Can You Speak in Tongues?

[ember]

Yes, Sadly, cessationists, those who believe the Holy Spirit no longer operates as He did in the NT, believe that, as you say, the perfect is the completed Canon of scripture.

We do not know God as He knows us...so that makes that arguement totally irrelevant. Nonetheless, when your entire world would be turned upside down, it is very hard to accept what to many of us is obvious.

I do not believe that you must speak in tongues or evidence other gifts in order to be saved. The Bible does not indicate this.

Thanks

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes, Sadly, cessationists, those who believe the Holy Spirit no longer operates as He did in the NT, believe that, as you say, the perfect is the completed Canon of scripture.

We do not know God as He knows us...so that makes that arguement totally irrelevant. Nonetheless, when your entire world would be turned upside down, it is very hard to accept what to many of us is obvious.

I do not believe that you must speak in tongues or evidence other gifts in order to be saved. The Bible does not indicate this.

Thanks

Your right here as well as tongues are just one of the gifts, and the bible makes it clear that not all will be given the same gifts. Even Apostle Paul said I wish we all spoke in tongues, meaning not all will, but then goes and says he wishes more that we have the gift of prophecy. He looked at the gift of prophecy as higher then the gift of tongues.
We are all given gifts by the Spirit, but only as He sees fit and when it fulfills His will.
It is not a on the demand thing like some who do not believe in them try to make them out to be, by demanding others to show them the proof we can do these things. The bible says when you seek signs for proof then you are evil in mind.
That is another part I think people get confused on as the bible does not say it is wrong to look for the signs He said would take place for the end times, only that it is wrong to seek and ask for signs to prove He exists and His power/gifts is real.

 

[notuptome]

Yes, Sadly, cessationists, those who believe the Holy Spirit no longer operates as He did in the NT, believe that, as you say, the perfect is the completed Canon of scripture.

We do not know God as He knows us...so that makes that arguement totally irrelevant. Nonetheless, when your entire world would be turned upside down, it is very hard to accept what to many of us is obvious.

I do not believe that you must speak in tongues or evidence other gifts in order to be saved. The Bible does not indicate this.

Thanks

Partial truth but not complete truth. The Holy Spirit will not operate in conflict with the word of God.

The witness and testimony of the charismatic and Pentecostal movements testifies not of Christ.

What languages are spoken? No agreement among the speakers. Nothing in the present movement that even resembles what happened in the early church.

God removed three gifts and all you do is complain. Rejoice in what God still gives and grow up in the faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ember]

He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. Titus 1:9

Tongues (speaking) - The special ability God gives to some to speak prayer or praise in a language they have never learned or to communicate a message from God to His people. The special ability God gives to some to speak in a language not previously learned so unbelievers can hear God's message in their own language.

If a tongue is spoken without an interpretation, the speaker is edified. If the tongue is interpreted, it is for the edification of the body.

People with this gift:
- may receive a spontaneous message from God which is made known to His body through the gift of interpretation
- communicate a message given by God for the church (if there is someone to interpret)
- speak in a language they have never learned and do not understand
- worship the Lord with unknown words too deep for the mind to comprehend
- experience an intimacy with God which inspires them to serve and edify others
- speak in tongues as a private prayer language
- when used in a group setting, an interpretation must take place, or else the one speaking the tongue should remain silent.

(see also Tongues (interpreting) )

1 Corinthians 12:7-11
1 Corinthians 12:28-31
1 Corinthians 14:1-40
Acts 2:1-12
Acts 10:44-46
Acts 19:1-7
Mark 16:17
Romans 8:26-27
1 Corinthians 13:1

 

[ember]

I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; I Cor 14:18

I just thank God that I speak in tongues!

I can identify with Paul in the use of this gift...

 

[notuptome]

I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; I Cor 14:18

I just thank God that I speak in tongues!

I can identify with Paul in the use of this gift...

Paul being well educated and a Roman citizen educated in the classic Greek did speak more languages than most of his fellow disciples. I suspect Paul knew Hebrew, Greek, Latin and the common to the time Aramaic.

Now what tongue do you speak?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. Titus 1:9

Tongues (speaking) - The special ability God gives to some to speak prayer or praise in a language they have never learned or to communicate a message from God to His people. The special ability God gives to some to speak in a language not previously learned so unbelievers can hear God's message in their own language.

If a tongue is spoken without an interpretation, the speaker is edified. If the tongue is interpreted, it is for the edification of the body.

