Big problem with daughter

sunburn · Jul 22, 2014

Jen9 said:

Jen…you are telling us that you are someone who is solely concerned about herself all the time.
It's all about you.
I do hope your interaction in this forum helped you realise that you do need to address your own issues. I do not condone the choices your daughter has made, but I have learned with my own daughter that showing her that I can be strict without condemning her or demeaning her, or pretend I am better than her, helped our relationship.

the hardest thing for a parent is to accept that your child has his own character, a mind on his own, their own choice in life and those choices are not going to be always what we planned for them.

You do need to change otherwise you might find yourself spending your old years….all alone.

Dan58 · Jul 22, 2014

Esanta said:

Well, my point was that in the parable the father let the son go out on his own. Love is not giving a young man or woman support so they can sin, its caring enough to encourage them to do the right thing. You expect the mother to accept everything the daughter is doing unconditionally, but in my opinion, embracing all her bad decisions is tantamount to encouraging her to do the wrong thing. I do agree that a parent should not withdraw their love, but that doesn't mean putting your stamp of approval on everything their children do. "For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth" (Proverbs 3:12 & Hebrews 12:6). A parent who never says "No" is not displaying love, they're saying "I don't care". jmo

Esanta · Jul 22, 2014

Dan58 said:

I really don't understand the argument you're making. The mother doesn't have to approve of whatever her daughter is doing to simply allow her freedom to make her own choices and to have affection and love for her when she makes wrong ones. To be brutally honest, the mother has absolutely no say in the choices the daughter makes so her approval or disapproval is frankly irrelevant. Her daughter is her own being and will do as she does, regardless of the mother.

The question the mother has to ask herself is, will she finally put her own expectations aside and simply emotionally and psychologically support her daughter, or will she break their relationship off and exile her daughter from her life because her daughter doesn't live the way she demands.

The prodigal son's father did the former, and accepted his son's decisions, always having boundless unconditional affection for him, regardless of his mistakes, both before and after the son made them.

The mother here is not doing that. Until she does, the daughter will not respect her enough to listen to her advice. It's fairly simple. The mother puts expectation before unconditional love, and the daughter says 'not good enough'.

presidente · Jul 22, 2014

Dan58 said:

There may be cases where it is appropriate to temporary cut ties with a child if the child goes his or her own way. I mentioned the church discipline issue. What I disagree strongly with is closing the door for reconciliation. It's very much out of step with what we learn from the parable of the prodigal son. That teaches us the nature of the heavenly Father, but it also contains lessons for parents.

In this case, there will be a baby, and it isn't the baby's fault.

I'd also like to add, since the topic was brought up elsewhere on the thread (not directly in response to you) that if someone doesn't like children, he or she needs to learn to like children. Jesus said to let the children come to Him, for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Apparently, He liked children, and we are to be confirmed to the image of Christ.

Esanta · Jul 22, 2014

Esanta said:

I'd like to add to this post, by saying that if you can love a person, even when they go against everything you believe, even when they make you an enemy, even if they hate you, then your compassion alone speaks for itself. Numerous occasions show this to be true.

When Jesus forgave the Roman Soldier, the soldier felt a deep sorrow and said 'truly, this man is the son of God'.

When the prodigal son's father allowed him to leave, never berating him, never mocking, judging or disowning him, the son spent all his worth, indulged in all manner of things and came back to neigh a warning nor an 'I told you so', but in fact his father slaughtered a lamb for him and made total amends. The father's compassion won out, as it always will.

The Samaritan, hated by the Jews, saw a Jew lying in the road and helped him out of selfless compassion, thus he taught the Jew something about compassion. In this instance, Jesus also taught the crowd about how it is better to be a compassionate outsider than a pompous man of 'right-faith'.

The examples of this kind of compassion, given even when there is no apparent 'reward' as we think of rewards, are everywhere, and not just in Christianity or in Judaism but in Hinduism, Buddhism and many other religions. It is always shown that it is favourable to be a compassionate outsider than a harsh zealot.

secularhermit · Jul 22, 2014

Hi, Jen!

