Dangers of Feminism

[TheAristocat]

So now you are comparing women with children? Sounds exactly like your predecessors from earlier centuries. I worked for a lexicographer who collected really old books; one of them was a parser created for women because the author believed that they, like children, are incapable of handling the same GRAMMAR as the men. Male/female relationships are NOT equal to adult/child relationships.

But I'm sure that using the logic of previous posts someone could argue that they are from a biblical perspective on authority. But I don't interpret the Bible in that way. So they're neither the same for me from a secular perspective nor from a biblical perspective. And I wouldn't argue that a man spank his wife for the same reason that you generally don't spank anyone after the age of 10 or 11 - even if she deserved it.

I understand that there are a lot of women out there who have had bad experiences in their lives with men. But for most of my life it has been that the women were manipulative, controlling, half-crazy and selfish while the guys were fairly level headed and dedicated. So if I were to neglect what the Bible had to say on the subject I'd trust myself more in a position of authority than I would a woman. It's just what my life has taught me. And if I were to look at what the Bible had to say I'd just say to obey your husband as a general rule regardless of who's crazier. But, no, I don't believe a man should treat his wife as he treats his kids. They're both adults, and they've probably been through enough to deserve each other's mutual respect and basic dignity.

 

[Angela53510]

And if I were to look at what the Bible had to say I'd just say to obey your husband as a general rule regardless of who's crazier.

Aristocat, please show me the verse that says women are to OBEY their husbands. Submission is a different word, in Greek and English. It implies a voluntary commitment on the part of a woman. Children and slaves obey, because they are not considered people, sadly as that implies. But really, it was never about whether children and slaves were human beings, but rather about how they could be a strong witness to the Roman and Greek societies.

In fact, 1 Peter 3:1 tells, wives to submit - ὑποτασσόμεναι but it also tells us that men are to obey the Word, which implies some don't! I'm hoping these men are not Christians at all.

"Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives," 1 Peter 3:1

Notice that in this verse, the whole point is to win over unsaved husbands. I have a friend in this position, and she has gone overboard with this verse. She is brainwashed herself to never speak a word, to figure out her husband's needs before he knows them. Yet her husband is not yet saved, despite 9 years on my part praying for him, and more on her own. And she is hurting from waiting and praying and twisting herself in circles so her husband will be saved. I personally think there is a big emotional stronghold, and a Christian man needs to help him through the pain and suffering he has gone through. I don't think this approach has worked or is going to work, although I pray it will!

So in that society, it may have been an eye opener to have a wife who totally volunteered herself to submit to her husband and may in some cases be a way to win unsaved husbands to the Lord.

I'm sorry you ran into some bad women. I have had some bad experiences with men, including Christian men! That includes extreme physical violence. But God opened up my eyes to the truth of what Paul was really saying, and it was not that women should dominate men or vice versa. Instead, we are all equal in the eyes of God, and we should all treat each other with the love and respect that Christ shows the church.

I think this discussion would fade away if Christian men would stop abusing their wives and demanding they "obey". If they treated their wives as Christ treats the church, there would not be an issue in the church today about this divisive issue about women's place in the home and church. Instead, the wives would be respecting and loving their husbands, and the husbands would be leading by an excellent example. Love, as 1 Cor. 12-13 says!

"And yet I will show you the most excellent way.13 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. [SUP]2 [/SUP]If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. [SUP]3 [/SUP]If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing." 1 Cor 12:31b-13:1a

This is the gospel that this whole debate is missing, and Paul devoted a whole chapter to this issue.

 

[presidente]

Aristocat, please show me the verse that says women are to OBEY their husbands. Submission is a different word, in Greek and English. It implies a voluntary commitment on the part of a woman.

I know you said this to Aristocat, but this has already been covered in the thread:

I Peter 3
3 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, [SUP]2 [/SUP]when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— [SUP]4 [/SUP]rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, [SUP]6 [/SUP]as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.
(NKJV)

What example does Peter give of what it means for a wife to submit to her husband. Saray OBEYING Abraham. Look up the word and compare it to the word used to tell children to obey their parents and servants to obey their masters.

