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L
T
I think as we all have this discussion with Lis, we need to make sure we do so out of Christian love and compassion and an appreciation for how difficult her situation is. It really seems like Lis you are trying to do your best in a situation there are no easy answers for.
I was listening to a Tim Keller sermon today that said for every time a child is criticized, he should be complimented five times, because criticism stays with someone so much longer than praise.
I think a version of that applies here. Should Lis's son know that ultimately she feels the gay lifestyle is not what God wants for him? Of course. But should she be spending far more time talking about the love of Jesus and praying for him (and asking for our prayers, which she has already done)? I think so.
There's no point in trying to change her son if he's not right with Jesus. Jesus is the only one who can truly change him anyway. So what the situation needs more than anything is Lis and all of us praying that her son decides to give his life to Christ. At that point Jesus can renew his mind and help him overcome his temptations and struggles.
But first he needs to come exactly as he is -- gay temptations and all -- and give his life to the One who loves him so much He died for him.
I was listening to a Tim Keller sermon today that said for every time a child is criticized, he should be complimented five times, because criticism stays with someone so much longer than praise.
I think a version of that applies here. Should Lis's son know that ultimately she feels the gay lifestyle is not what God wants for him? Of course. But should she be spending far more time talking about the love of Jesus and praying for him (and asking for our prayers, which she has already done)? I think so.
There's no point in trying to change her son if he's not right with Jesus. Jesus is the only one who can truly change him anyway. So what the situation needs more than anything is Lis and all of us praying that her son decides to give his life to Christ. At that point Jesus can renew his mind and help him overcome his temptations and struggles.
But first he needs to come exactly as he is -- gay temptations and all -- and give his life to the One who loves him so much He died for him.
L
Thanks Tommy2. That's exactly what I told him too....if and when he's willing to come to Christ, come as he is with everything he's carrying---and give it over to Him who loves him so much, that He gave His life for him...and for every sin he carries and more. That is my prayer. Thank you everyone who is praying for him. 
L
Lis45, I have to disagree with you on that. We as Christians according to the Bible are allowed to use righteous judgment on those in the church as well as those outside of it. Did not John the Baptist confront Herod about him having his brother's wife, Herodias? Did not Daniel confront Belshazzar and mention the sins that he did against God? Did not Jesus call out the Pharisees? Yes, God is the ultimate judge but when the Bible says something is a sin, we must call it a sin. That does not take away from loving a person. Remember what Jesus said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength AND love your neighbor (not accepting anything that is sinful including your own sin) as yourself. Comparing homosexuality to pedophila, rape, and incest is not just plain ignorance. In the Old Testament where it mentions these sexual sins, it goes down a list and through this list, you can see connections to these. If you accept one of these, then what is stopping you from accepting them all? That is a slippery slope. The people calling sin a sin, are not forgetting what love is. Besides warning someone about a sin, I think was mentioned also in Ezekiel. Homosexuals are not our enemies, but a lot who follow militant pro-homosexuality activists like GLAAD, GLSEN, Stonewall, etc consider us their enemies and ridicule, mock, hate, and go Gestapo on people they don't like. Where is the love in that? Now of course we should not right away when we are talking to someone who is a homosexual, right away say it is a sin. We must become friends with them and at the right point, when they bring it up not us, speak the truth in love and then be prepared for any consequences. God bless you, brothers and sisters in Christ.
Ok, just let me get my scriptural ponderings out.
When I read the story of John the Baptist, this is what I see. He made a "righteous judgement" (and yes, he was angry)....at the wrong time. And it cost him his life in the end. Who knows? Had he prayed for wisdom, he might've held off for a one-to-one with Herodius and Herod. I don't judge him though. And neither did Jesus. He loved John. He knew his heart was in the right place..and John still died...and Daniel seemed to be very wise. While he may have "confronted" belshazaar, I don't remember seeing him "confronting" Nebudchanezzar, lol. And did you notice how Jesus "confronted" the Pharisees over and over again because of their religiosity and misrepresentation of God to "sinners"? Jesus was mocked often for being surrounded by sinners, yet they are the very ones he came to save. By love, truth, and grace, he drew them. Take one of those out and you have nothing. Ok I'm done rambling now. Time to break and study, lol.