I´m sorry you have to live it out but:

1) Please, respect your husband decision to visit her (and his grandson). Do not spoil your own relationship because He also has the right to make his own choices.
2) Try to accept that, as long as she lives, she is your daughter, the way you are please or upset HER being.
3) It´s up to you accpeting a newborn (one who is innocent, INNOCENT, of all your family issues).

I hope that baby grows healthy, loving, as Christians as any holy man you think he could be but, at the end of his days, that baby is going to be the one he wnated to be, no matter what you have planned for your daughter or "unwanted" grandson. There´s a free will you are ignoring... For your sake? These are individuals!!!

I have a teen daughter also, here are her last grades, I saw yesterday:

I texted her yesterday telling her "she needs" to improve them, otherwise, her college will be underachieved and will end up on the line of the losers (I often show my children as the best example I know)

and she replied:

"¡Ah, pues! ¡Déjame quieta! A mí nadie me ayuda ni me explica. Yo hago mis cosas sola... Esa es mi nota ¿De qué te quejas?"

I´m happy she is spirited, not a boot licker; though I´m her dad and there are a couple of things I want to talk personally and she is only 13.

I have taught her as much as I could and she is growing to be outgoing, but has little respect for me (not a deal) what is she going to be in 10 years from now?

She knows I´m like you but, when she gets in trouble, big ones, wetaher I like it or not, she is my daughter and she seems to learn thing the HARD way (somewhat stuborn).

My mother, who was suppose to spend a month with her on vacations, this afternoon wrote to me: "I don´t like Joy´s attitude... She thinks she deserves all. She is hard to be pleased and She is unwilling to help on daily chores (the place they are on vacations) and she´s only interested in uploading pictures on FB and chatting with her friends... I don´t plan to take her out anymore".

Do you see? My mom is also unhappy and, she is not responsible for her, except me, who needs to talk to her and, the moment she gets pregnant, I´m not the one who plans to take care of her children but, i also could be in the same predicament of being a graddad without my wish. Will I pay attention of an unwanted children?

time will tell and, as long I am her dad, I owe love her (but I´m not an alcahuete: She needs to pay her share of everything she does wrong)

Dan58 · Jul 22, 2014

Esanta said:

I'm not making an argument per se, just expressing my opinion. I'm not suggesting that the mom break-off communication or not be open to reconciliation, nor do I think she should ignore her coming grandchild. To the contrary, I feel she should maintain a relationship with her daughter and lower her expectations.

But several here have suggested that the mother should apologize and beg her daughters forgiveness. They've also suggested that she should forgive her unconditionally and support her daughter. Its these things I don't agree with, especially those who blame the mom for the daughters choices, saying its all her fault. While an over-bearing parent can drive their kids away, I don't think they can be blamed for a rebellious 20 year old's actions. There's comes a point when this young lady (daughter) needs to grow-up and take a little responsibility herself, just as the prodigal's son did.

Simona25 · Jul 22, 2014

Dan58,

I think you are wise in trying to understand the mother and have a little sympathy for her too.

Esanta · Jul 22, 2014

Dan58 said:

The young lady is very much old enough to make her own decisions. If her mother has issue with that, tough. If she can't forgive her daughter, can't love her, can't give her affection above expectation, then she doesn't deserve a relationship with her.

Nobody's 'blaming' the mother. The daughter has her own mind, but the mother seems to completely disregard that fact and insist her daughter bow to her will. Recognizing that the daughter has probably gotten very sick of her mother's attitude in this respect, always demanding she live her life in certain ways rather than have compassion for her, is simply something the daughter responded negatively to, as would any rational human being.

We humans despise demands from those we love when they would abandon us if we do not obey them.

