience” (Heb. 5: 9), “confession of the name of Christ” (Rom. 10: 9, 10; Matt. 10: 32, 33), “love” (James 1: 12; 1 John 3: 14) and “hope” (Rom 8: 24) all save or lead to eternal life. By the same token, a search of the scriptures shows that “works of righteousness” (Titus 3: 5) and “ works of the law” (Rom. 3: 20; Gal. 2: 16) do not save or justify.
Conclusion: Obviously the first hypothesis is incorrect and the second hypothesis is consistent with the Scriptures. Mailmandan spends his time making posts to “muddy the waters”, suggesting that “calling on the name of the Lord” and “obedience” are merely faith and that “repentance”, changing your mind is merely a part of faith and precedes faith and of course diminishing the other factors, especially baptism. God bless.

JaumeJ · Aug 13, 2015

Please post all of the teaching, before and after in the Scripture. Out faith by grace leads us to good works unto God.......God bless all in Jesus Christ.

JaumeJ said:

mailmandan · Aug 13, 2015

plaintalk said:

Amen! Saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works.

Did Paul say faith and baptism in Ephesians 2:8? NO. So why are you "adding" it to the equation of salvation through faith? Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith. Not hard to understand, just hard for you to ACCEPT.

I subscribe to the truth and not to salvation by works, as you do.

So where did Paul mention these works in Ephesians 2:8 that YOU "add" to the equation? We are saved by grace through faith - "apart from additions or modifications." NOT OF WORKS.

Calling on the name of the name is not an additional requirement to become saved after faith. When you call upon the name of the Lord you trust in him to come to your aid. Inherent in your calling upon that someone is the essential faith that he can and will save you. So, in essence, to call on the name of the Lord unto salvation is to call upon Him in complete trust for Him to save you.

Repentance is a "change of mind" that precedes saving faith in Christ. It's not an additional requirement to become save after we place our faith in Christ for salvation. Those who have placed their faith in Christ for salvation have already repented and those who truly repent - "new direction of this change of mind" - place their faith in Christ for salvation.

It's not the mechanical act of getting water baptized that literally saves us - not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). We could paraphrase Peter's statement by saying, "Baptism now saves you--not the outward physical ceremony of baptism but the inward spiritual reality which baptism represents." The symbol and the reality are so closely related that the symbol is sometimes used to refer to the reality and that seems to be what is confusing you. A FLOOD OF CONFUSION. Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

Once again, in Mark 16:16 - "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned." The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism?

The washing of regeneration is spiritual washing/purification of the soul that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. This is not accomplished by plain ordinary H20 (heretical teaching of baptismal regeneration) but by LIVING WATER.

So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

In regards to Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. (This here is a descriptive, not a prescriptive passage of Scripture). Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him alone for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:16; 10:9; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). We don't love Him in order to become saved, but because we are saved. Romans 5:5 - Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. Romans 8:24 does not teach that if our faith is genuine, but we don't have enough hope, we won't be saved. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - 1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. Without the clear and certain promises of the Word of God that salvation is through faith in Christ and we can KNOW that we have eternal life (1 John 5:13), the believer would have no hope. Genuine hope is another aspect of faith, not an additional requirement to become saved after faith. If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for... (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

Works in general do not save or justify in a legal sense.

The first hypothesis is correct and the second hypothesis which stems from Campbellism is incorrect.

plain talk continues making posts that distort and pervert passages of Scripture in an effort to "patch together" his so called gospel plan. His watered down works based false gospel is a "different" gospel that cannot save. Are you ready to repent and believe the gospel plain talk? I hope and pray that you are and God bless.

know1 · Aug 14, 2015

BarlyGurl said:

That is correct ma'am. God's word or promises establish all known laws, for it is by his word that all things consist.

plaintalk · Sep 29, 2015

to MarcR:
For me the question is, "Are there works of faith that save or lead to salvation?" Please consider.
calling on the name of the Lord saves- Acts 2: 21
confessing Jesus is Lord- Rom. 10:9, 10
repentance- 2 Cor. 7: 10; Acts 11: 18
baptism- Mark 16: 16; 1 Peter 3: 21
obedience- Heb. 5: 9; Matt. 7: 21
washing of regeneration- Titus 3: 5
God bless

plaintalk · Sep 29, 2015

The angel of the Lord told Abraham who was about to obey by offering his son, "for now I know that you fear God." Obedience is the test of faith. Faith is perfected when we obey. (James 2: 20- 24) God bless.

plaintalk · Sep 29, 2015

to eternally-grateful:
On the contrary, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you , both to will and to work for His good pleasure." (Philip. 2: 12, 13)
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord", will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Matt. 7: 21)
And having been made perfect, he became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5: 9)
God bless

MarcR · Sep 29, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

The word sanctification: kiddush in the Hebrew and agiasmos in the Greek, speaks of taking a person, animal, or thing of the World; and preparing it for God's use.