Children and slaves obey, because they are not considered people, sadly as that implies. But really, it was never about whether children and slaves were human beings, but rather about how they could be a strong witness to the Roman and Greek societies.

Wow! Do you mean you think the Bible doesn't consider children and slaves to be people? I don't see that at all. We all have to obey God. Does that mean we aren't people. Having to obey doesn't make one any less a person. Obedience and submission aren't bad things. All of us, male or female, have to obey or submit to someone. And we all have to obey God. Having to obey doesn't make one any less of a human being.

Wives are to submit to their husbands not just because of Greek society, but to portray something God wants portrayed through creation that depicts the relationship between Christ and the church. God knows what is best for us and what will bring Him glory.

I do agree that a wife should submit voluntarily. I don't believe a husband should be domineering (as you have wrongly painted my position in a previous post.) Husbands must treat their wives with the proper honor, too. Submissive, obedient wives married to domineer ogre husbands is not what the plan for marriage the Bible teaches. But neither is kind, gentle husbands married to unsubmissive rebellious wives.

I think this discussion would fade away if Christian men would stop abusing their wives and demanding they "obey". If they treated their wives as Christ treats the church, there would not be an issue in the church today about this divisive issue about women's place in the home and church.

I disagree. In some marriages it might. But women are fallen creatures to. Sin does not solely originate from men. Women do it to. I think we see a lot of examples counter to what you suggest here. We have a dominant culture where women are not expected to submit to or obey their husbands, and some of the husbands are gentle and don't even know they are supposed to provide leadership in the marriage-- because culture has taught them otherwise and they may not have seen a good example of it. How do women respond? Some 'nice guy' husbands end up divorced or run over by controlling wives. As Christians, we should exhort one another. That includes a husband lovingly pointing out to his wife if she isn't fulfilling her role, and not enabling or going along with her not doing it if necessarily.

Christ is the perfect Husband, but we see churches misbehaving in Revelation 2.

 

[proverbs35]

The Bible never tells husbands to obey their wives. '

Generally speaking, those in authority should "listen" to those in subjection to them when necessary.

The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Pr 4:7

Wisdom is a virtue that both men and women should acquire. In other words, wisdom isn't just for wives seeking to be like the Pr 31 woman.

A wise man will hear and increase in learning, And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel. Pr 1:5
A wise man is he who listens to counsel. Pr 12:15
Listen to advice and accept instruction, and in the end you will be wise. Pr 19:20

According to the lexicon, one of the definitions or synonyms for listen (8085) is "to obey, be obedient."

Examples of men in scripture who listened to (obeyed) women:

Husbands listened (obeyed) wives:
But God told Abraham, "Do not be upset over the boy and your servant. Do whatever Sarah tells you, for Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted (Gen 21:12).

Hannah's husband submitted to the vow that she made to the Lord (1 Sam 1:11, 21-23). This is especially relevant since some like to boast about a husband's lawful right to cancel his wife's vow. Hannah's husband didn't do that. Instead, he listened to the wisdom of his wife.

Xerxes listened to Esther's plea about reversing Haman's order to destroy the Jews (Es 8:5, 9:13).

By the way, if you have or had small children, do you submit to them to the same extent you expect them to submit to you? Do you obey your kids?

Parents submitting to adult children
So Mordecai went away and did everything as Esther had ordered him. Es 4:17

The point is that Mordecai raised Esther, but there came a season when it was necessary for Mordecai to follow Esther's orders.

There are modern day examples of parents submitting to their children. Ec 3:1 states that "there is a time for everything." In life, many adult children have to make decisions for sick and/or elderly parents. This role reversal is known as parenting elderly parents or caregiving for elderly parents. Elderly parents often become subject to their adult children's decision making. It happens all the time.

Master listening to slave
Naman listened to his male servants and his wife's servant girl (2 kings 5:2,3,13,14).

Other examples of men listening to the wisdom of women
Rahab instructed the Israeli spies about how to escape (Josh 2:16).

Joab listened to what the Wise Woman of Abel had to say (2 Sam 20:17).

David listened to Abigail (1 Sam 25:24-34).