You seem to confuse 'condone' and 'support'. 'Support' does not require condoning, it requires being compassionate rather than condemning.

biscuit · Jul 22, 2014

While an over-bearing parent can drive their kids away, I don't think they can be blamed for a rebellious 20 year old's actions. There's comes a point when this young lady (daughter) needs to grow-up and take a little responsibility herself, just as the prodigal's son did.

Bingo !!! We are chatting about a full-grown woman and not some 14 year old girl. Until the daughter shows her parents respect and accept responsibility & accountability for actions, the help should be negotiated. If not, expect the erratic behavior to continue.. I am just surprised to see many posters are putting the pressure on the mother for a rebellious child who is disrespecting the parents.

Esanta · Jul 22, 2014

To be supportive is to be 'there' for her daughter, regardless of whatever decisions she makes. Her mother does not need to like her decisions, and of course she may advise as any good mother would, but to threaten abandonment is extreme, insufferable and unhelpful.

Besides, is having a child before marriage so bad that she deserves to be cast out and condemned? I mean, seriously, that's extremely harsh parenting, authoritarian in fact, and it is proven that authoritarian parenting does not work, unless of course you go back to days when asking old pops to give her a slap wasn't frowned upon, cause then she'd have no choice in the matter. Authoritarian parenting does not breed respect, it does not encourage listening, good communication or the formation of mutually acceptable boundaries, instead it causes resentment, anger and leads to a refusal to co-operate.

What the mother needs to understand is that if she ever wants a healthy relationship with her daughter, she needs to recognize that the young woman is an adult and how she decides to live her life is entirely her own business. Her mother can be compassionate and civil, or demanding and unreasonable, it's really up to her.

Esanta · Jul 22, 2014

biscuit said:

Why would she ever show respect to a mother who prefers to cut off all ties with her adult, pregnant daughter and eventual grandchild instead of act like a mother and support in her troubles nomatter what the church congregation whisper about?

biscuit · Jul 22, 2014

Esanta said:

Sometimes cutting of ties are necessary to get a point across. Many rebellious children & adults believe they can "rain on" their parents' parade whenever they want to because of the parents' love. Parents are human also and should not become door mats to anyone. The cut off should be only temporary until a solid solution can be worked out. I would never take this kind of abuse from a 20 year old. And the only he or she would enter my house again would be after the hatchets are buried. It is these types of behavior of children or child that can destroy marriages and families. Again, I would give the daughter every opportunity to amend her behavior. At 20 I would not give her a free pass on anything. She would have to earn it. If she were to return home with the child, she would have to oblige to the parents' rules. If not, she would have to leave. The daughter's "freak show" could continue for a prolonged period of time until the parents decide to put a stop to it.

Esanta · Jul 22, 2014

There is not a single shred of probability that disowning your daughter will somehow undo a pregnancy and that she'll go to college, get a high-fluting job and it'll all be dandy. More than likely she'll be left without a family support system, eternally enraged at her mother's reaction and raise a child in less than ideal circumstances.

You can't undo what's already done and to expect her daughter to do so is unthinkable. This isn't a case of the mother begging her daughter not to get pregnant, she already is pregnant.

The question is what happens now?

A friend of mine grew up in a Catholic household with strict value systems like this one. Her parents were always pushing her to be this, that and the other, but rarely was she ever asked what she wanted. She was given affection, of course, but the more prominent recollections she has are times when her parents berated her for 'not doing it right', for making mistakes, for being 'unruly', for exploring and learning her own limits. And those are the recollections that stuck with her.

She made some choices after moving out, and her mother practically disowned her for them. Now, she told me quite plainly that if she had been guided into making good choices, knowing her family were there for her nomatter what choice she made, rather than dragged up and forced into a mould, she probably would have ended up making the choices her mother wanted her to make, simply because her advice would have been given under totally accepting circumstances, and she would have always known that her mother would be there for her nomatter what choices she made.

She would have respected her mother's method of teaching enough to listen to her content.

It is like the teacher who shouts when you make a boo-boo. You never respect that teacher, because they do not respect your status as a fallible human being. Why should anybody respect a person who berates them for making mistakes?