Greetings Lisa45,
Forgive me, but whenever I see the misuse of what it means to not judge I have to speak up. In Rom.2:1 Paul, in reference to the same-sex issue he previously addressed as well as with the myriad of sins that mentions after, the type of judgment that he is referring to is, forming an opinion and passing a condemning sentence, a desire for those sinners to be punished, when we ourselves are guilty of sin. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong for believers to form a judgment, that is, to form an opinion based on the word of God. In fact, we are supposed to make right judgments. Consider the scripture below as Paul is speaking to the Corinthians who had a believer in their ranks who was sleeping with his step mother:
"I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
"If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
Regarding the above, how is it that people say "Judge not lest you be judged?" First, we are not to pass a condemning judgment nor should we have a desire for people to be punished for their sins, seeing that we are just as guilty and are saved by grace through faith and not by our own righteousness. Second, when we make a judgment upon another believer, we should make sure that we are not doing the same things or worse, which is Jesus' example of having a board in our own eye. But what does Jesus say, first take the board out of your own eye then you will see clearly judge your brother and help him with the speck of dust in his.
The point is that, Many people use this verse in an attempt to silence their critics, interpreting Jesus’ meaning as “You don’t have the right to tell me I’m wrong.” As Christian's we are to discern between what is right or wrong based on the truth of God's word, therefore we making judgments daily.
I'll use the "same-sex" issue as an example: If someone claims to be a believer in Christ and makes it known to me that he/she is living a same-sex life style, at that moment I have already made a judgment based on the truth of God's word that this person is not living according to the word of God. And with the right opportunity and right spirit, I am going to make it know to them. Have I sinned in making this judgment? No! I have made a righteous judgment, which is glorifying to God and is a warning to the sinner. Now, if after finding out this information I pass a condemning judgment upon them such as, "You're going to hell!" Then this is one type of judgment that I am not to make, that is, to form an opinion and condemn, passing sentence, for I am guilty of sin as well. Also, if we weren't to make judgments, how could anyone perform the following?
"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
Regarding the above, it would require a believer to make a judgment about another believer who has wandered away from the truth in order to bring them back. In another place Jesus says, "“Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly”
Harsh, unforgiving judgment is wrong. We are “always to be gentle toward everyone” (Titus 3:2). And, as Jesus warned, “In the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you” (Mt.:7:2).
Self-righteous judgment is wrong. The Pharisee in Jesus’ parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector was confident in his own righteousness and from that proud position judged the tax collector; however, God sees the heart and the Pharisee went home unjustified (Luke 18:9-14).
Forgive me, but whenever I see the misuse of what it means to not judge I have to speak up. In Rom.2:1 Paul, in reference to the same-sex issue he previously addressed as well as with the myriad of sins that mentions after, the type of judgment that he is referring to is, forming an opinion and passing a condemning sentence, a desire for those sinners to be punished, when we ourselves are guilty of sin. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong for believers to form a judgment, that is, to form an opinion based on the word of God. In fact, we are supposed to make right judgments. Consider the scripture below as Paul is speaking to the Corinthians who had a believer in their ranks who was sleeping with his step mother:
"I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
"If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
Regarding the above, how is it that people say "Judge not lest you be judged?" First, we are not to pass a condemning judgment nor should we have a desire for people to be punished for their sins, seeing that we are just as guilty and are saved by grace through faith and not by our own righteousness. Second, when we make a judgment upon another believer, we should make sure that we are not doing the same things or worse, which is Jesus' example of having a board in our own eye. But what does Jesus say, first take the board out of your own eye then you will see clearly judge your brother and help him with the speck of dust in his.
The point is that, Many people use this verse in an attempt to silence their critics, interpreting Jesus’ meaning as “You don’t have the right to tell me I’m wrong.” As Christian's we are to discern between what is right or wrong based on the truth of God's word, therefore we making judgments daily.
I'll use the "same-sex" issue as an example: If someone claims to be a believer in Christ and makes it known to me that he/she is living a same-sex life style, at that moment I have already made a judgment based on the truth of God's word that this person is not living according to the word of God. And with the right opportunity and right spirit, I am going to make it know to them. Have I sinned in making this judgment? No! I have made a righteous judgment, which is glorifying to God and is a warning to the sinner. Now, if after finding out this information I pass a condemning judgment upon them such as, "You're going to hell!" Then this is one type of judgment that I am not to make, that is, to form an opinion and condemn, passing sentence, for I am guilty of sin as well. Also, if we weren't to make judgments, how could anyone perform the following?
"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
Regarding the above, it would require a believer to make a judgment about another believer who has wandered away from the truth in order to bring them back. In another place Jesus says, "“Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly”
Harsh, unforgiving judgment is wrong. We are “always to be gentle toward everyone” (Titus 3:2). And, as Jesus warned, “In the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you” (Mt.:7:2).