Considering these examples and as it relates to marriage, a husband should listen to (obey) the wisdom of his wife. Let us not forget what Proverbs says about a virtuous woman, "she speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue." Pr 31:26

Ep 5:21 aside, there are literal examples in scripture of men listening to the wisdom of women and husbands listening to the wisdom of their wives. In a nutshell, this is mutual submission in marriage - wives submitting to their husbands and husbands listening to the wisdom of their wives.

 

[TheAristocat]

I think this discussion would fade away if Christian men would stop abusing their wives and demanding they "obey". If they treated their wives as Christ treats the church, there would not be an issue in the church today about this divisive issue about women's place in the home and church. Instead, the wives would be respecting and loving their husbands, and the husbands would be leading by an excellent example.

Perhaps. But I've loved a woman and treated her kindly, and she tried to control me - not the other way around. Of course she had had bad experiences with men in the past. But if I let my past experiences dictate how I treat women in the future I'd just end up being an abusive husband. So I think it's best to forget about who wronged who and love each other.

The Bible does bestow upon Mankind the image of God. And he bestows on men in particular a special symbol of God - that is ultimate authority over the household.

Titus 2:4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children,[SUP] [/SUP]to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

Subject to = hypotasso = to subordinate, subject oneself to, obey, to yield to one's admonition or advice

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Head = kephale = physical head, the corner stone, master, anything supreme

I believe even the man is supposed to subject himself to his wife at times, because of the marriage contract. The man is supposed to reverence God by subjecting his body to his wife. The two have obligations to each other. The wife was to obey the husband. The husband was to protect, provide for and give his life for the wife. Each has their roles. But in terms of ultimate authority over the household, I believe that rested with the man in so far as otherwise-unresolvable disputes are concerned. And in turn all husbands are given a warning:

1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

I don't have a problem with all women. Each one is different. I've found some very stubborn ones. And I've found some very humble ones that renewed my faith in them. But in terms of this subject I feel it's easier to love a woman who is humble. If that is your opinion of men, then I don't see a problem with that.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

U.S. males have been driven to the point that now 71% of young men in America say a successful marriage is NOT one of the most important things to their lives:

Young Men and Women Differ on the Importance of a Successful Marriage | Pew Research Center

"This gender gap is a new development, as men and women were statistically equal on this measure in 1997."

Take that in feminists. 71% of young men don't want to marry women anymore thanks to the constant decades long vicious sweeping and deep assault on them from the media, public education system, justice system and family courts, government, culture, etc... which systematically demeans and exploits them.

I HOPE YOU HAVE FUN GROWING OLD WITH YOUR TEN CATS.

Karen Staughan, a men's right advocate, stated:

1. Men's Desires Matter- If men cannot find a woman that they are attracted to and desire who wants to partner with them in return, then they will not settle down at all.

2. Society's Definition of Commitment Has Changed- Looking at divorce and family law today, men feel that when women say the word "commitment" it really means that they will stay with you until the day they are no longer 100% satisfied in the marriage relationship.

3. Women's Expectations Have Risen to Be too High- When a OK Cupid's poll was taken, where women said they felt 80% of men were below average on the attractiveness scale. This is not so much about reality, just the very high expectations of women these days.

4. Every Woman Cares Less What Men Want in a Partner- Each woman comes with baggage and dating history, but they seem to think that men should want them just the way that they are despite any poor behaviors.

5. It Could Be About a Positive Male Identity- Men have a hard time relating with other men, but they can identify and relate with each other by focusing on their roles. Men want to feel valued so they do this by performing out roles of masculinity. The man wants his role to be differentiated from that of the woman. Men used to be able to find positive male identity in marriage, until their role as father and husband was found to be obsolete. If women can divorce men and take their children and their assets away from them, stripping them of their positive male identity, then why would they partner at all? Marriage for some is no longer a positive way for men to define themselves as men.

6. Billboards, Commercials and Media Have Labeled Husbands and Fathers as Being Buffoons- The mass media has made the father and husband roles that are portrayed have become less male and they are less desirable.

7. The Workplace Has Also Lost its "Maleness"- This is not at the fault of women. The workplace does not need to be free of women, but it needs to be one that suits the men's psychology. The workplace changes when women are present in order to spare hurt feelings and it has become a feminized workplace. Men are slowly losing their drive to perform and again it is not because women are present in the workplace. It is because with women present there is an expectation to change the male behavior and the functional changes that better suit women's' needs.