People with this gift:
- may receive a spontaneous message from God which is made known to His body through the gift of interpretation
- communicate a message given by God for the church (if there is someone to interpret)
- speak in a language they have never learned and do not understand
- worship the Lord with unknown words too deep for the mind to comprehend
- experience an intimacy with God which inspires them to serve and edify others
- speak in tongues as a private prayer language
- when used in a group setting, an interpretation must take place, or else the one speaking the tongue should remain silent.

(see also Tongues (interpreting) )

1 Corinthians 12:7-11
1 Corinthians 12:28-31
1 Corinthians 14:1-40
Acts 2:1-12
Acts 10:44-46
Acts 19:1-7
Mark 16:17
Romans 8:26-27
1 Corinthians 13:1

Please clarify are you referring to known languages?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

Partial truth but not complete truth. The Holy Spirit will not operate in conflict with the word of God.

The witness and testimony of the charismatic and Pentecostal movements testifies not of Christ.

I don't believe we should 'denominate' ourselves, but what you are saying isn't true. These words describe theological positions and there are churches that hold to these positions that are in these movements who preach faith and repentance through Jesus Christ, who win multitudes to Christ. And yes, there are many people who operate in spiritual gifts, both in and out of these movements, the same gifts described in the Bible.

I'm sure you can find individuals in these movements whose lives don't reflect Biblical Christianity. There are is a movement within the Charismatic movement that emphasizes greed, which is a bad thing, of course. But there is no pope over the whole Charismatic movement. It's a theological position and historical movement, like Fundamentalism. I could say you are a Fundamentalist and then say you are like the Westboro Baptists if I wanted to.

What languages are spoken? No agreement among the speakers.

Your objection is not a credible one according to what we read in I Corinthians. There is no indication that speakers in tongues could identify the name of their language.

God removed three gifts and all you do is complain. Rejoice in what God still gives and grow up in the faith.

Prophecy will remain at least until the two witnesses.

You are also taking a leap on your interpretation to say that these gifts will cease. YLT renders the text as follows.

8The love doth never fail; and whether [there be] prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless; 9for in part we know, and in part we prophecy; 10and when that which is perfect may come, then that which [is] in part shall become useless.

Your taking a leap to say that the whole gift of prophecy will be done away with. You are interpreting it that way instead of as Paul making a commentary on the limitations of prophecies, tongues, and knowledge in his own time.

Partialness shall be done away will, replaced by completeness. In the former state, there is knowledge, but it is partial. In the coming state, we shall know fully as we are fully known. It isn't knowledge that is done away with, but in-part-ness which causes us to have knowledge in part. Knowledge in part is replaced by full knowledge. Why wouldn't partial prophecy be replaced by complete prophecy?

Your interpretation makes both knowledge and prophecy less complete. You can't tell me when the famines will be or where the lost donkeys are or tell the unbeliever all the secret things of his heart. You are arguing for a different form of 'in-part-ness' being here now.

 

[ember]

Paul being well educated and a Roman citizen educated in the classic Greek did speak more languages than most of his fellow disciples. I suspect Paul knew Hebrew, Greek, Latin and the common to the time Aramaic.

Now what tongue do you speak?


For the cause of Christ
Roger

I speak one fluently, another quite well and another I understand not too bad.

I do not speak with forked tongue.

Paul and I get along better then you and I...unfortuneatly...but one day you will understand.

 

[blue_ladybug]

i can't speak in tongues, but I CAN speak in Spansh..lol..

 

[jkalyna]

I do. There is a deep seriousness about it. Sometimes it's necessary, to connect in a way when there is no other way, and you ask the Holy spirit to speak the understanding back to you. It's like deep, and I don't get to involved with it. It is not the main focal point of being a believer though, Corinthians explains it well, Love is the greatest.

 

[kohelet]

The NT removes the shadows of the OT and we see as God intended for us to see. That which was a mystery in the OT is now explained in the NT. The promise given is now made plain in Christ. The Redeemer foretold is now resurrected for all to plainly see. The Holy Spirit given to reveal the truth of Gods word. The Holy Spirit now abiding in the hearts of believers.

The ministry of the Holy Spirit has been so maligned that genuine believers shun the idea of the Holy Spirit stirring their hearts. Maligned by those who claim the Holy Spirit but act worse than the church at Corinth and that was a really bad part of the world when the apostles were preaching there.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Rodge, you reply with a quote but nothing you wrote addresses what appears in it. You talk about the shadows of the OT. How do you explain Joel 2:28ff., which explains what will happen in the end times, an outpouring of the Spirit, with "sons and your daughters" prophesying, wonders being wrought, etc. "before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord"? Not a word about prophecy ceasing before that day - this will happen right up to it. Or is there something you can point us to that shows us we're mistaken in this belief?

