Can You Speak in Tongues?

[ember]

Is that how tongues work in your church. One speaks and many hear in their own languages? If so then why an interpreter? I have always maintained that tongues are a sign and a sign to Jews not to Gentiles.

ok Roger...you seem to have the gift of ignoring the actual post and continuing with your private interpretation regarding the doctrine of tongues

Your basic premise is flawed. The sign of tongues were never to bring people to Christ.

In post 205,quoted above, you stated that tongues were never to bring people to salvation, yet acts 2 records the salvation of 3000 people

How do you ignore that? When an answer is defined for you that gives evidence of your errors, you simply ignore it and continue to post as though no one has answered you.

The problem you are having is because you believe that tongues have ceased.

So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. I Corinthians 14: 22

Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

Above we see the correct understanding of the gift of prophecy in the context of congregational use is the forthtelling and not the foretelling associated with OT prophets.

The only distinction Paul makes is that it is better to be understood rather then to speak in tongues and no one undersands.

As this is the case, we have here an illustration of tongues VERY DIFFERENT from what occured on the day of Pentecost. On that day, the crowd heard the disciples in their own language. Yet, people are speaking in tongues in Corinth and not being understood...other than by God.

Self edification is not a compliment it is a rebuke. God does not require anyone to speak to Him in tongues. God knows all languages. Tongues as an evangelistic tool would be to allow communication of the word of God to those of differing languages. An interpreter necessary to assure all that the message was biblically accurate.

You are so out of touch with scripture here I don't know where to begin.

It is our spirits that pray according to the will of God. But you don't believe that and so you view everything as printed word on a page...rather then a reality in accordance with scripture.

Well you have the example of tongues being used in church by believers in Corinth....a simple yet profound example for those who acknowledge it...and not as on the day of Pentecost

The church at Corinth were not at all Jewish, so why were they speaking in tongues if tongues was only a sign for Jews?

Denying that the spiritual gifts have ceased...or just 3 according to you...is like denying the sun comes up in the morning

 

[presidente]

Roger, Paul does not say that tongues were a sign for Jews only. He says they are a sign to them that believe not. You interpret Isaiah differently from how Paul did.

 

[kohelet]

This is very like dealing with a person with a liberal, demythologising approach to Scripture. Presidente has provided biblical support for a claim and Roger then questions the word of God itself.

Oh my! Why would one speak to God in anything except his or her native tongue?

Do you believe that tongues are human languages?

It is a gift given by God for building up the believer when used privately and for building up the church when used corporately with interpretation. Should we believe they are human languages? Not if we are to take Paul's words seriously, no. The one who speaks in tongues speaks to God, as we read in 1 Corinthians 14:2, "for no one understands him."

I'm not sure I have the gift but if I did and if, as Paul says, when a person prays in tongues he prays with his spirit, I could express to the Lord with my spirit what I find impossible to put into words when overwhelmed by a sense of his love, grace and mercy toward me.

What I also find difficult to process is that Roger signs off with "For the cause of Christ" but seems to miss that Paul concludes this instruction on the spiritual gifts in general and on tongues in particular with "If anyone thinks ... he is spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord" (14:37). How can a person further the cause of Christ and not acknowledge this command of the Lord? Paul adds, "If anyone does not recognise this, he is not recognised."

Where would this put Roger?

---------------------------

Roger, you also say

Self edification is not a compliment it is a rebuke.

Are you sure? Rather than discouraging the use of tongues in private prayer, Paul says he will most certainly keep on doing it. "I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also" (14:15). "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you" (v.18).

What do you do day by day when you come to the Lord in prayer and reading his word? Would you be edifying yourself? And how does Jude encourage the Christians he is writing to to persevere? "But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life" (v.20).

How could this possibly deserve a rebuke?

 

[SoulWeaver]

It is a gift given by God for building up the believer when used privately and for building up the church when used corporately with interpretation. Should we believe they are human languages? Not if we are to take Paul's words seriously, no. The one who speaks in tongues speaks to God, as we read in 1 Corinthians 14:2, "for no one understands him."