8. Men are Retreating and Going Towards the Internet- Men go online to find a positive identity where no one will tell them to change their behavior. They play video games, visit online forums and relate with other single guys who have also given up the expected roles as men in society. When the roles in society are no longer a way to gain respect, then they believe it is time to throw those roles out the window.

9. Shaming Men Into Doing What is Expected of Them Does Not Work- Although men have been shamed in the past to join the military and fight for this country, it is not altogether possible to shame a man into marriage to gain society's approval.

 

[biscuit]

U.S. males have been driven to the point that now 71% of young men in America say a successful marriage is NOT one of the most important things to their lives:

Young Men and Women Differ on the Importance of a Successful Marriage | Pew Research Center

"This gender gap is a new development, as men and women were statistically equal on this measure in 1997."

Take that in feminists. 71% of young men don't want to marry women anymore thanks to the constant decades long vicious sweeping and deep assault on them from the media, public education system, justice system and family courts, government, culture, etc... which systematically demeans and exploits them.

I HOPE YOU HAVE FUN GROWING OLD WITH YOUR TEN CATS.

Karen Staughan, a men's right advocate, stated:

1. Men's Desires Matter- If men cannot find a woman that they are attracted to and desire who wants to partner with them in return, then they will not settle down at all.

2. Society's Definition of Commitment Has Changed- Looking at divorce and family law today, men feel that when women say the word "commitment" it really means that they will stay with you until the day they are no longer 100% satisfied in the marriage relationship.

3. Women's Expectations Have Risen to Be too High- When a OK Cupid's poll was taken, where women said they felt 80% of men were below average on the attractiveness scale. This is not so much about reality, just the very high expectations of women these days.

4. Every Woman Cares Less What Men Want in a Partner- Each woman comes with baggage and dating history, but they seem to think that men should want them just the way that they are despite any poor behaviors.

5. It Could Be About a Positive Male Identity- Men have a hard time relating with other men, but they can identify and relate with each other by focusing on their roles. Men want to feel valued so they do this by performing out roles of masculinity. The man wants his role to be differentiated from that of the woman. Men used to be able to find positive male identity in marriage, until their role as father and husband was found to be obsolete. If women can divorce men and take their children and their assets away from them, stripping them of their positive male identity, then why would they partner at all? Marriage for some is no longer a positive way for men to define themselves as men.

6. Billboards, Commercials and Media Have Labeled Husbands and Fathers as Being Buffoons- The mass media has made the father and husband roles that are portrayed have become less male and they are less desirable.

7. The Workplace Has Also Lost its "Maleness"- This is not at the fault of women. The workplace does not need to be free of women, but it needs to be one that suits the men's psychology. The workplace changes when women are present in order to spare hurt feelings and it has become a feminized workplace. Men are slowly losing their drive to perform and again it is not because women are present in the workplace. It is because with women present there is an expectation to change the male behavior and the functional changes that better suit women's' needs.

8. Men are Retreating and Going Towards the Internet- Men go online to find a positive identity where no one will tell them to change their behavior. They play video games, visit online forums and relate with other single guys who have also given up the expected roles as men in society. When the roles in society are no longer a way to gain respect, then they believe it is time to throw those roles out the window.

9. Shaming Men Into Doing What is Expected of Them Does Not Work- Although men have been shamed in the past to join the military and fight for this country, it is not altogether possible to shame a man into marriage to gain society's approval.

Excellente

 

[presidente]

AgeofKnowledge, I think the man you quoted made some valid points. For Christian men, though, if we want to have a sexual relationship, an intimate relationship with a woman, we must marry. Many of the men advising against marriage think of fornication as an alternative. That's not a Christian alternative. Marrying domestic non-feminists who don't fit the description in your article or marrying foreign women are options for Christian men facing those issues.

But let's be realistic, modern men aren't always that appealing to Christian women. A lot of the baggage that comes with the typical modern western single woman is associated with her string of fornication partners. The typical western man has the same problem. Sitting around playing video games all the time isn't that appealing to a lot of women.