Your comment about people claiming the Holy Spirit acting worse than the Corinthian church is a bit sweeping, Roger, frankly.

The Holy Spirit was given to reveal the truth of God's word, was he? This is a bit like the more usual "the Holy Spirit will never call attention to Himself but will always draw attention to Christ." This is trying to force a false alternative, one not supported by Scripture. Didn't He frequently make Himself known by some phenomenon or event that indicated His activity (in both the OT and NT)? Doesn't He bear witness directly with our spirits that we are children of God? Doesn't He indwell us? Look for example at Romans 4. Doesn't He also reveal His desires to us so that we can be led by those desires and follow them? Of course He reveals the truth of God's word. He breathed it! But this is not all he does.

Could I encourage you though, Roger, to address specifically what we're saying?

 

[kohelet]

He looked at the gift of prophecy as higher then the gift of tongues.

Hi Ken,

I like what you're saying. You have to distinguish between tongues in private and tongues in church though. But even then he has a high view of tongues in both cases - provided that, in church, they are accompanied with interpretation. In that case they're on a par with prophecy.

 

[notuptome]

Rodge, you reply with a quote but nothing you wrote addresses what appears in it. You talk about the shadows of the OT. How do you explain Joel 2:28ff., which explains what will happen in the end times, an outpouring of the Spirit, with "sons and your daughters" prophesying, wonders being wrought, etc. "before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord"? Not a word about prophecy ceasing before that day - this will happen right up to it. Or is there something you can point us to that shows us we're mistaken in this belief?

Your comment about people claiming the Holy Spirit acting worse than the Corinthian church is a bit sweeping, Roger, frankly.

The Holy Spirit was given to reveal the truth of God's word, was he? This is a bit like the more usual "the Holy Spirit will never call attention to Himself but will always draw attention to Christ." This is trying to force a false alternative, one not supported by Scripture. Didn't He frequently make Himself known by some phenomenon or event that indicated His activity (in both the OT and NT)? Doesn't He bear witness directly with our spirits that we are children of God? Doesn't He indwell us? Look for example at Romans 4. Doesn't He also reveal His desires to us so that we can be led by those desires and follow them? Of course He reveals the truth of God's word. He breathed it! But this is not all he does.

Could I encourage you though, Roger, to address specifically what we're saying?

I keep having to repeat these things. Joel as you noted speaks of the Holy Spirit poured out on all flesh and then it is your sons, daughters, and old men who dream and prophecy. The your pronoun indicates Israel not all of flesh as including Gentiles. Peter at Pentecost distinguishes that what was in evidence there was no a complete fulfillment of Joel's prophecy but a partial fulfillment. Joel also speaks of a former rain and a latter rain. The history of Israel shed light on the what this means to the Jews but the main thrust is to the Jews and not to us Gentiles. Christ's return is related to the latter rain. It is a time when the times of the Gentiles is over and Israel will once again have their vision restored and they will be getting saved in abundance.

The Holy Spirit is a gift from God. The Holy Spirit has a ministry to bring conviction on men of sin, righteousness and judgment. John 16:8 Jesus said that the Holy Spirit who is the Comforter sent would be the One to guide us into all the truth. Jesus he will not speak of His own but the things He has heard. John 16:13

The Holy Spirit indwells us if we are saved. The Holy Spirit seals us unto the day of redemption. The Holy Spirit does bear witness with our spirit that we are saved. Many times the presence of the Holy Spirit is evident only to the person in whom He is ministering. The Holy Spirit is under no obligation to be involved in miracles, or other phenomenon as you suggest.

The danger we run here is that the diabolical one is able to counterfeit much of what the modern church claims to be of God. How much will we ignore before we question what spirit we are witnessing?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ember]

and yet many of the church in Corinth were Gentile

go figure

 

[presidente]

I keep having to repeat these things. Joel as you noted speaks of the Holy Spirit poured out on all flesh and then it is your sons, daughters, and old men who dream and prophecy. The your pronoun indicates Israel not all of flesh as including Gentiles. Peter at Pentecost distinguishes that what was in evidence there was no a complete fulfillment of Joel's prophecy but a partial fulfillment. Joel also speaks of a former rain and a latter rain. The history of Israel shed light on the what this means to the Jews but the main thrust is to the Jews and not to us Gentiles. Christ's return is related to the latter rain. It is a time when the times of the Gentiles is over and Israel will once again have their vision restored and they will be getting saved in abundance.