I'd like to add to this that sometimes it might be human (meaning existing on Earth) languages as well:

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,

I've witnessed those of men as God sending a confirmation that indeed it's by His Spirit that the believer speaks in tongues, because Biblical things, prophecy or praise, would be said in a language that a person had not known prior to it.

I personally know a sister whose first words when speaking tongues were kadosh/kadesh, and she was driven to keep on and on in praise. Now someone would be thinking "repetitive gibberish" but later she inquired about the word as she doubted herself, and found out that she was repeating Holy, Holy, in Hebrew! Similar things have happened to me as well. But just giving this one example, because it's really powerful for testimony. One cant be speaking holy, holy, holy, to God in praise, and do such by a demonic spirit, for those who might be inclined to think so. It is angels in Heaven around God's throne that speak this. So tongues confirmations that God provides will line up with the Bible in this way to assure and encourage the believer.

 

[kohelet]

Hi SoulWeaver,

Thanks. Yes, could be. I wonder whether, because Paul specifically writes that no one understands the tongues, we should take this phrase, "tongues of men as of angels" to be hyperbole: "Even if I were to do this and did not have love, it would be worthless." It would kind of have to square with what he says in chapter 14.

Still, I've heard of people speaking in tongues which were human languages too. Perhaps we can understand the "no one understands him" to be exaggeration too, and Paul is saying this by way of stressing that interpretation is required.

 

[notuptome]

Roger, Paul does not say that tongues were a sign for Jews only. He says they are a sign to them that believe not. You interpret Isaiah differently from how Paul did.

Come on who are you kidding? Jesus Himself said that signs are for the Jews. Paul include that in his letter to Corinth. Jews seek a sign and Gentiles seek wisdom.

To understand what Paul meant you must consider his Jewish roots and his Jewish audience. You are attempting to impress a Gentile understanding onto Isaiah.

It is evident you have a convenient reason to assume what you prefer to believe about Pauls understanding of Isaiah.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

ok Roger...you seem to have the gift of ignoring the actual post and continuing with your private interpretation regarding the doctrine of tongues

How kind of you to say so.

In post 205,quoted above, you stated that tongues were never to bring people to salvation, yet acts 2 records the salvation of 3000 people

How do you ignore that? When an answer is defined for you that gives evidence of your errors, you simply ignore it and continue to post as though no one has answered you.

The problem you are having is because you believe that tongues have ceased.

You can misapply and misinterpret scripture as many times as you will but you will not make wrong doctrine right with repetition.

So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. I Corinthians 14: 22

Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

Above we see the correct understanding of the gift of prophecy in the context of congregational use is the forthtelling and not the foretelling associated with OT prophets.

The only distinction Paul makes is that it is better to be understood rather then to speak in tongues and no one undersands.

As this is the case, we have here an illustration of tongues VERY DIFFERENT from what occured on the day of Pentecost. On that day, the crowd heard the disciples in their own language. Yet, people are speaking in tongues in Corinth and not being understood...other than by God.

The central problem in Corinth was counterfeit tongues. In the book of Acts we do not see interpretation as an issue.

You are so out of touch with scripture here I don't know where to begin.

Not so just you have never faced proper doctrinal presentation of the scriptures. You apparently cannot receive sound doctrine.

It is our spirits that pray according to the will of God. But you don't believe that and so you view everything as printed word on a page...rather then a reality in accordance with scripture.

Well you have the example of tongues being used in church by believers in Corinth....a simple yet profound example for those who acknowledge it...and not as on the day of Pentecost

The church at Corinth were not at all Jewish, so why were they speaking in tongues if tongues was only a sign for Jews?

Denying that the spiritual gifts have ceased...or just 3 according to you...is like denying the sun comes up in the morning

There is no better example of prayer in the bible than Jesus. There is not one example of Jesus praying in tongues. There is not one example of one apostle praying in tongues. Why would anyone desire to communicate with the Creator of the universe in a mystical language that is beyond their capacity to comprehend?

The central theme of Corinthians is the cross. It is by the cross that I have access to the Creator of the universe. The vale is rent in twain and I enter into the very presence of God to bring my needs and want to Him. God bids me come and to come boldly because of the finished work of Christ on the cross.