We have a problem of men and women not preparing themselves for marriage. I'd agree that feminism is a part of that problem, since it confuses women as to what they should prepare themselves to be. The focus of modern feminism is on their rights, what they want, and how they can oppose the patriarchy that keeps them down, not how they can prepare themselves to be pleasing to a man, to be a good wife, to be a good mother.

 

[Angela53510]

Head = kephale = physical head, the corner stone, master, anything supreme

This is actually not the the definition of Kephale in Greek. While it is certainly the physical head of an object, animal or person, it is not the cornerstone, master or supreme. That is the word arche in Greek.

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD] Strong's Number: 746[/TD]
[TD="width: 120, align: center"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Original Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Word Origin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"][h=2][/h]ἀρχή

[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]from (756)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Transliterated Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]TDNT Entry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Arche[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]1:479,81[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Phonetic Spelling[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Parts of Speech[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]ar-khay' [/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Noun Feminine[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"] Definition[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]

1. beginning, origin
2. the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3. that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4. the extremity of a thing
   1. of the corners of a sail
5. the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
   1. of angels and demons

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

The word Kephale means the physical head, or in the case of Eph. 5, the figurative or metaphorical head. The husband is instructed to be the head, but it also misses the definition which is more commonly found in the Greek, which is "the one who went before his troops." Not the ruler, general or king who was the supreme leader, but rather the one who was going to take the bullet for the team. (By the way, I found your definition of the word Kephale on the NAS Greek Lexicon, a lexicon which I have never heard of.)

The one reliable way to find out what the meaning of a Greek word is, is to look in the Septuagint, or the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, which was translated by the experts of their time, well before the time of Christ. They knew both languages and culture far better than any expert scholar of our day.

In Hebrew, the word "rosh" is beginning or head, or ruler. If you look closely at each time the word is translated as kephale, it is either translated as physical head, or in a rare case, for one who is at the head of the troops.

Arche is always used for ruler, supreme leader in every single example in the Septuagint. Since Paul was familiar with both the Septuagint and Hebrew versions of the Old Testament, he was also very careful not to imply that the man was in some way supreme over his wife, but rather, willing to take the sword (or bullet) for his wife, just as Christ allowed himself to be crucified for his church. That is the true definition of servanthood, to lay down your life for a friend, as Christ did for the church, and the husband must do for his wife.

"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

"God demonstrates his love for us in this, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

Since only two verses before the Kephale statement in Eph. 5:23, Paul instructs everyone to mutually submit to one another - to voluntarily come under and be servants, it makes no sense that suddenly Paul is telling men that they are the supreme rulers of their wives.

While I respect and love my husband, and submit to him out of reverence for Christ, he is simply not answerable to God for my actions, and we all are responsible for our walk with God, and how we obeyed Jesus' commands that:

"and whoever would be first among you must be slaveof all." Mark 10:44

"The greatest among you shall be your servant." Matt 23:11

As for your list of issues AgeofKnowledge, you have in no way shown that feminism is the cause of all these issues. I would strongly suggest that in fact, a wicked and perverted media in America, which has moved from Christian values to filth, smut and brutality is far more responsible. Even back in the 1960's when I was growing up, the hippies had a saying "Do your own thing." This list suggests the hippie lifestyle, (minus drugs in some cases) has become the standard, and this decline in society has nothing to do with feminists, or even patriarchal men, but the works of Satan since the great revivals in the 1950's as Satan attempts to destroy society from within.

Very sad how people pervert words, and issue blanket condemnations of people who really are seeking to redress wrongs in our society. Does that mean all feminists are good and perfect? Of course not. Many are godless heathens, and are anti-men. But the women I grew up with are all working in some helping profession, from teaching, to medicine and helping the mentally ill. True feminism put us all on the path of being servants, just as Christ wants us to be.

Well, I'm off this thread. I would rather start a positive one on how we can all serve God in one form or another, and God is the one who is our "head" since we are all part of the church, and Christ led on ahead into the battle, dying on the cross in our place for our sins.

 

[TheAristocat]

That is the true definition of servanthood, to lay down your life for a friend, as Christ did for the church, and the husband must do for his wife.