In Num Chapter 28, the meat (meal) offering and the drink offering, which accompanied each animal sacrifice, were the kiddush which sanctified the offering. Jesus explained their significance when, at the last supper, he said of them: "This is My body and this is My blood".

In a post-Pentecost walk of faith, the taking of communion is symbolic of the final work of sanctification which took place on the cross.

plaintalk · Sep 29, 2015

Calling on the name of the Lord
[SUP]21 [/SUP]‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ (Acts 2: 21) NASB
“Calling on the name of the name is not an additional requirement to become saved after faith. When you call upon the name of the Lord you trust in him to come to your aid. Inherent in your calling upon that someone is the essential faith that he can and will save you. So, in essence, to call on the name of the Lord unto salvation is to call upon Him in complete trust for Him to save you.” mailmandan, Christian Chat, Works vs works, # 132
According to the Scriptures, does calling on the name of the Lord have to do with coming to faith or with baptism? [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’ (Acts 22: 16) NASB Was Paul a believer before this statement by Ananias was made? IMO Paul became a believer when the Lord appeared to him three days prior. If that is true, calling on the name of the Lord had nothing to do with coming to faith but it had everything to do with being baptized. Mailmandan resorts to a little funny business by arguing that this verse should read, “Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, having called on His name.” If what the mailmandan says is true, it did not work for Paul because after three says of praying and fasting, Paul was still in his sin, unforgiven, unsaved.
What was Paul asking God to do by being baptized? [SUP]21 [/SUP]Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Peter 3: 21) NASB Baptism is an appeal to God to give the appellant a good conscience by the forgiveness of their sins according to the promises of God. Where is the promise made? [SUP]38 [/SUP]Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2: 38) NASB
According to the Scriptures, does calling on the name of the Lord follow coming to faith? [SUP]14 [/SUP]How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? (Rom. 10: 14) NASB The question by Paul indicates that one must believe in order to call upon the name of the Lord. Common sense tells us that you would not call on the name of the Lord if you did not already believe in Him.
Why does the mailmandan need to make calling on the name of the Lord simultaneous with coming to faith? Unfortunately he, like so many others, have been deceived by the “faith only” doctrine. If calling on the name of the Lord saves, then the “faith only” doctrine is repudiated. God bless.

seed_time_harvest · Sep 29, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

The thing is brother Dave is in order for me to reply to your post it's going to look like I am a OSAS person and that's not my belief although I would be a OSAS believer if it weren't for certain scriptures.

I believe the spirit is saved and sealed and sin can't cause you to lose your salvation
But if you remain alive and in the body on this planet(sanctification) then sin can eventually affect you in the mind and cause you to think carnally to the point you can become insensitive to the HOLY SPIRIT and possibly become reprobate.

IMO this would happen over a period of time(a process).

Don't Nash your teeth at me but that's what I believe.

So the spirit is saved and sealed but if you remain alive in the body and don't renew your mind I believe becoming reprobate is the only way you can be rejected otherwise you are saved and sealed.

Forgive me everyone I now understand OSAS and I believe it.

mailmandan · Sep 30, 2015

plaintalk said:

Amen! Unfortunately, I see that you still refuse to accept the truth because you are unable to see anything beyond your church of Christ indoctrination.

If calling on the name of the Lord has everything to do with being baptized and nothing to do with faith, then salvation is not really through faith, in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8 (and several other verses), but is through works which follow faith (in contradiction to Scripture), yet salvation based on works certainly tickles your ears and feeds your pride. Once again the Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, properly translated means "having called" on the name of the Lord. Paul’s calling on Christ's name for salvation preceded his water baptism. It is absurd to think that Paul had not yet called upon the name of the Lord and that water baptism is all the same as calling on the name of the Lord.