You are presenting a counterfeit gospel. It is all about the cross and not about tongues.

Are your tongues human languages?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ember]

There is no better example of prayer in the bible than Jesus. There is not one example of Jesus praying in tongues.

There are all kinds of examples of prayer in the Bible..although the disciples did ask Him to teach them to pray. I am positive we do not always exemplify that model.

Why would Jesus pray in tongues? He was on earth and the Holy Spirit had not descended yet. In fact, Jesus told the disciples and other believers that He had to ascend in order for the Father to send the Holy Spirit.

That is usually a last ditch attempt by cessationists to deny tongues in any way, place or form.

A small chonological error there Roger

At any rate, you forgot to address the scripture in order to once again attempt to deny tongues of any sort.

Getting used to that BTW....we all have our posting styles

The rest of your post is your post if anyone else cares to address. Just a smoke screen IMO

 

[ember]

Come on who are you kidding? Jesus Himself said that signs are for the Jews. Paul include that in his letter to Corinth. Jews seek a sign and Gentiles seek wisdom.

To understand what Paul meant you must consider his Jewish roots and his Jewish audience. You are attempting to impress a Gentile understanding onto Isaiah.

It is evident you have a convenient reason to assume what you prefer to believe about Pauls understanding of Isaiah.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Well you're not kidding anyone Roger. The Bible plainly states that certain of the gifts are for signs ...such as speaking in tongues and casting out of demons another.

These signs ae for unbelievers...Jews included but Gentiles as well as Acts illustrates...have you read the whole book?

I understand what Paul wrote, most people in this thread understand what Paul wrote, the Corinthians understood what Paul wrote....where did you loose your understanding???

 

[presidente]

Come on who are you kidding? Jesus Himself said that signs are for the Jews. Paul include that in his letter to Corinth. Jews seek a sign and Gentiles seek wisdom.

This is such a weak argument. You argue from what Paul shows us that the Jews WANT, not from what God wants to do. The Bible shows miracles among the Gentiles.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. (NIV)

Paul also told a lame man to stand on his feet in front of pagans who tried to worship him and Barnabas in Acts 14.

In Romans 15, Paul says that from Jerusalem round about unto Illyricum, with signs and wonders, he had fully preached the Gospel of Christ. Signs and wonders were done in Jewish Jerusalem as well as in the Gentile areas.

You also neglect the fact that the 'signs' the Jews sought probably weren't so much miracles as fulfilled predictions, the type of sign they'd ask for to verify that someone is a prophet (or deny that he is if they don't come to pass.) The Jews demanded a sign from Jesus right after he'd preformed the miracle of feeding thousands of people with a small amount of food.

Jesus gave them the type of sign that was a predictive prophecy that would be fulfilled. No sign would be given to that generation except for the sign of the prophet Jonah, that as Jonah was in the belly of the well for three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be three days and nights in the heart of the earth. The sign He gave in John 2 for His authority to clean the temple was the same thing, destroy this temple and in three days He would raise it up. He was speaking of the resurrection. The fact that His prophecy came true was evidence of His authority.

The Jews demanded a sign. They wanted a prophet to predict the future and see if it was fulfilled as a sign. That's different from wanting to see a miracle or see speaking in tongues.

To understand what Paul meant you must consider his Jewish roots and his Jewish audience. You are attempting to impress a Gentile understanding onto Isaiah.

We should interpret Paul's use of the passage the way Paul clearly does. He explains it in the passage.

It is evident you have a convenient reason to assume what you prefer to believe about Pauls understanding of Isaiah.

You are the one trying to draw a different conclusion from the passage than Paul does.

 

[notuptome]

This is such a weak argument. You argue from what Paul shows us that the Jews WANT, not from what God wants to do. The Bible shows miracles among the Gentiles.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. (NIV)

Paul also told a lame man to stand on his feet in front of pagans who tried to worship him and Barnabas in Acts 14.

In Romans 15, Paul says that from Jerusalem round about unto Illyricum, with signs and wonders, he had fully preached the Gospel of Christ. Signs and wonders were done in Jewish Jerusalem as well as in the Gentile areas.