Self-righteous judgment is wrong. The Pharisee in Jesus’ parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector was confident in his own righteousness and from that proud position judged the tax collector; however, God sees the heart and the Pharisee went home unjustified (Luke 18:9-14).
Here is a picture of our relationship to God. We do not nor are we capable of loving ourselves before we get saved. God loves us and desires for us to be saved but He cannot draw near because of our sin.
You love your son but he does not love himself. All of nature cries out that Sodomy is unnatural. Sodomy like all sin reveals the rebel nature that is in man. Until your son gets so sick of himself and turns to God there is virtually nothing you can do. This from a parents perspective is very difficult to deal with. All the guilt and second guessing of what you did wrong or what you could do better to change the outcome.
This is a situation that you cannot change. You must trust God to change the situation. Intensified religious pressure will only drive your son even farther from God.
At the end of the day the only person you can change is yourself.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You love your son but he does not love himself. All of nature cries out that Sodomy is unnatural. Sodomy like all sin reveals the rebel nature that is in man. Until your son gets so sick of himself and turns to God there is virtually nothing you can do. This from a parents perspective is very difficult to deal with. All the guilt and second guessing of what you did wrong or what you could do better to change the outcome.
This is a situation that you cannot change. You must trust God to change the situation. Intensified religious pressure will only drive your son even farther from God.
At the end of the day the only person you can change is yourself.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
That verse that you keep on using Judge not lest you be judged is one of the most misused verses in the Bible and a lot of times is used out of context. To understand it Matthew 7:1-6 should be read and that has to do with hypocrisy not saying a sin is a sin. There are no militant Christian groups only the pro-homosexuality groups. Sadly, yes there have been Christian who just say this is a sin and don't have a relationship with homosexuals, which is sad. First of all, not all Christians are at fault, sadly some are. Righteous judgment is always a good thing, condemning judgment is not. There is nothing wrong with being angry unless one sins because one has become angry. Jesus was righteously angry when he turned over the moneychangers' tables since they violated the purpose of the temple, where scamming people, etc. He was killed because of a stupid vow that Herod made with his daughter when he was drunk and did not have his wits about him. As for Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel did confront him about him having the pride of life and making himself to be as a god. Yes, I know Jesus confronted the Pharisees over and over again because of their self-righteousness and them misrepresenting who God is to sinners. So there is nothing wrong with righteous judgement and one can be righteously angry and not sin due to it. God bless.
Y
Romans 1:18-32New International Version (NIV)
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, [SUP]19 [/SUP]since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools [SUP]23 [/SUP]and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. [SUP]25 [/SUP]They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. [SUP]27 [/SUP]In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. [SUP]29 [/SUP]They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, [SUP]30 [/SUP]slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; [SUP]31 [/SUP]they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Galatians 5:16-26New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[SUP][a][/SUP] you want. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; [SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions [SUP]21 [/SUP]and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Romans 8:5-17New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. [SUP]10 [/SUP]But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[SUP][a][/SUP] because of righteousness. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[SUP][b][/SUP] his Spirit who lives in you.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. [SUP]15 [/SUP]The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[SUP][c][/SUP] And by him we cry, “Abba,[SUP][d][/SUP] Father.” [SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, [SUP]19 [/SUP]since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools [SUP]23 [/SUP]and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. [SUP]25 [/SUP]They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. [SUP]27 [/SUP]In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. [SUP]29 [/SUP]They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, [SUP]30 [/SUP]slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; [SUP]31 [/SUP]they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Galatians 5:16-26New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[SUP][a][/SUP] you want. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; [SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions [SUP]21 [/SUP]and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Romans 8:5-17New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. [SUP]10 [/SUP]But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[SUP][a][/SUP] because of righteousness. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[SUP][b][/SUP] his Spirit who lives in you.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. [SUP]15 [/SUP]The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[SUP][c][/SUP] And by him we cry, “Abba,[SUP][d][/SUP] Father.” [SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
L
I believe that just as love is a choice, sinning is a choice so that it would fall under the "choice" category.
Doesn't mean people don't struggle with it and need love and encouragement in the right spirit.
God is amazing in His Grace when we cry out to Him in any struggle, or hurt, or pain. He is AWESOME. Praise Jesus Christ our KING!
Doesn't mean people don't struggle with it and need love and encouragement in the right spirit.
God is amazing in His Grace when we cry out to Him in any struggle, or hurt, or pain. He is AWESOME. Praise Jesus Christ our KING!