Just as these Gentiles in (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18) who believed in Him, received remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit and even spoke in tongues were still in their sins, unforgiven, unsaved BEFORE water baptism? Yeah right! I already shared with you in post #102 when Paul was saved. In Acts 9, prior to being water baptized, Paul had already repented, believed and submitted to Christ as Lord. In Acts 9, the Savior told Ananias that Paul "is a chosen vessel unto me" (v. 15), although the apostle had not yet been baptized. Before Paul was baptized, Christ had already commissioned him to "bear [His] name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15); such a commission is not God’s portion for one still lost and under divine wrath. Before Paul’s baptism, Christ had set him aside as one who would "suffer for His name’s sake" (9:16). Can one who is a child of the devil, as all the lost are (Ephesians 2:1-3, John 8:44), really suffer for Christ’s sake? NO. God accepted Paul’s prayers before his baptism (Acts 9:11). People in the church of Christ teach that God does not hear an unsaved man's prayer, quoting in this regard John 9:31 - "We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will." Well, Paul was a worshipper of God, calling Christ "Lord" and then setting out to do His will. All of these things characterized Paul before he was baptized. So, Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was water baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism. In Acts 9, the Savior told Ananias that Paul "is a chosen vessel unto me" (v. 15), although the apostle had not yet been baptized. Before Paul was baptized, Christ had already commissioned him to "bear His name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15); such a commission is not God’s portion for one still lost and under divine wrath. Before Paul’s baptism, Christ had set him aside as one who would "suffer for His name’s sake" (9:16). Can one who is a child of the devil, as all the lost are (Ephesians 2:1-3, John 8:44), really suffer for Christ’s sake? NO. God accepted Paul’s prayers before his baptism (Acts 9:11). People in the church of Christ teach that God does not hear an unsaved man's prayer, quoting in this regard John 9:31 - "We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will." Well, Paul was a worshipper of God, calling Christ "Lord" and then setting out to do His will. All of these things characterized Paul before he was baptized. So, Paul heard and believed in Christ prior to getting water baptized. Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was water baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism. *Acts 26:18 - To open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. *What happened to baptism?

As I already explained to you in post #102, the genitive in the Greek text is correctly translated as the pledge of a good conscience, not for a good conscience. It is a pledge made from a good conscience. Baptism is a pledge to God made from a good conscience. It is that aspect (what is signified, “the answer of a good conscience toward God”) rather than the external rite (the sign, the application of water) that saves. The symbol and the reality are closely related and the symbol is sometimes used to refer to the reality and that seems to be what is confusing you. A FLOOD OF CONFUSION. By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself. So in 1 Peter 3:21; it's not the water itself that saves us, but the "appeal-to-God-for-good-conscience". Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

As I already explained to you numerous times, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony*

If it does, then we are not really saved through faith in Christ, as the Scriptures teach, but through works which follow faith, in contradiction to Scripture. You don't seem to mind contradictions in Scripture as long as your biased church doctrine is upheld.

Common sense tells us that we must first believe in the existence and historical facts about Christ before we can call upon Him and receive Him through faith by believing the gospel. Yet since you believe that all belief/faith is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot grasp this DEEPER belief/faith which trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation, you remain confused.

Because we are saved through faith and not by works which follow faith. When you call upon the Lord to save you it is that you trust in him to come to your aid. Inherent in your calling upon the name of the Lord is the essential faith that He can and will save you. If calling on the name of the Lord is an additional requirement to become saved after faith, then we are not really saved through faith, but through works which follow faith. This is what you cannot seem to grasp.

Unfortunately, you have been deceived by the church of Christ into believing that salvation is by "water and works" instead of by grace through faith. The "faith only" per James = empty profession of faith, dead faith (James 2:14-18). This is not the kind of faith that I teach saves. James is not teaching that we are saved "by" works, as you teach. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! Too simple! But you insist on making it difficult. So when you hear a genuine believer say that we are saved by "faith alone," they are not saying that we are saved by the "kind" of faith that remains alone - "barren of works." Saving faith results in producing good works, so it's not alone in that sense but it's still faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ part of the equation that "alone" saves you as the instrumental means. Good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of our faith, but they are not the instrumental means by which we receive salvation as well. The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith IN CHRIST alone conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.* Unfortunately, you are unable to grasp this truth because of your UNBELIEF. What a genuine believer means by salvation through "faith (in Christ) alone" (saved through faith, not works) and what James means by "faith only" (empty profession of faith/dead faith) is NOT the same message. Don't let the word "alone" fool you.

There is no repudiation of salvation through faith IN CHRIST alone (Ephesians 2:8,9) which does not equate to "faith only" (empty profession of faith/dead faith) - per James (James 2:14-24). If those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved and we are saved through faith, then the "salvation by works which follow faith" doctrine (your doctrine) is repudiated. Why don't you call on the name of the Lord right now and ask Him to save you. In order for you to do this, you will need to let go of your works and take hold of Christ through faith. Human pride stands in the way of you choosing to repent and believe the gospel. Please prayerfully consider the truth and God bless. I will continue to pray for you.

Works vs. Works

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BarlyGurl

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