You also neglect the fact that the 'signs' the Jews sought probably weren't so much miracles as fulfilled predictions, the type of sign they'd ask for to verify that someone is a prophet (or deny that he is if they don't come to pass.) The Jews demanded a sign from Jesus right after he'd preformed the miracle of feeding thousands of people with a small amount of food.

Jesus gave them the type of sign that was a predictive prophecy that would be fulfilled. No sign would be given to that generation except for the sign of the prophet Jonah, that as Jonah was in the belly of the well for three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be three days and nights in the heart of the earth. The sign He gave in John 2 for His authority to clean the temple was the same thing, destroy this temple and in three days He would raise it up. He was speaking of the resurrection. The fact that His prophecy came true was evidence of His authority.

The Jews demanded a sign. They wanted a prophet to predict the future and see if it was fulfilled as a sign. That's different from wanting to see a miracle or see speaking in tongues.

Do you believe because God's word says so or do you believe because of something you see as in tongues? One is faith the other is not.

We should interpret Paul's use of the passage the way Paul clearly does. He explains it in the passage.
You are the one trying to draw a different conclusion from the passage than Paul does.

Paul is explaining it through his Jewish knowledge and perceptions. Tongues would mean nothing to Gentiles. Tongues to Jews had great meaning but not in a positive fashion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

Do you believe because God's word says so or do you believe because of something you see as in tongues? One is faith the other is not.

Some things you write really make no sense. I have believed in a lot of things in regard to spiritual gifts because the Bible says so before I've witnessed it in real life. Your problem is not believing in the spiritual gifts the Bible teaches about.

And the Bible also shows that there are some people who came to faith after seeing miracles. Sergius Paulus is an example. He believed after he saw Elymas blinded. That doesn't mean he didn't have faith. Thomas believed after he saw the resurrection. The fact that the apostles did miracles did not detract from their faith. Not believing the word before seeing is a sign of a lack of faith.

Paul is explaining it through his Jewish knowledge and perceptions. Tongues would mean nothing to Gentiles. Tongues to Jews had great meaning but not in a positive fashion.

Why would it matter if tongues meant anything to Gentiles. Why would you think Jews would usually 'get it' if they heard tongues? It would be a case of them not listening again. "And yet for all that, they will not hear Me' as Isaiah said.

For the cause of Christ
Roger[/QUOTE]

 

[notuptome]

Some things you write really make no sense. I have believed in a lot of things in regard to spiritual gifts because the Bible says so before I've witnessed it in real life. Your problem is not believing in the spiritual gifts the Bible teaches about.

And the Bible also shows that there are some people who came to faith after seeing miracles. Sergius Paulus is an example. He believed after he saw Elymas blinded. That doesn't mean he didn't have faith. Thomas believed after he saw the resurrection. The fact that the apostles did miracles did not detract from their faith. Not believing the word before seeing is a sign of a lack of faith.



Why would it matter if tongues meant anything to Gentiles. Why would you think Jews would usually 'get it' if they heard tongues? It would be a case of them not listening again. "And yet for all that, they will not hear Me' as Isaiah said.

You believe a lot of stuff that just doesn't make what you believe right. Believe God. God said tongues would cease. God said prophecies would fail. God said knowledge would vanish away. Believe that and you do well.

You see what you want to see. Do not be deceived not all who claim to know Christ actually know Christ. You can deceive yourself and you can deceive others but you cannot deceive the Lord. Above all else be certain of your salvation. Do not allow gifts to draw you away from Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ABMF]

It troubles me when churches emphasize the gift of tongs;especially when they are exercised without adhering to Biblical principles of order.

I also had an experience that causes me to believe that some instances of supposed interpretation are made up whether by intent or otherwise.

I was invited to a church where tongues were supposedly being interpreted. I recited 3 Psalms in Hebrew and the interpretation was not remotely close.

can you tell me what the interpretation was? We're you speaking in Hebrew to intentionally miss lead or deceive people into thinking you were speaking in tongues so as to prove or disprove it? Can you speak in tongues yourself?