I don't have a problem with men serving their wives. Is that not what they do when they go out and earn a living and provide for them? Obedience doesn't always mean servitude, since the one who leads is usually the one who serves. But I do believe the husband is to have the final say in a relationship. However, there is a hierarchy. The woman's head is the man and the man's head is Christ and Christ's head is God. God is supreme over Christ. Christ said he did not say anything but what the Father told him to say. Man should likewise obey Christ. And a woman should obey her husband.

If you believe there is a problem with the definition of kephale you can notify these people: Greek Lexicon :: G2776 (KJV)

Ephesians 5:22-23 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. [...] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

I think Ephesians is saying more than just, "Husbands, you're supposed to die for your wives, and you're supposed to submit to their will. Wives, you're supposed to submit to your husbands' will." I think what it's saying is that 1. a wife is supposed to submit to her husband, because her husband is her master and because God is the master of both of them and wants the wife to submit to the husband as her master, and 2. the husband should submit to the wife not because the wife is the master of the husband but because God is the master of the husband and wants the husband to submit to the wife. There is a hierarchy, but it is all kept in check by God.

And let's realize that we all have one master - God - but when it comes to moving homes or getting a certain job or any other secular pursuit, the Bible gives us the freedom to decide on that for ourselves. And in a marriage God has given the authority to make such secular judgments to the husband. The husband is still ordered by God to submit to (i.e. defer to the advice of) the woman, but the husband is called the head. And the final decision in such secular matters is up to him.

In other words, the woman submits to the man's final word on the decision. In turn the man doesn't just ignore the woman's wishes but defers to her advice and as best as he can submits to her will. In other words, the husband is supposed to be a benevolent dictator. Marriage is not a democracy. The man makes the final decision, but he - as best as he can - makes decisions that will please both God and his wife.

 

[biscuit]

The man makes the final decision, but he - as best as he can - makes decisions that will please both God and his wife.

And there is a large percentage of women who refuse to acknowledge and obey God's words. I personally believe He is punishing them for their rebellion against Him because so much of the gains that the WLM (feminists) gave them are being eradicating during these tough economic times.

 

[Tintin]

Both men and women have to sacrifice something in marriage. Husbands have to step up to the plate and be responsible when there's the tendency to do otherwise. Wives need to back off a little and let their husbands lead with their best interests in mind.

 

[oldernotwiser]

im in china and see many chinese women in their 30s or 40s who are divorced and some of the nicest women i have ever met. chinese culture is breaking down and many wealthy chinese men marry very attractive, well educated women young women thn replace them when they hit 35. i dont like the idea of "mail order brides" tho. a man must be willing to spend a few months in china and get to know a woman before marriage. there are cultural issues that can be really important. to marry a chinese woman is to marry a chinese family. if a chinese woman can somehow separate herself from family i would worry about how she would relate to me.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I quoted a woman, who is a men's right advocate, NOT a man. Her name is Karen Straughan. But my post was written at feminists not non-feminists even though, of course, my audience is everyone.

Like you, I advocate the Biblical model for marriage and agree with your points. I would NEVER engage in sex with another outside of a Christian monogamous marriage.

Understand; however, that women aren't bombarded with a virulent anti-female ideology from practically every corner of society from the day they are born to the day they die nor exposed to the inequality which now exists in the institution of marriage with regards to men, a result of feminist economics extrapolated from the marketplace into the institution of marriage.

AgeofKnowledge, I think the man you quoted made some valid points. For Christian men, though, if we want to have a sexual relationship, an intimate relationship with a woman, we must marry. Many of the men advising against marriage think of fornication as an alternative. That's not a Christian alternative. Marrying domestic non-feminists who don't fit the description in your article or marrying foreign women are options for Christian men facing those issues.

But let's be realistic, modern men aren't always that appealing to Christian women. A lot of the baggage that comes with the typical modern western single woman is associated with her string of fornication partners. The typical western man has the same problem. Sitting around playing video games all the time isn't that appealing to a lot of women.