The passage says the Spirit would be poured out on all flesh; yours sons and daughters would prophesy. 'Sons and daughters' are a subset of all flesh. But it doesn't prove that 'all flesh' is only Jewish flesh, but that Israelites are included in 'all flesh.' Peter said the promise was to those who are 'afar' off. The narrative of Acts shows Peter himself witnessing the Spirit being poured out on Gentiles. Peter exclaims that the Gentiles had received the Holy Ghost, 'the same as we.' He even witnessed Gentiles speaking in tongues. The narrative of Acts doesn't support your interpretation.

As far as the latter rain prophecies go, if it is your contention that these spiritual gifts stopped at some time early on, why would you have a problem with them occurring now in this time which is much loser to the return of Christ? Even if you interpret 'latter rain' like this, you are taking a huge leap if you assume that the Spirit will only be poured out like that again after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. The Bible just doesn't say that. It's just a theory on your part, as is your interpretation of latter rain. You seem to base a lot of doctrine-- doctrine that contradicts other scripture-- on what you think a passage means.

The Holy Spirit is under no obligation to be involved in miracles, or other phenomenon as you suggest.[/quoe]

We are under an obligation not to despise the Holy Spirit when He chooses to do such things through people. That is a true danger as well. Jesus warned his opponents of blaspheming the Holy Spirit when they attributed the works of the Spirit to unclean spirits. Making blanket statements about the source of miracles is therefore a dangerous thing to do. So is dismissing such things based on such shoddy use of scripture. Your own interpretation of I Corinthians 13 gives us no reason to think that God will not work miracles or heal through people. Jesus said that he that believes in Him will do the works that He did.

 

[notuptome]

The passage says the Spirit would be poured out on all flesh; yours sons and daughters would prophesy. 'Sons and daughters' are a subset of all flesh. But it doesn't prove that 'all flesh' is only Jewish flesh, but that Israelites are included in 'all flesh.' Peter said the promise was to those who are 'afar' off. The narrative of Acts shows Peter himself witnessing the Spirit being poured out on Gentiles. Peter exclaims that the Gentiles had received the Holy Ghost, 'the same as we.' He even witnessed Gentiles speaking in tongues. The narrative of Acts doesn't support your interpretation.

You completely ignore the change in pronoun which is critical to proper exegesis of the prophecy. It was given to Israel not to the Gentile world. You of all people should know better than that.

As far as the latter rain prophecies go, if it is your contention that these spiritual gifts stopped at some time early on, why would you have a problem with them occurring now in this time which is much loser to the return of Christ? Even if you interpret 'latter rain' like this, you are taking a huge leap if you assume that the Spirit will only be poured out like that again after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. The Bible just doesn't say that. It's just a theory on your part, as is your interpretation of latter rain. You seem to base a lot of doctrine-- doctrine that contradicts other scripture-- on what you think a passage means.

There are two advents of Christ of which the former and latter rain are types. The nation of Israel which is now blinded to the gospel will in the future see their Messiah and weep. During the tribulation many Jews will be converted to Christ.

We are under an obligation not to despise the Holy Spirit when He chooses to do such things through people. That is a true danger as well. Jesus warned his opponents of blaspheming the Holy Spirit when they attributed the works of the Spirit to unclean spirits. Making blanket statements about the source of miracles is therefore a dangerous thing to do. So is dismissing such things based on such shoddy use of scripture. Your own interpretation of I Corinthians 13 gives us no reason to think that God will not work miracles or heal through people. Jesus said that he that believes in Him will do the works that He did.

You again attempt to put words in my mouth. God is not an entertainer so that He might draw crowds to wow with spectacular feats. God still heals but not for entertainment. You're talking like old Oral Roberts. God heals more people through natural methods than He does but the miraculous. So you can cease from the silliness.

Preaching the gospel is the works you are here to do. Be witnesses for Christ unto the world. Testify of the saving grace of God to a lost and dead world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

and yet many of the church in Corinth were Gentile

go figure

Compared to what? Who was influencing whom?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ember]

You're in denial Roger.

 

[notuptome]

You're in denial Roger.

What a kind and thoughtful remark.

For the cause of Christ
Roger