 

[ember]

I'd like to add to this that sometimes it might be human (meaning existing on Earth) languages as well:

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,

I've witnessed those of men as God sending a confirmation that indeed it's by His Spirit that the believer speaks in tongues, because Biblical things, prophecy or praise, would be said in a language that a person had not known prior to it.

I personally know a sister whose first words when speaking tongues were kadosh/kadesh, and she was driven to keep on and on in praise. Now someone would be thinking "repetitive gibberish" but later she inquired about the word as she doubted herself, and found out that she was repeating Holy, Holy, in Hebrew! Similar things have happened to me as well. But just giving this one example, because it's really powerful for testimony. One cant be speaking holy, holy, holy, to God in praise, and do such by a demonic spirit, for those who might be inclined to think so. It is angels in Heaven around God's throne that speak this. So tongues confirmations that God provides will line up with the Bible in this way to assure and encourage the believer.

Amen. That is so beautiful about your friend. And I totally agree. One cannot say Jesus is Lord (in the sense He really is of their life) by any spirit but the Spirit of God.

We should have joy in His presence and not doubt and condemnation.

 

[ember]

I Corinthians 12


1Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[SUP]a[/SUP] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

 

[kohelet]

You believe a lot of stuff that just doesn't make what you believe right. Believe God. God said tongues would cease. God said prophecies would fail. God said knowledge would vanish away. Believe that and you do well.

You see what you want to see. Do not be deceived not all who claim to know Christ actually know Christ. You can deceive yourself and you can deceive others but you cannot deceive the Lord. Above all else be certain of your salvation. Do not allow gifts to draw you away from Christ.

Hi Roger,

It is becoming clear that you sincerely want people not to be chasing something that is superseded and neglect their salvation. This is good. I think I'm beginning to see your heart here and I'm warming to the genuineness of your concern.

You remind us that tongues will cease and prophecies will fail. The question is though, as I mentioned in my little opening contribution (Post #230), when this will take place. Unless we no longer "see through a glass, darkly" and "know even as [we are] known", it hasn't happened yet and we can take it for granted that the gifts are still operating in the church and won't be drawing us away from Jesus. He send the Spirit who gave the gifts, after all.

Could you comment please, on that post? I have an idea it's on page 12. Thank you!

 

[notuptome]

Hi Roger,

It is becoming clear that you sincerely want people not to be chasing something that is superseded and neglect their salvation. This is good. I think I'm beginning to see your heart here and I'm warming to the genuineness of your concern.

You remind us that tongues will cease and prophecies will fail. The question is though, as I mentioned in my little opening contribution (Post #230), when this will take place. Unless we no longer "see through a glass, darkly" and "know even as [we are] known", it hasn't happened yet and we can take it for granted that the gifts are still operating in the church and won't be drawing us away from Jesus. He send the Spirit who gave the gifts, after all.

Could you comment please, on that post? I have an idea it's on page 12. Thank you!

The NT removes the shadows of the OT and we see as God intended for us to see. That which was a mystery in the OT is now explained in the NT. The promise given is now made plain in Christ. The Redeemer foretold is now resurrected for all to plainly see. The Holy Spirit given to reveal the truth of Gods word. The Holy Spirit now abiding in the hearts of believers.

The ministry of the Holy Spirit has been so maligned that genuine believers shun the idea of the Holy Spirit stirring their hearts. Maligned by those who claim the Holy Spirit but act worse than the church at Corinth and that was a really bad part of the world when the apostles were preaching there.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ember]

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

I agree with scripture.

 

[kennethcadwell]

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

I agree with scripture.

The issue arises around the first part of this passage you gave, as in verse 10 says that which is perfect or completeness comes then they will cease. The problem is that one person took that the canon/completed bible and placed it as that which is perfect, and it took off like wild fire with some believing that.
However there is absolutely no evidence from the scriptures to prove this point, however there is plenty of biblical evidence that when the final prophecies of the bible of the forming of the New Heavens and the New Earth with the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven onto the earth as when all things will finally be fulfilled and perfect.
As God comes down to dwell with us with no more pain, sadness, death, hatred, and so on............................