We have a problem of men and women not preparing themselves for marriage. I'd agree that feminism is a part of that problem, since it confuses women as to what they should prepare themselves to be. The focus of modern feminism is on their rights, what they want, and how they can oppose the patriarchy that keeps them down, not how they can prepare themselves to be pleasing to a man, to be a good wife, to be a good mother.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

All that aside, when 71% of a nation's young men state that a successful marriage is NOT one of the most important things to their lives, you know CHANGE is coming and soon like it or not.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood is a complementarianist evangelical Christian organization. The group was formed in 1987 to oppose growing feminist influences in society and in evangelical churches.

The group's core beliefs are articulated in the Danvers Statement, written by several evangelical leaders at a meeting in Danvers, Massachusetts in 1987.

The basis of the statement and their beliefs is that although men and women were both created in the image of God, they have different, complimentary roles in the home, family, religion, and elsewhere in society as per the Biblical model.

The Danvers Statement:

http://www.churchcouncil.org/iccp_org/Documents_ICCP/English/17_Male_Female_Distinctives_A&D.pdf

The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood:

Mission & Vision | CBMW | The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood

 

[Misty77]

The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood is a complementarianist evangelical Christian organization. The group was formed in 1987 to oppose growing feminist influences in society and in evangelical churches.

The group's core beliefs are articulated in the Danvers Statement, written by several evangelical leaders at a meeting in Danvers, Massachusetts in 1987.

The basis of the statement and their beliefs is that although men and women were both created in the image of God, they have different, complimentary roles in the home, family, religion, and elsewhere in society as per the Biblical model.

The Danvers Statement:

http://www.churchcouncil.org/iccp_org/Documents_ICCP/English/17_Male_Female_Distinctives_A&D.pdf

The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood:

Mission & Vision | CBMW | The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood

Interesting note: I (a feminist) am an assistant to a member of CBMW. =)

While we disagree on some theological points, those that I have met are really good, sincere believers.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Given the statistics I'm looking at, it is DEFINITELY going to take honest dialogue of the type you just engaged in combined with some genuine repentance and real societal ideological shifts toward the Biblical model moving forward if things are to stabilize instead of grow much much worse.

The statistics have predictive power and the prediction is that things are going to get really unwholesome for women moving forward as a result of the choices 71% of young men are about to make.

Interesting note: I (a feminist) am an assistant to a member of CBMW. =)

While we disagree on some theological points, those that I have met are really good, sincere believers.

 

[Misty77]

Given the statistics I'm looking at, it is DEFINITELY going to take honest dialogue of the type you just engaged in combined with some genuine repentance and real societal ideological shifts toward the Biblical model moving forward if things are to stabilize instead of grow much much worse.

The statistics have predictive power and the prediction is that things are going to get really unwholesome for women moving forward as a result of the choices 71% of young men are about to make.

I think the problem may lie with using phrases like "Biblical model." While the intent is accurate, it conveys that there is an instruction manual that we are to be striving toward. On a certain level, that's true; but without the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, we are incapable of doing anything good or right. Instead of humankind working to attain the unattainable, we should all be yielding our will to His and allow Him to make us in His image—which, of course, will be truly His model, without any misinterpretations or misapplications on our part.

The former method is our effort, the latter is the Lord's. Can you see the nuances in play here?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Every article I read shows that the institution of marriage in China is undergoing rapid changes just as you said with the divorce rate accelerating every year. An estimated 2.87 million Chinese marriages ended in divorce in 2012 alone, a number on the rise for the seventh year in a row.

Though 2.87 million divorces in 2012 may not seem like a lot to some (I think it is) given China's enormous population, the rate of divorce is exponentially growing and THAT is going to change Chinese society.

Reasons the media gives range from China's procreation policy, new and easier divorce procedures, the growing population of white-collar females with high education and financial independence, a general loosening of traditional conservative views (especially in urban areas), etc...

I think us Christians can offer a few other reasons besides.

im in china and see many chinese women in their 30s or 40s who are divorced and some of the nicest women i have ever met. chinese culture is breaking down and many wealthy chinese men marry very attractive, well educated women young women thn replace them when they hit 35. i dont like the idea of "mail order brides" tho. a man must be willing to spend a few months in china and get to know a woman before marriage. there are cultural issues that can be really important. to marry a chinese woman is to marry a chinese family. if a chinese woman can somehow separate herself from family i would worry about how she would relate to me.