Similarly, the mother here is supposed to be the mature, adult, wiser party here. How can a daughter respect a mother who is not willing to give much more patience than she receives to a person who is supposedly less wise, thus less patient, thus less respectful? A mother must teach her child respect by actively showing it, not by shouting 'respect me' into the child's ear or ignoring the child if it makes a mistake, or berating it for doing wrong, or worst of all abandoning it for being fallible.

It is how the world works. Older people are supposed to be our role models, but when those very people idealize their own perfection so much that they refuse to allow us to make mistakes and form our own views, how can we ever truly say 'these people are understanding and wise'? 'These people deserve our respect'? 'These people are people we should learn from'?

This child knows her mother made her feel bad by doing what she's done. Why would she respect that? Why would she ever want to emulate that - to make someone else feel bad for making mistakes? It is not pleasant to receive it, so it is not sensible to give it. Thus her mother is not a good person to learn habits from.

So what will happen? She will search down her own path for better methods to live by.

biscuit · Jul 22, 2014

This child knows her mother made her feel bad by doing what she's done. Why would she respect that? Why would she ever want to emulate that - to make someone else feel bad for making mistakes? It is not pleasant to receive it, so it is not sensible to give it.

I would agree with everything you posted if the daughter was truly a child. esanta, she is 20 years old ... a full-grown woman !!!

Esanta · Jul 22, 2014

biscuit said:

I used the term 'child' in lieu of daughter, there. It wasn't to do with her age, more to do with her status as daughter.

But regardless of that, YES, she is a fully grown woman, who has decided her mother's demands do not have to be bowed to. Nor should they, nor will they. At 20, she is growing, learning, and still finding out who she is, but it seems clear to me that her mother's method of 'teaching' is no longer of any benefit nor use to her, nor is it pleasant, nor is it respectful, nor is it helpful. And so, why should the daughter bow to her mother's expectations? Why should she bow to her commands, as though the mother is the strict teacher and the young woman the powerless child in class?

Why should the daughter listen to the person who berates her for walking down her own path? Why should she respect the mother who disowns her for doing something outside the mother's own restrictions? Those restrictions are not the young woman's restrictions, she did not invent them, she did not learn them, she did not seek them out, nor accept them as her own, so, to demand she live by them is utterly useless, pointless and silly.

Either she is an adult whose decisions are her own business, or she is a child needing disowned and condemned and harshly guided, (as though any child needs disowned and condemned) :/

It can't be both ways.

biscuit · Jul 22, 2014

Either she is an adult whose decisions are her own business, or she is a child needing disowned and condemned and harshly guided, (as though any child needs disowned and condemned) :/

It can't be both ways.

They have a big job ahead of them.

Sirk · Jul 22, 2014

The brain is not fully developed in women until about 23 and in men at about 25. It is generally sometime after that when a person begins to remember and apply some of the lessons taught them as a child. For some..its is longer, never and maybe. There is a story in the bible that you may be familiar with about a prodigal son and it can be equally applied to a daughter....imo.

Esanta · Jul 22, 2014

biscuit said:

Agreed.

You know, my father is the perfect example of a man who, fair enough, is a fairly successful man, but who gives advice nobody wants to listen to. Do you know why nobody wants to listen to it? It is because he gets offended when you decide not to take it, because he isn't so much giving you advice as telling you how to live your life. He's not so much being a kindly, affectionate father who'll stand by you whatever adult choice you decide to make, as an adult, but he's more being a man telling you he's right and if you don't do it his way you'd best not even do it at all, or else.

So, safe to say I'm standing in this daughter's shoes, full on. Helpful advice given harshly is hurtful advice.

Esanta · Jul 22, 2014

Sirk said:

We dicussed it at length. See the earlier pages of the thread. The prodigal son situation differs tremendously from this one. In short, the prodigal son's father never disowned his son, among other important things.

Big problem with daughter

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